Old Steam Poll posts split and 'archived'

[X2-Eliah]

Wait, X:R won't be released on a console? BOOOO. My freedom of choice is limited!! I don't want no Windows/Linux crapware on my electronics, and I don't want no stupid operating systems JUST TO PLAY A GAME. +computers can get haxxorzed and stuff! If you force me to install an OS just to play a game, that's GAME OVER!!!!!

Egosoft, by limiting your game to the PC you are betraying your fanbase! You are selling out to Microsoft!!!!

Sound familiar? 'Cos the reasoning on paper sure is +- the same.

P.S. What I meant to say with this .... example... is an advice to folks to tone down the incessant, childish outrage and drama. Act level-headed, and your arguments won't be dismissed.

[David Howland]

AND ONE HAS TO ASK:-
If the update function has been made redundant?
If the devs community is made less important by RB taking off in console land where upgrades between game editions is seen as a loss of profit potential?
If ES no longer desire to notice the views of its oldest fans?

JUST HOW LONG ARE THEY GOING TO WASTE MONEY ON THIS SITE?

[chew-ie]

P.S. What I meant to say with this .... example... is an advice to folks to tone down the incessant, childish outrage and drama. Act level-headed, and your arguments won't be dismissed.

Good move to edit your post and add that paragraph - otherwise I´d refused to "feed the troll".

Anyway - so far this whole discussion isn´t made in the tone you showed in your "example". There are always emotional responses, from both sides (!), but the majority of posters here write long posts and describing in detail their arguments. From following both discussions (here and at the german board), those "outrages" only come up if someone (TM) from either side invalidates single / all arguments just to make a post.

[apricotslice]

If ES no longer desire to notice the views of its oldest fans?

JUST HOW LONG ARE THEY GOING TO WASTE MONEY ON THIS SITE?

Well now, that is a question.

[the-danzorz]

Wait, X:R won't be released on a console? BOOOO. My freedom of choice is limited!! I don't want no Windows/Linux crapware on my electronics, and I don't want no stupid operating systems JUST TO PLAY A GAME. +computers can get haxxorzed and stuff! If you force me to install an OS just to play a game, that's GAME OVER!!!!!

Egosoft, by limiting your game to the PC you are betraying your fanbase! You are selling out to Microsoft!!!!

Sound familiar? 'Cos the reasoning on paper sure is +- the same.

P.S. What I meant to say with this .... example... is an advice to folks to tone down the incessant, childish outrage and drama. Act level-headed, and your arguments won't be dismissed.

+1 for awesomeness right there!

To add something useful to this thread, Steam has more benefits then downsides and your consumer rights and freedom of choice isn't being abused or limited. Mostly all games install some 3rd party software, such as DRM, Punkbuster, Anti-Cheat Systems etc. These software come with the game to make it easier, better and more optimal to running the game because it offers benefits for everyone.

If your not going to buy XE because of steam, you shouldn't buy any games, for the pc, ever. Because they all come with additional software, drivers, updates, launchers and 3rd party software. Weather your fully aware of it or not.

[Cycrow]

X3TC had no freedom of choise either, You had to install tages, and u had to have it running to play the game

X3R was the same, you needed to install and keep loaded of Starforce.

X2, again the same.


also i lost my freedome of choise with what API to use for the game. So if i wanted to run the game with OpenGL i cant, because its tied to DirectX

[Antaran]

After reading other posts here on the forums it looks like players will be forced to use steam (Install steam client for activation or whatever) for this game, and that bites.

Preorder cancelled...
Hope you guys sell later a verison that has no ties to steam...

[chew-ie]

So, because we / you / whoever already lost choices in the past, it´s okay to loose just another one? And another? (etc..)

Also, I´d like to add that there is a difference in having things like Tages / Starforce (which have been removed by Egosoft) and a step like moving a game to Steam(works).

About OpenGL - full ack.

[the-danzorz]

After reading other posts here on the forums it looks like players will be forced to use steam (Install steam client for activation or whatever) for this game, and that bites.

Preorder cancelled...
Hope you guys sell later a verison that has no ties to steam...

Why make a thread about this? there's already a steam related thread that can you voice your opinion on.

[the-danzorz]

So, because we / you / whoever already lost choices in the past, it´s okay to loose just another one? And another? (etc..)

Also, I´d like to add that there is a difference in having things like Tages / Starforce (which have been removed by Egosoft) and a step like moving a game to Steam(works).

About OpenGL - full ack.

We're not losing a choice, its just the same as before but a different platform.

Also you can make a game that is steamworks, portable to not run on steam. People have done it with HL2 and GarrysMod.

[GCU Grey Area]

X3TC had no freedom of choise either, You had to install tages, and u had to have it running to play the game

X3R was the same, you needed to install and keep loaded of Starforce.

X2, again the same.

Personally have never had a problem with disk checks, particularly for X games as it happens - my games are shelved in alphabetical order, so X means they're on the lowest shelf, far right-hand side, precisely 22" away from the DVD drive of my computer (I just measured it). Takes very little effort to take a disk from the shelf & drop it into the drive. Not that I often need to, only a couple of my TC installations are patched at a level that still requires a disk check.

Certainly a lot more convenient than all the crawling about under the desk I need to do to swap round the network cable, simply to enable my main machine to talk to the internet. It's normally kept completely offline - I have a completely separate computer (far too obsolete to play recent games on) for internet use.

[apricotslice]

If your not going to buy XE because of steam, you shouldn't buy any games, for the pc, ever.

Well that looks like it will be the case. Sad, but true.

I see a huge difference between past copy protection mechanisms and steam.

The difference between a hammer and a pile driver.

Past copy protection has been pretty well invisible, and made no demands on you at all. Steam is highly visible, intrusive, demanding, and is so far across the line of what I consider acceptable, that its a no brainer decision not to have it on my computer.

And btw, I made the same choice with Impulse. When the Sins update got released through Impulse and you needed to sign up with impulse to get the download patch, I uninstalled Sins off my computer.

So this is not a recent decision on my part. Steam is just the latest example of something I've already rejected.

Certainly a lot more convenient than all the crawling about under the desk I need to do to swap round the network cable, simply to enable my main machine to talk to the internet. It's normally kept completely offline - I have a completely separate computer (far too obsolete to play recent games on) for internet use.

Actually at one stage, my games computer was isolated from the internet. It was deliberately kept off the net so it couldnt ever get a downloaded virus/trojan etc.

It was only after games started being released that only crashed after install and demanded that you download a huge patch to fix them before you could actually run it, that it became necessary to have internet on the games computer. And even then, once you downloaded the patch, you could disable the internet completely and isolate the computer again.

Not any more !

[the-danzorz]

X3TC had no freedom of choise either, You had to install tages, and u had to have it running to play the game

X3R was the same, you needed to install and keep loaded of Starforce.

X2, again the same.

Personally have never had a problem with disk checks, particularly for X games as it happens - my games are shelved in alphabetical order, so X means they're on the lowest shelf, far right-hand side, precisely 22" away from the DVD drive of my computer (I just measured it). Takes very little effort to take a disk from the shelf & drop it into the drive. Not that I often need to, only a couple of my TC installations are patched at a level that still requires a disk check.

Certainly a lot more convenient than all the crawling about under the desk I need to do to swap round the network cable, simply to enable my main machine to talk to the internet. It's normally kept completely offline - I have a completely separate computer (far too obsolete to play recent games on) for internet use.

As soon as you activate the game, run the game in offline mode. You shouldn't need to prompted to go back online at all. Not with single player games anyway, which XR is

If your not going to buy XE because of steam, you shouldn't buy any games, for the pc, ever.

Well that looks like it will be the case. Sad, but true.

I see a huge difference between past copy protection mechanisms and steam.

The difference between a hammer and a pile driver.

Past copy protection has been pretty well invisible, and made no demands on you at all. Steam is highly visible, intrusive, demanding, and is so far across the line of what I consider acceptable, that its a no brainer decision not to have it on my computer.

And btw, I made the same choice with Impulse. When the Sins update got released through Impulse and you needed to sign up with impulse to get the download patch, I uninstalled Sins off my computer.

So this is not a recent decision on my part. Steam is just the latest example of something I've already rejected.

DRM running in the Background has been known to be more dangerous, as it scans the drives and other things for any signs of piracy etc. Which broke user privacy rights etc, or it conflicted with drivers and other things. These types of DRMs are the reason we have applications like steam, you you can see what its doing and what its restricted too.

If you don't like these types or DRMs, then thats fair enough. You are opting out to playing PC games in general and i feel thats more your loss then anything.

Old DRM also was found to not be effective and easy to work around, steam isn't so much. As also said you can port the game out of steam so you don't even need steam installed. But that isn't that easy to do but maybe worth trying.

[perkint]

DRM is required, whether steam or not (Bernd suggested steam in itself is (was) not adequate).

So, Steam doesn't make any difference on that front. There will be 3rd party software which controls whether you can play the game or not. Only Steam includes anything in that check that is specific to you and your user account (ie not just a hardware disk check).

If the DRM is not tied in to Steam, following Egosofts track record it will probably be patched out after a year or so. That is very unlikely to happen with Steam.

Without Steam you can download updates from Egosoft on any computer and apply them whenever you wish, having complete control over what version you run. Also, you can play the game whilst downloading. With Steam you have the choice of turning off updates completely - not a good idea unless you like living with bugs/game issues and possible extra features (although they may be chargeable DLC going forwards) or not playing whilst it downloads and installs any update.

That steam provides more benefits than drawbacks is not really the point. Some people consider the drawbacks significantly more critical than the benefits which may well be things they will not use or want. Several people have already said this and I agree. OK - Steam also provides benefits to the developer. It makes things simpler for Egosoft and that is a benefit that only they can really quantify. Also, it is a decision which Deepsilver have taken and we have no information from them as to why (but it's a safe assumption that it is down to distribution costs, customer base and profit margins!).

Also, the fact that Steam's personal data T&C are American standard which does not give as much protection to the consumer as the UK/European OIC/DPR rules usually do is a concern for some.

Digital distribution is good. So is consumer choice and (personally) I value user control.

I never play music from CD or films from Blueray/DVD, but I do not buy any music or films in digital distribution. I prefer to own the disks so I can always re-create the digital version I actually use. Steamworks actually prevents that. Yeah, I can buy the disk, but during install Steam decides whether the data on the disk is of any use or whether it wants to get an updated version from it's own servers. Not something that will prevent me buying it from Steam (or Steamworks) but it is taking a choice away from me which I like to have...

@esd - Xbox 360 checks game versions on startup/install and whinges unless you update. But, it doesn't (usually?) require you to do the update - it'll let you play signed out...

Tim

[perkint]

@the-danzorz - glad you edited your post! I certainly felt the need to respond to what you initially had in it!

Anyway - agreed - this should be in the existing Steam thread...

Tim

[vr01]

If your not going to buy XE because of steam, you shouldn't buy any games, for the pc, ever.

Well that looks like it will be the case. Sad, but true.

I see a huge difference between past copy protection mechanisms and steam.

The difference between a hammer and a pile driver.

Past copy protection has been pretty well invisible, and made no demands on you at all. Steam is highly visible, intrusive, demanding, and is so far across the line of what I consider acceptable, that its a no brainer decision not to have it on my computer.

And btw, I made the same choice with Impulse. When the Sins update got released through Impulse and you needed to sign up with impulse to get the download patch, I uninstalled Sins off my computer.

So this is not a recent decision on my part. Steam is just the latest example of something I've already rejected.

I'd put it to you that you have it the wrong way around...

Previous methods were hidden installs, subject to activation limits, caused conflicts with devices / software and notoriously difficult to remove without doing a full re-install of Windows...

At least with Steam I know that it is there and what it is doing... (which is nothing)

Certainly a lot more convenient than all the crawling about under the desk I need to do to swap round the network cable, simply to enable my main machine to talk to the internet. It's normally kept completely offline - I have a completely separate computer (far too obsolete to play recent games on) for internet use.

Actually at one stage, my games computer was isolated from the internet. It was deliberately kept off the net so it couldnt ever get a downloaded virus/trojan etc.

It was only after games started being released that only crashed after install and demanded that you download a huge patch to fix them before you could actually run it, that it became necessary to have internet on the games computer. And even then, once you downloaded the patch, you could disable the internet completely and isolate the computer again.

Not any more !

And you could do exactly the same with Steam's offline mode... :sigh:

[perkint]

And you could do exactly the same with Steam's offline mode... :sigh:

Except that prevents you from being able to update the game. Which you could do without Steam, if you downloaded the patch on another machine.

Tim

[GCU Grey Area]

As soon as you activate the game, run the game in offline mode. You shouldn't need to prompted to go back online at all. Not with single player games anyway, which XR is

Fine until I need to patch it. Egosoft are good at releasing frequent patches, but they're often rather big & I don't want the long wait while they download at home (preventing me from playing while they do that), or for them to count against my monthly usage limit, when there are MUCH faster unmetered connections I can use elsewhere.

Also would like to make it plain I'm not anti-steam. If some people want to buy XR from Steam they should be able to & I would in no way want to prevent them from doing that. I do understand that for some people it can be quite useful, especially for people in areas of the world where there can be difficulties obtaining a disk copy (e.g. early versions of TC). It just doesn't offer any real benefits for me, much of what Steam does is of absolutely no interest to me & the rest causes more problems than it's worth.

[the-danzorz]

I think its come to the point where the thread is purely making a full rotation and repeating itself.

Here is a very valid solution, Make a new thread and have a yes / no / don't mind poll going on and voice your opinion ( no debate, just replying saying, i don't want steam because, or i want steam because) after a week of votes send it to developers and publishers and demand them they do what the community asks.

This poll isn't really that informative and with this thread now being 54+ pages long. finding information is hard and its mostly opinions going back and forth.

If your SO against steam, voice it in a plain format, demanding a change and see what happens. make a bigger message and see what happens.

[perkint]

That won't work, as you can't control what people post in a thread. And as has been shown in here, and as you say, people will keep posting the same things and disagreeing with each other and arguing over the same points.

I think it may be a little late now, but it may have been worth creating a new thread with more balanced poll options. And this thread is now so huge finding anything is hard work - I didn't fancy trying to dig out Bernd's comment suggesting Steam was not an adequate DRM on it's own.

BTW - the main point is not whether the game should come out on Steam, but whether there should be a non Steam choice. It is just the arguments that have become "Steam is great" vs "Steam is the devil's tool".

Tim