Military Competition

jimlpearce · Post by **jimlpearce** » Wed, 10. Mar 10, 19:10

Every mod of this type that you add reduces the players understanding of how the game works. It makes more sense to me to just have vanilla NPC battles. Most players have a better understanding of this. Even with Gazz's turret mod it will affect the effectiveness of some vanilla player's choices.

I think an agreed upon rule-set such as a limit on missile craft or the number of missiles they can hold for a battle makes more sense... plus M7M's are not necessarily I win buttons in NPC hands in vanilla... eg no missile barrages.

Gazz · Post by **Gazz** » Wed, 10. Mar 10, 19:15

jimlpearce wrote: M7M's are not necessarily I win buttons in NPC hands in vanilla... eg no missile barrages.

Whenever M7M turrets open fire at all, they autofire nonstop (all at the same target!) until they run out of missiles or live targets.
This is far worse than barrages because there is no limitation at all.

If the amount of missiles in the hold exceeds the combined shield and hull strength of a closely concentrated enemy fleet, then this fleet ceases to exist.
Well, provided the M7M lives long enough to launch all missiles.

jimlpearce · Post by **jimlpearce** » Wed, 10. Mar 10, 19:22

Gazz wrote:
jimlpearce wrote: M7M's are not necessarily I win buttons in NPC hands in vanilla... eg no missile barrages.
Whenever M7M turrets open fire at all, they autofire nonstop (all at the same target!) until they run out of missiles or live targets.
This is far worse than barrages because there is no limitation at all.

Fair enough... I've only ever witnessed NPC ones I've been capping and even when full of missiles they never launched more than 5 or 6 over 5-10 minutes... and I'm not stupid enough to let the AI have any missile firing privileges with my M7Ms.

In that case I vote for either limiting the missile fire probability or simply not allowing them or M8s at all. Battles would probably be more interesting to watch that way... or lots of big ships will just crash into each other... one of the two!

Gazz · Post by **Gazz** » Wed, 10. Mar 10, 19:30

jimlpearce wrote:Fair enough... I've only ever witnessed NPC ones I've been capping and even when full of missiles they never launched more than 5 or 6 over 5-10 minutes...

Were you a proper enemy of that race at the time?

jimlpearce · Post by **jimlpearce** » Wed, 10. Mar 10, 19:46

Gazz wrote:
jimlpearce wrote:Fair enough... I've only ever witnessed NPC ones I've been capping and even when full of missiles they never launched more than 5 or 6 over 5-10 minutes...
Were you a proper enemy of that race at the time?

IIRC yes... Paranid Ares with about 50 hammers and 100 flails in pirate alley (and 2 Hades with some missiles in the support fleet too)... They were aggressive and hostile as soon as they entered the sector and it still had ninety-some flails in the cargobay when I capped it (hammers must have been destroyed during boarding but it only launched 1 or 2). I have capped others full of missiles from races that were not full on enemies and they rarely ever launched any missiles at all despite turning hostile well before marines were launched.

I recently had to restart from scratch due to some problems with my system so I'll be going after an M7M or 2 within the next week or so and paranid and boron are both fully enemy to me and so it is likely I'll target their ships... I'll keep an eye out to see if I get any higher launch rates if they happen to be carrying missiles. I'm not trying to argue with you... just talking from my experience.

Mutiny · Post by **Mutiny** » Thu, 11. Mar 10, 18:46

So is it worth me carrying on trying to make this happen or are my actions going to be pointless?

I would like to hear from people whether or not they are interested in playing.

sovereignT · Post by **sovereignT** » Thu, 11. Mar 10, 21:57

Mutiny wrote:So is it worth me carrying on trying to make this happen or are my actions going to be pointless?

I would like to hear from people whether or not they are interested in playing.

If this is going to be done right with recorded battles uploaded to youtube or elsewhere, I would LOVE to see this happen. Seriously awesome idea. I also think it would be far more appropriate to keep this completely "vanilla" in terms to combat mods to make it the most accessible.

EmperorJon · Post by **EmperorJon** » Thu, 11. Mar 10, 22:10

I'd participate. I'm working out a 500M cr fleet as we speak.

As for M8/M7M etc. how about limiting it somehow?

Eg.

M1 - n/a
M2 - n/a
M3 - >v
M4 - Each fighter class ship needs a docking bay of some sort
M5 - >^
M6 - Needs 1 M7 for each 2 M6s
M7 - Needs 1 M1/M2 for each 2 M7s
M7M - Needs 2 M7 for each
M8 - Needs 1 M6 for each

Ideas peeps?

Makes the game harder, but stops missile spam. If you think about it, 1x M7M = 10 M8, so M8s would dominate everything if there were a few Flak frigates to protect them... or a fighter screen.

There needs to be a limit.

Oh and Race Shipyards? Include OTAS?

RyuKazuha · Post by **RyuKazuha** » Thu, 11. Mar 10, 22:21

Forcing someone to take 3 M2 into account, if he wants 6 M7, is a bit...

Well, its not really benefiting the idea imho.

Also, M8 and M7M in AI-hands are not that deadly, at least not in my experience.

However, if you want to limit their use, limit the amount of missiles per Ship to a certain number.

EmperorJon · Post by **EmperorJon** » Thu, 11. Mar 10, 22:27

Yes, I can admit I didn't think that bit through amazingly.

But I'll stick with:

Each fighter class ship needs a docking bay of some sort

How about, the cost of missiles and weapons is maximum? Not average?

Jimyd · Post by **Jimyd** » Fri, 12. Mar 10, 10:06

*****

All Scenarios:

*No Mines/Lasertowers/OWPs/Satellites/Factories of any kind.
*PALC is allowed on Ships, but none of the other Experimental Lasers.
*All Ships are forced to have every Ship Extension installed.
- (No Cargo Bay Shielding/SOS/SSS/Jumpdrive installed.)
*All Ships are forced to be fully Tuned Ships(but no Over-Tuning).
*All Ships are allowed to completely fill their Cargo Bay.
*Player can choose between Default%/10%/25%/50%/75%/90% for Missle Fire Rate per a Ship Class.
*Completely Vanilla Game Scripts(besides the Cheat Script).
- (Sorry Gazz, no Turret Scripts.)
*All Ships are forced into 1 Wing, Player chooses Wing Formation.
*All Ships that are "Docked" have their "Homebase" assigned to the Ship they are "Docked" at.
*Wing is given Attack All Enemies Command to start the battle.

*****

Scenario 1(Small Combat):

*50 Ships.
*50% or more of a fleet can not be of "Huge Class"(M1/M2/M7/M7M/TL) ships.
*TL/TM/TP/TS are the only ones allowed to carry Drones.
*Terran/ATF TL/TM/TP/TS are limited to the Keris/Freight Drones.
*Argon/Boron/Paranid/Split/Teladi/Pirate/Yaki/OTAS/Goner TL/TM/TP/TS are limited to MK1/MK2/Freight Drones.
*Xenon/Khaak Ships may not carry Drones.
*Khaak/Aldrin Ships count as 2 Ships.
*All Drones count as 1 Ship.

*****

Scenario 2(Point System): This is the one I prefer.

*100 Ship Points.
*100 Drone Points.
*50% or more of a fleet can not be of "Huge Class"(M1/M2/M7/M7M/TL) ships.
*TL/TM/TP/TS are the only ones allowed to carry Drones.
*Terran/ATF TL/TM/TP/TS are limited to the Keris/Freight Drones.
*Argon/Boron/Paranid/Split/Teladi/Pirate/Yaki/OTAS/Goner TL/TM/TP/TS are limited to MK1/MK2/Freight Drones.
*Xenon/Khaak Ships may not carry Drones.
*Khaak/Aldrin Ships have a +1 extra Ship Point attached to its cost.
*Drones are free, but you can only have a Max of 100 between the whole fleet.
*MK2/Keris Drones count as 2 Drone Points.

-Ship Point Ranking System-

- M5/M4/M4+/M3/M3+/TM/TS/TP = 1 Ship Point
- M8/M6 = 2 Ship Points
- M6 Heavy = 3 Ship Points
- M7/M7M/TL = 5 Ship Points
- M1 = 7 Ship Points
- M2 = 10 Ship Points

*****

I think that pretty much covers everything. If I have missed explaining something, please let me know. I'll edit to better explain it in the rules.

Jimyd · Post by **Jimyd** » Fri, 12. Mar 10, 10:57

Better yet, we can have 2 Brackets, 1 for each Scenario.

That might be good. Each Player can enter 1 Fleet for each Bracket.

Elimination style Bracket, where at the end... Scenario 1 and 2 Finale Winners face off their Fleets against each other, for the Grand Cup.

http://www.wvmat.com/brackets/bracket18.jpg

Whoever makes it to the end of each Bracket faces off against each other basically.

I suggest 16(would be better and faster)/32 Teams per a Bracket, to keep it small, fun, and your sanity.

Youtube recording would be awesome. Someone could basically setup the Savegame, transfer it to person recording, and then the person uploading to Youtube can just basically run the Attack All Enemies Command for both Fleets when ready.

You would just have to make sure you only have the Cheat Script installed for those of you who are Official Handlers of the games.

*****

If you want to make this a semi-serious production, this is the maximum staff you could have.

*Person setting up the Fleets/Savegames.
*Person recording with good video and audio equipment/programs.
*Person who can upload to 720HD/1080HD.
- (This slot can be done by the person recording, but doubles the process time.)
*Person(s) Commentating the Match after the Raw Footage is uploaded.
- (This slot can be done by any of previous 3 above, but would double their workload.)
*A Referee who get a copy of the final Savegames, to be reviewed while production is going. This is to make sure no mistakes have been made setting up the Fleets, and that no BRIBES

were taken.

Gazz · Post by **Gazz** » Fri, 12. Mar 10, 11:26

*TL/TM/TP/TS are the only ones allowed to carry Drones.

Only TS (and maybe TP) deploy drones at all in vanilla X3 - when under attack.
They'd be completely pointless on TL/TM. (and maybe TP)

Even on TS they protect the TS exclusively and it's unlikely they'd "join the fight" after the TS is destroyed - which won't take long.

To make use of drones you'd need to attach a custom SecondarySignalAttacked to the "drone launchers" for the sole purpose of launching them.
Simply spawning all drones at the start of the fight with "attack all enemies" is another alternative...

*Drones are free, but you can only have a Max of 100 between the whole fleet.
*MK2/Keris Drones count as 2 Drone Points.

Mk2/Keris have about 8 times the firepower of Mk1.
50 Mk2 equal the consistent firepower of your average M2.
By these rules, anyone chosing not to use drones at all is at a severe disadvantage through losing a whole M2's worth.

*Khaak/Aldrin Ships count as 2 Ships.

Khaak cap ships are terrible against commonwealth cap ships and could only compete using superior numbers.

Khaak (and terran) cap ships are excellent against fighters, though.

- (Sorry Gazz, no Turret Scripts.)
*All Ships are forced into 1 Wing, Player chooses Wing Formation.

Wings cannot be used because that is a player-only feature.
Vanilla capital ship turret scripts work differently when used by an AI ship so it's not a fair fight if one of the participating races is "player".

Also, AI ships automatically select which script to use for which turret. Another item that would skew the results.

Jimyd · Post by **Jimyd** » Fri, 12. Mar 10, 11:34

Ok ya I'll be doing some editing.

I do realise Khaak Non-Capital Ships are weaker, so they are not meant to be used in mass for a Fleet.

But the Capital Ships from the Khaak are useful.

BTW, by Aldrin Ships, I meant ALDRIN Ships. Not Terran and ATF Ships.

And yes, all Ships will be Non-Player, so they both use the A.I. Turret scripts.

This adds to the slight randomness fun factor.

*NOTE*

To everyone reading this, it is 2:40 A.M. PST for me. I am going to bed, and will change the rule list to better explain and accommodate what Gazz has said later today.

Gazz · Post by **Gazz** » Fri, 12. Mar 10, 12:08

Another item: fight skill. (ranges from 0-30)

A ships "pilot skill" affects (cockpit) missile launches, evasion, defense against missiles (using both cockpit guns and missiles), and attack runs.
Also affects capital ship turrets.

"Military" ships typically have skills in the low-mid 20s, Xenon high 20s, Traders maybe 1-10 and Pirates all over the board.

Ships belonging to "player" adopt the player's current fight skill at the time of their creation so it's not tied to anything that makes sense.

All fighters can increase their fight skill through surviving encounters. Cap ships do not.

The exact worth of fight skill has not been tested, yet.
These "Warhammer armies" might be useful to shed some light on it but withough knowing the effects it's hard to assign a point cost to "fleet experience".
Like a 100 Point pool of green ships vs a 70 point pool of veteran ships.

Hmm, if you're scripting anyway, you might wanna attach a secondary Signal_Killed to all those ships to log the time (from start of encounter) of their demise and what killed them.
And the log should also print the winner's list of surviving ships.
Just knowing who won isn't very informative.

Ideally the log would have the starting fleets / conditions as well so it's one report file with all relevant information. Would save a lot of note scribbling. =)

Mutiny · Post by **Mutiny** » Fri, 12. Mar 10, 17:58

Thanks to gazz and jimyd for their repsonses

im liking the points system, will save a lot of time working out if players have gone over their budget, imo maybe some of the amount of points for ships should be adjusted e.g 10 m5s costing the same as a m2

Gazz wrote: Hmm, if you're scripting anyway, you might wanna attach a secondary Signal_Killed to all those ships to log the time (from start of encounter) of their demise and what killed them.
And the log should also print the winner's list of surviving ships.
Just knowing who won isn't very informative.

Ideally the log would have the starting fleets / conditions as well so it's one report file with all relevant information. Would save a lot of note scribbling. =)

The logging would be a very nice touch, perhaps the logs would be available for their next opponent allowing the opponent to adjust his fleet

A ships "pilot skill" affects (cockpit) missile launches, evasion, defense against missiles (using both cockpit guns and missiles), and attack runs.
Also affects capital ship turrets.

Is there anyway of controlling and changing the pilot skills of ships?

EmperorJon · Post by **EmperorJon** » Fri, 12. Mar 10, 18:28

Rewards might be nice too.

Mutiny · Post by **Mutiny** » Fri, 12. Mar 10, 19:38

i havent had any decent ideas for prizes just yet, one of the rewards could be a title e.g champion of ....

EmperorJon · Post by **EmperorJon** » Fri, 12. Mar 10, 19:50

I thought, if we're limiting certain things then un-limit them?

Eg. Only ships which can be bought at shipyard.

You win -> Allowed ships which are variants but unbuyable (Falcon Sentinel etc.)
Win again -> Allowed ships which aren't buyable but cappable (Xenon, Kha'ak, Pirate ships)

After many wins -> Allowed basically any ship in the actual game?

I liked the simplest idea of the lot. No real silly rules, just:

500M
All equipment/weapons cost average
All ships cost usual price
Allowed all upgrades/weapons etc
A few limits to ships allowed
A few limits to the ship classes. Maybe a limit to M7M or M8?

Then you decided the rest. You set all your weapons, missile fire rate, and even wings.

How about a tactical start? You can place the ships within a certain area? So capitals at front, flak gaurding them, maybe a fighter wing behind and M8 and M6 protection to the rear?

Cpt.Jericho · Post by **Cpt.Jericho** » Fri, 12. Mar 10, 20:10

I just wonder about how you set all turrets? I mean, attack all enemy is not pretty good. I wouldn't want my PPCs chasing M5. Attacking capships with flaks isn't much more useful. If you set all turrets by hand, well, that's pretty much work to do first.

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Military Competition