Complex builders' block (resolved)

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jlehtone
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Complex builders' block (resolved)

Post by jlehtone »

Asteroids: Light of Heart, done
Building of Mines: Teladi L, done
Towing of Mines: nice stack near southern gate, done
Calculation of needed support factories: trivial, check
Funds for build: no need to count, done
TL capacity: plentiful, check
Skill to make somewhat neat complex: good enough
Needed end-products: about none
Inspiration to do the actual build: nearly non-existent


Trivial operation, but no need to do it. Best of all, what to build is a moving target. A week ago I would have gone for APBE, the most expensive ware per cargo unit. Now, Firestorm Torpedo, the ultimate anti-fighter weapon could be the main product. This is the nature of the sandbox; you do whatever you desire to do. Or don't. Yet. 8)
Last edited by jlehtone on Fri, 23. Feb 07, 18:20, edited 1 time in total.
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apogee
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Post by apogee »

I've never really planned a large complex, they tend to just evolve or smaller compexes close together get merged to make a super spaghetti complex!

As for building pretty well placed complexes i dont have the patience, they all turn out as spaghetti. What i do do is make sure they are all off flight paths, and that the initial hub is placed in the most suitable position so none of my frighters have to navigate the spaghetti mess to get to other fabs.

I suppose the biggest complex i constructed that was planned and self sufficient was for 6 GPPC fabs.
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Etolf
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Post by Etolf »

I've never built a really big complex, as I hate it when it all slows down in that sector.. instead I have a lot of smaller complexes all round the universe... and have no problem going anywhere... I'd hate to build a huge complex and then be unable to defend it because the frame rate was too low... I think too that to have lots of smaller complexes, and several stand alone factories stimulates the economy of the universe much better too, and your UTs do better and further stimulate it.
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Post by jlehtone »

Etolf wrote:I think too that to have lots of smaller complexes, and several stand alone factories stimulates the economy of the universe much better too, and your UTs do better and further stimulate it.
That is true. I use Trading Stations to do the stimulation.
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Post by apogee »

Most of my complexes are small, maybe just the end product producer and the fab that produces the resource required that is not available in the surrounding sectors, i tend to then use freighers to buy any other resources, using the station manager software on most of these fabs. A large majority of my fabs are still stand alone though.

Gotta say that Olmanketslats treaty takes about 1 min to load and flying through there is a bit jerkey, there must be about 30 fabs/complexes in there which i built over time.
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Post by KipperTheFish »

Large complexes do have their uses, like a one-stop shop for outfitting new ships.
I've built one in Antigone Memorial that kits out M3's, 25mj shields,MD's and ammo, AHEPT's and an assortment of missiles.
As for the frame rate, well, just build in sectors that you never travel through.
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Post by jlehtone »

KipperTheFish wrote:As for the frame rate, well, just build in sectors that you never travel through.
My thoughts exactly. Sadly, there are foggy Boron sectors I do not fancy seeing, but have no rocks worth a build.

The only thing that could really threaten an OOS complex is a Kha'ak invasion. Do they ever happen? (I don't mean the two near the beginning of the game.) Or scripts that spawn similar fleets.
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Post by KipperTheFish »

If you build in a "safe sector" the AI patrols will overwatch for you. If you need to proved your own security, then a lone M6 on "patrol sector" should be enough.
As for full on Kha'ak invasions, its very rare, when you get the station under attck message, personnel attention is required. If you've build a complex then you will probibly have access to an Elephant, that'll do the job.
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Post by Geggo »

jlehtone wrote: The only thing that could really threaten an OOS complex is a Kha'ak invasion. Do they ever happen? (I don't mean the two near the beginning of the game.) Or scripts that spawn similar fleets.
But isn't an khaak destroyer weak OOS when it's facing a fully GPPC loaded destroyer? (that ofcourse depends on luck of the draw and exactly which numbers are used in the actual calculations)

hard to test in khaak sectors since there's some competition....
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Post by apogee »

To be honest , i have never had a ship attack any of my stations that could in any way do them any harm, yes the odd group of pirates may have a go but they are easily despatched!
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Post by jlehtone »

I have seen in my game a pair of Pirate Falcons to take out first Argon Trade Dock and then a Cahoona Bakery. I had to check old saves to find out how many hours it did took from them to do that. The current Xenon patrols probably have firepower to take down a station relatively quickly, but I've never seen them even attempt that. Khaak clusters frequently attack (NPC) stations, but they are easy to handle and not very threatening.

Player can naturally cause the appearance of assassination or Xenon Taxi/Invasion fleets. But those are no surprise attacks. And one really should think twice before spawning them in low framerate sector with plenty of player factories.


Side-step back to original topic. My current shopping list stands:
3 * 5 MJ
1 * Tempest
1 * Typhoon
4 * Firestorm
1 * APPC
7 * APBE

No matter what I eventually choose to build, there will be 53 stations in that complex.
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Storm666
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Re: Complex builders' block

Post by Storm666 »

jlehtone wrote:Inspiration to do the actual build: nearly non-existent
Boy do I know that feeling... its happening again :(

I've just completed the first phase of a Equipment dock supply complex making all the weapons for sale at my newly bought Equipment docks (5 currently).

The current complex has five each of the weapon factories and their support food factories and power (Ore and crystals are shipped in).

It tops out at 138 factories in the complex and I'm having a hard time getting the inspiration to start on the next phases (sheilds and missiles (I want an all-in-one supply complex, well I've never done it before)). I know i have the room to add the rest to the complex and the cash wont be much of a problem but... I just dont have the will, and the frame rate in that sector is starting to bug me!

But hey it felt good when I first started the supply ship off on its first run with the weapons :)
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Post by Deleted User »

Most players seem to get to the stage when they should be thinking about
building factories for producing alternative / luxury / specialist goods.

On my list of things to make at factories are:

[ external image ]


aha ! my bacon Quiche just finished cooking ...
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Post by -Dusty- »

jlehtone wrote:Inspiration to do the actual build: nearly non-existent
I know that feeling very well... I'm workin at a complex with 856 factories - I've finished the mines yet - and now I'm building the crystal fabs... But the worst thing is connecting the factories at the end, I' really dont wanna do that... All that isn't funny, it's extremely hard work^^ (But I would do everything for huge profits... so I think I build this complex - eventually... :D )
Now I've got ~15 fps in the sector, but at the end it will be <1 :shock:
I hope my computer survives that :roll:

Again... sry for my bad english
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Kazuma
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Post by Kazuma »

Someone with a nack for engrish and german really should come up with a conversion for the station placement script... some of the german complexes are downright sexy... :cry:
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Post by -Dusty- »

@Kazuma: I think you mean that Script? Yeah, it's great...
But Triple81 isn't active anymore, so the script wasn't actualiced since some months... But a member of the complexbuildinguild is writing the whole script new, and maybe will this version be translated :)
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Post by jlehtone »

The Factory Complex Constructor. There ought to be english translation of the language file and the readme for the triple81's version of it somewhere.

So Profitlord clearly intents to be the Number 1 supplier of Tractors for farmers. :wink:

That will be one massive self-sufficient complex. Gigasectorcomplex. A classic closed loop. But what is a closed loop to the NPC economy? Practically nothing. The only interaction is the selling of product. No other trade. And if the end-product is sold manually by the player to a non-stocking EQdock, it will not affect any NPC stock in any NPC station. The complex does not exist, as far as the NPC economy is conserned. The only indirect effect on the NPC economy is that the player is self-sufficient on the product (weapons) and thus will buy less NPC product. With Tractor Beams, that is hardly an effect.

But related to that is the question of what does GoD actually look at? If there is a NPC factory in a sector, GoD can look at its status and decide to delete it or add more of the same type. But if there are none (for whatever reason), what makes the GoD to add the first NPC factory? Roll of dice? Or does it look at player factories? But how could it? With scripts around, there is no way for the GoD to determine if a player factory trades with the NPC or not. And looking at the status of a factory that is part of a closed loop will tell nothing about the economic situation in the area.

If GoD looks at player factories, the player can affect the economy by doing nothing, since closed loops are nothing.
If GoD does not look at player factories, the actions of player are indirect, because only the change in the state of the NPC factories as a result of the trade made by the player factories is seen by the GoD.

But look at simple complex that does trade. Wheat&Distillery. Buys Energy and sells Fuel. The consumption of ECells may cause the GoD to add SPP's, but it may as well reduce the number of other ECell consumers. The consumption of Fuel is said to be huge. Fuel is not a primary resource to anyone. I doubt that a player booze complex affects NPC Distilleries.

Trade of Energy, Minerals, and Food should affect the NPC economy. But one must trade the NPC end-products as well to keep their high end industry running and thus have market for low end products. As I said earlier, I have Trading Stations that do all the trade with NPC. They buy from NPC and sell to NPC. Others use UT's for that. Or get it as side-effect when their reason to use UT's are simply the profits. I do not need profits, so I don't care about them.


Dave, could one make a Wildlife starter pack out of Markus' Spacefly eggs? :wink:


I do not seem to make any PAC yet. Maybe it is time for first Paranid factories in my property list? (Not counting the one consulted by Ms Julia Kho.) :roll:
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Post by -Dusty- »

jlehtone wrote:So Profitlord clearly intents to be the Number 1 supplier of Tractors for farmers. :wink:
Sure :mrgreen:

And I fully agree with your opinion about such complexes. But it's just the best way to make profit...
And I think I'm doing a lot for "God" :D I've got some small self-supplying complexes that sell only energy cells for 12 credits - Those sectors are now full of NPC-factories.
And in the beginning of the game I built drug- and food-complexes all over the universe - they buy ECells and sell drugs or 2nd resources.
"My" God is still building new NPC factories, so I think my economic policy isn't too bad :D

Anyway: Maybe it doesn't make much sense to build huge self-supplying Tractorbeam-complexes, but I don't know a better challenge in complex building... :D
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Post by jlehtone »

Profitlord [KBG] wrote:And I think I'm doing a lot for "God" :D I've got some small self-supplying complexes that sell only energy cells for 12 credits - Those sectors are now full of NPC-factories.
I think I have to do similar thing. Not so much for economy, but for my trade networks. I use Commercial Agents (CAG/HVT) as buyers in Trade Docks. They have jumpdrives and thus need fuel. But the other side, the salesmen, are Trade Mk1. They sell the fuel too efficiently. So I cannot trade ECells via Trade Docks. I just have to flood the ECell market everywhere with SPP's of my own.

And I have a plan for that. Big Crystal production line in Barren Shores (Karge Wüste) or similar source of Silicon. Then I can just place standalone SPP's around. IMO that is better than small complexes all around.
Anyway: Maybe it doesn't make much sense to build huge self-supplying Tractorbeam-complexes, but I don't know a better challenge in complex building... :D
Neither do I. I intend to build into that sector. One day.
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Post by -Dusty- »

jlehtone wrote:And I have a plan for that. Big Crystal production line in Barren Shores (Karge Wüste) or similar source of Silicon. Then I can just place standalone SPP's around. IMO that is better than small complexes all around.
Maybe... But I don't like any freighters, so I prefer the small complexes :D
But there's one problem with selling ECells in masses... I've seen that most of the factories in the sectors with the SPP's are level 1 - factories - they produce a lot of argnus, bogas or whatever... But there are no buyers for all their products, so these factories don't make much profit and get "killed" by God. I think UT's could be a solution for that problem... I should get some of them, I had 25 earlier in the game, but in this time nearly all of them were killed by pirates... or roids :mrgreen:

By the way: I first thought of build a tractorbeam-complex in Barren Shores... It would be perfect cause of the complex needs only silicon, but then I decided to build in Savage Spur :D
jlehtone wrote:Neither do I. I intend to build into that sector. One day.
Erm... have fun. :lol:

Hm... now I've got to get some money for my complex - atm I've got only 2,3 Billions, and I need 6,7 :shock:

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