X4 with some procedural content but classic X style...impossible?

[Realspace]

well..sorry for this rant, I never made since in 2006 I joined the community, but for futile as it is I'd like to add my hope to the many...I'll try to be as concise as possible.

I consider X and Rebirth two different games, very different. What I'd like to see is the same level of detail of Rebirth, but the playability of previous games.

I think that what made X serie so successfull is the many things to do in gameplay, simulation was always a secondary aspect. I appreciate that Egosoft implemented the simulation aspect in Rebirth (in not always important features, not all at least, according to my taste of course).

Today space games are reborn and go in a new directions, try and use procedural content (and many probably fail due to the lack of playabile content)..but what about using some (repeat: some, not all) procedural contents and make this universe a bit diverse?

Given the incredible effort used into designing such huge detailed cities in space..that at the end nobody explores (just another space station after all), why not to put them on the surface of a planet as separated cities? And leave the space diverse. I express better..

Immagine all that incredibly well hand-made stuff put on procedurally generated surfaces. This can be moons (very easy, even 10 years old programs can proceduraly generate them very well) or rare inhabitable planets (they are rare indeed), as the homelands of each race, so no more than 4-5 planets with atmosphere. The rest is gas giants (where you can have the gas zones with resources, not in empty space), empty rocky planets (but with mines, etc) moons, asteroid fileds etc. and far away behind them you can have hidden bases, treasures, pirates, etc.

For the rest some stations as in X3 orbiting around and in connection points, jump points, gates, whatever.

Imagine this universe that has both the level of detail of Rebirth but only there where it makes sense and a (much more expanded) space as in X3.

Imagine those huge freighters that can not land on planets but are used for universe trading, while other kinds of ships can, connecting surface and space, just to say a thing.

I'm not expert at all but quite sure that a good procedural engine is very easy to implement today or very cheap to buy. I think that the only reason why procedurally planets are not used depends on their emptiness, so very cute at beginning but boring in the end.

But put there all those cities and activities (we already see in Rebirth) and they come alive. Procedural and hand-made content together, that rocks!

I'm quite sure that sectors of Rebirth, if put on planetary surface and moons, would look very different. Now they are only the repetition of crowded zones that gives a sense of..well, you say, and at the end the universe appears even smaller than in X3 (but isn't).

A game like this, even if not with infinite stars as in Elite (who cares? I don't have 1000 years of lifetime to explore them all..and to what aim?), even just few inhabitated planets, some moons etc, but with the right balance between empty spaces, far away travels and crowded planetary areas, would kick the ass of all other games, look amazing and huge even being as big as Rebirth actually is (and implemented afterwards with DLC and mods but still great at beginning), and keep the dimension of previous games with a big sense of exploration.

I don't care about walking in station, talking with people, that's another kind of game, just give us a SPACE game.

I know, I'm just dreaming..

[XenonSurf]

Making X:Rebirth with the features of X3 has been suggested 1000 times as for now, repeating it again will not make the devs change course IMO.

Procedural generated terrains, objects, NPCs etc. require a special dedicated engine that supports it and such one doesn't spawn out of nowhere but requires years of development outside from any game release. See No Man's Sky for this.
I guess Egosoft has some good features in their drawers for future games, but I don't see them 'suddenly' change for this type of game coding that would require a total new design direction, at least for the comming years. But I welcome them to prove me wrong ofc

I think my improvement wishes for X4 will have to be ripped down for much more than all you are suggesting...

XenonS

[Realspace]

Well..procedural things are not that difficoult actually, c'mon! and I really don't get the design of this game, at the end you have cities in space and it is pointless, pur those cities spawned on planetary surfaces and add X3's style stations in open space, make exploration have some meaning... and please remove highways! ...and what's the point of zones? I don't even get the sensation of being in space, at least in X2/X3 you had the illusion of it even if it is made of rooms.

Systems are so small that they looks like a pool table, full of spheres in a tiny space, the superhighway minigame....man I don't want a simulator but the illusion of being in space if this is a space game

[tresstarling]

Well..procedural things are not that difficoult actually, c'mon! and I really don't get the design of this game, at the end you have cities in space and it is pointless, pur those cities spawned on planetary surfaces and add X3's style stations in open space, make exploration have some meaning... and please remove highways! ...and what's the point of zones? I don't even get the sensation of being in space, at least in X2/X3 you had the illusion of it even if it is made of rooms.

Systems are so small that they looks like a pool table, full of spheres in a tiny space, the superhighway minigame....man I don't want a simulator but the illusion of being in space if this is a space game

you mean elite dangerous?

[PilotsBallad]

man I don't want a simulator

1. You don't want a simulator. That's ok, not everyone likes them.
2. You decide to play a game that's advertised as a simulator for many years.
3. You complain about the game being a simulator.

I agree with some of your points, but there are flaws in your logic and your criticism about X Rebirth
lacks explanation. Every part of the X series is a simulator and hopefully will always be. It's what makes X
so different and enjoyable compared to generic space games.

[tresstarling]

x is NOT JUST a space exploring game though.
if u want to play space exploration simulation game i suggest just buy ED.

i don't understand the part when u mention u don't feel like in space when i literally right in front of small burning star in devries, inside a cracked moon in albion, or just right in the middle of two planets in OL.

if u want planetary surface station? well in radiance heaven we are literally inside planetary atmosphere though.

or u just complain that zone in XR are really lacking compared to X3 with hundreds of system in it, right?

well me too.
i just wish we can activate all of the inactive gate so that i could go to boron space and SLAY THEM ALL

[Karmaticdamage]

ED will never have ownership and command of capital ships and stations with the ability to command an unlimited number of ships at the same time. Even star citizen won't allow you to create your own empire. This is what I really want, a new game that allows you to fly every ship, command many ships, own many stations, and purge the galaxy of all life if I want, is that so much to ask?

[tresstarling]

oh yea i forgot ED has less content than X3reunion

[Silla]

Even so i have my share of thoughts on XR as well... let's give it time. X3 wasn't build in one day either but an continious iteration of a base game such as XR is now.

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

You already got classy (XBTF) gameplay here , with modernised details. One playership, beautiful architecture everywhere, upgrading and more heavy focus on player's assets. And, immersion is once again on a high level of priority.

[BigBANGtheory]

If there is one feature XR has going for it, its the well crafted look and feel of zones. Personally (and maybe this is just me) I preffer the uniqueness and detail over the scale.

Just as in

Homeworld vs SoaSE
Witcher 3 vs Skyrim
Stalker vs Fallout
System Shock vs Doom
Deus EX vs Half Life

Procedural has a tendency to rinse and repeat in the name of scale and I don't like that. If you could overcome that limitation then yes maybe and I think that is the point of the OP, but its not there yet imho. Should Egosoft devote dev time and IP towards that???? Well gosh that is a tougher question, to be frank only IF they believe they can pull it off.

XR station interiors feel procediral and I love the first one but hated them all there after, it felt like I was being cheated tbh

[Gligli]

Thanks for back-on-track

look for inspiration in point 5.5

Sorry I could find it in English directly

[Realspace]

To be clear, my question was about making only space objects procedural, at least some moons and asteroids, which is quite easy. But not for scale's sake only, for immersion and diversity

Stations (non procedural) could be placed on their surface.

About planets you can proceduraly generate part of the surface (and design cities). So entering still is made by a 'cheat' but at least they seem planetary surface and not decoration and above all what's the sense of having the same repeated space stations only put on a so low planetary orbit that you see the sky? What about star bases on the surface?

I know X serie is not ED and I don't want it to be, but just a bit more deepnes in the simulation aspects other than economy would be appreciated. Even X3 SEEMS more realistic in that it doesn't try to have poorly simulated solar systems..it just tricks the eye but at least you don't have 4 planets (badly decorated spheres) that are some thousand Km distant from one other ...Rebirth's design simply breaks immersion for a space game, that's my 2c opinion..so the question was: is that difficoult to implement such aspects since procedural engines are being made as pieces of cake these days?

[jkflipflop98]

Your whole post makes 0 sense. I don't see how the current local/superhighway/gates "breaks immersion". The system makes perfect logical sense as it is. The local highways are taking you around from sector to sector, then the superhighways move you between collections of sectors, then finally the gates fling you across the galaxy as they always have.

It would be stupid if your Omicron Lyrea looked different than my Omicron Lyrea, which is what you'd get with a "procedurally generated" background. I like that stations of the same type look similar. After playing for so long, I can tell what a station does by looking at it. Plus, it does make logical sense as well, because production lines of the same type would be built the same way. You'd miss that with "procedurally generated" stations. It just doesn't make any sense to randomly generate anything in this universe.

[PilotsBallad]

It just doesn't make any sense to randomly generate anything in this universe.

Hm ... maybe randomly generated jump sectors, similar to the UFJD ones? Make it happen, Egosoft.

[tresstarling]

oh right, object in universe all set to orbiting one another though, which highway making galaxyit seems stagnant.

heh that is why when i got my own cap ship i stopped using highway.

with orbital acceleration instead of highway to connect planet, orbital station instead of our current station model, and jump beacon to connect solar system, and jumpgate to connect

[Gligli]

To answer the question, it all depends on the engine to "read" 3rd party apps(procedural generation) or it shall be hard coded in the engine directly, somehow.
It is although often used as a dev tool.

So, for undefined "things" such as new sector, race, station, even textures, macro statistics, etc, it can be very helpful to use it. But once generated, it stills. And for every one the same.
That mainly can make earn dev. time, once active And leads to very impressive results...
You can Wiki words such as "random" or "heap" with a lot of sub-topics

[Snafu_X3]

RealS, your idea is great, but what many ppl seem to be ignoring is that the whole X-universe (whichever version) is a fully live environment from the start of the game - whether or not <player> has seen it/been there yet!

So procedural calls for any objects the player can interact with /can/ happen (I suspect this is how random lockboxes are generated), but as for stations or ships.. well you'd be into a nightmare of bugtesting for a start, even with a dev-only fixed seed. As each sector is generated its procedural calls would generate different objects, that must then have assets tracked (if relevant), etc.. soon you end up with a completely different game than the one you started with (the one you're bugtesting) , taking up more & more CPU for tracking.. this is one reason why anything more than (say) X2 will bog down a console pretty quickly. Mission exploits may be a problem too..

At least the current fixed elements can be predicted somewhat, even if after a few restarts you may get bored with 'same old same old' in the zone(s) you've visited before. The background (ie non-interactive stuff) may change, but as it's non-interactive (& to a certain extent required for story/immersion reasons) why generate it procedurally?

Just my opinion as a semi-knowledgeable layman..

[Gligli]

At that level, the question is not accurate enough. Every single point could inherit a such way to work, but as you truly say it, there are a lot of parameters that shall be took in account before simply say that it would be possible to use it The starting base economy is a good example for procedural starts (not easily applicable in that context then)
But when we talk exploration, it takes all its sense:
" Go/Jump there"
"Find this here"
"Strange matters here"

Or even new contents with a more restrictive output filter:
"UFO"
"Races & Goods"
"Sectors environments" (colours, planetary systems, textures etc)

[edit] Why? For End-game, durability in general
See the Generation of new map on map-Editor of certain games as one of these procedural tool

[pref]

X3 had a certain amount of procedural content - god spawned/despawned objects based on supply/demand.

That was a good direction imo - have a nice handcrafted world, and balance or expand it depending on ingame events/statistics.
This should be taken even further: content generation should be tied even more to ingame events (by a much more 'competent' faction AI for ex).

Random generated content is just plain boring in any game imo, even if it can be huge.