size of the community and the sense of modding

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Trickmov
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size of the community and the sense of modding

Post by Trickmov » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 14:01

Ok, this discussion is a difficult matter, and I have started this thread mainly, because it was displaced in the XTC-thread.

The matter is the current size of the community and the sense of creating mods for such few people (XTC has currently total downloads of 4000, which is very few - and not related to the mod itself, imo)


Pros:

a) all modders do that mainly from out passion
b) it makes fun to get compliments later
c) it gives the modder something to do (most people need hobbies)

Contras:

a) it's a lot of work
b) comments of people who want to have this or that are annoying, mainly because of the work needed for it. Even worse are people who complain about the quality of the free work
c) you loose partly your freedom, if you release such a mod. You have to maintain it, you have to answer questions, you have to help the players.


Conclusion:

After all I come to conclusion, that's not everyones thing to do something like that.
The main question for me is, at which amount of players it makes no longer sense to release it at all, because nobody needs it.
Of course 4000 are not nobody, but tbh for me that amount is below the number of player at which I would see this amount of work justified.

Naturally not everone has the same opinion towards this, some modders can neglect the amount of players completly, doing it just for their "fun" - but this doesn't count for me.
Imo the amount of fun is not bigger than the amount of work and then remains only the question, how useful it may be (depending on amount of players).

Sadly I have no answers for this problem.
The X-community seems too small nowadays and I feel the work I have invested into XTC as nearly useless. This doesn't mean, that I hadn't had fun while doing so, but after all there are just a few players needing it.
Of course the players playing it, may see this differently, but they are not the ones, I am arguing about. For me they are too few to justify that much "additional" work.

"Additional", because all those maintainance-things take a lot of time, which one hadn't to do, if it was only his hobby and not made public.


To come to an end:

This discussion has no clear aim, I have mainly started this, because it was even more displaced in the XTC-thread and not directly related to this. For myself I have made already my decisions, but as the XTC-thread was the wrong place, I thought it would be good to offer a discussion-spot.

I wished something could be done to increase the size of the community, but I fear as long ES hasn't released their next game, the size will even decrease.

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Post by TrixX » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 14:12

That's just your opinion.

Of course I would love to make a mod that is considered a must have download of the gaming community at large. However I make mods for me initially and if it outgrows me (others get involved etc...) then it gains a life and momentum of it's own. The number of gamers who download it in the end becomes slightly irrelevant to me in the end. If 100 download it and enjoy it, you never know who they know and will talk to...
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Post by Katorone » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 14:53

I have to say that I think you're being ridiculous...

A few months/years ago you comitted yourself to a team to create a mod. It was a decision you made then, probably because you had fun modding and wanted to create something big.
If you had any other reason for joining the team and contributing, then that's your own mistake. And in no sense the blame of the "small" community (you have more downloads than there are people living in my town ffs).

If you don't feel like modding anymore. Fine.
If there are other things more fun. Fine.
But your current ranting makes it seem that you just want props and respect and whatever... Sorry, you're not getting it this way. If you're modding because you need something to do and you like the compliments... Well, go do something else.

I'm not a modder, but I used to create scripts for IRC eggdrop bots. It's a thankless job indeed. But who really cares? I was glad when people came to me with a bug because it meant I had an opportunity to improve. I absolutely hated it when they didn't read the manual or they began asuming the scripts could do things they couldn't...
The scripts I wrote were things I found challenging or just wanted to do. But in the end, I wrote scripts because I loved it. Now I don't write TCL scripts anymore, because I have more fun doing other stuff. I don't care that a script I made pleased 10 or 100 or 10.000.000 other people. (Except perhaps for my paypall donation account.)

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Post by Trickmov » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 15:14

@Katerone: Yes, you're right, that's my own fault for doing so, when joining, but I don't think that I am ridiculous and I also said that I have made already my decisions.

I think it's the amount of work, which is absolutly out of relation now. When I am working on my other scripts, they are small compared to a complete mod, also the amount of work invested is much smaller. Thus I have no problem there, how many times they were downloaded. But if about 20 other people have invested about as much time and nerves into this project for a very long time like me, the amount of players seems rather tiny to me.

And no, I don't want additional respect, it's just that the relation for me is not longer given - which I want to make clear in this thread. This is not for blaming anyone.

@sms_747: Hm, hopefully there will be some more players looking into it, but sorry, I can't agree to Buddha there :D (too much work for that ;) )
arghh - you deleted the post :(

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Post by sms_747 » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 15:24

I think that doing work of this nature purely for recognition or personal gain is the wrong attitude. Such goals inevitably detract from the focus that great work requires, and often dilutes the attention to detail that is necessary to provide the recognition sought in the first place.
I would ask myself why I do it at all if that was my motivation. It was always going to be a mod after all, not a lucrative project. I for one design and build things in 3D space. Not just models, but atmospheric depth and provoking emotional response for missions and environments. If I can produce that effect in a player, my goal is achieved, and there is no way that I would take people giving me feedback on errors I made as a bad thing. I am committed to perfection, as any real game designer/modder (read artist) is, and I find this statement insulting to the entire fraternity. I do what I do because I love it, and have spent countless dark hours in years gone by doing things that never even left my desktop, and even those were accompanied by a sense of satisfaction and justification for the drive to do it in the first place.
By my reckoning, our passion for our work is our motivation, everything else is just gravy, especially when the work is a mod for a game that came out years ago.

Damning your audience as one entity because you didn't get enough pats on the back is against the very nature of a gaming community, and I am seriously disappointed that somebody as part of such a team would soil their name, and their mod with this kind of rant.

*Regarding Buddha, if you think that what you are doing is 'work' in the first place, you aren't doing it right*

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Post by Trickmov » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 15:42

@sms_747: so far so good, but I cannot agree to following two statements:
...I do what I do because I love it...
this would mean, that all this work had been related to the passion, which wasn't the case. Indeed many things were annoying there - and I often asked, if that's worth it.
That's absolutly different from my other scripts, where it was really only my own passion, which led me to doing it.
Damning your audience as one entity because you didn't get enough pats on the back is against the very nature of a gaming community, and I am seriously disappointed that somebody as part of such a team would soil their name, and their mod with this kind of rant.
No, I am not complaining about too few pats, I am just thinking that there are too few people to be able to give pats.
And again: this is neither a rant nor blaming anyone - it's just that for me there is no longer a relation between the work and the usefulness. The work is done, and I am glad it's done... but asked, if I would do it again, I would say never.

* Regarding Buddha: Yes, this was also my conclusion -> not doing that :D

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Post by EmperorJon » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 16:38

I must point out, as I have done before, that 4000 downloads is a lot for anything like this within a month or so. I've personally put about as much work into some of my stuff as you will no doubt have done as a part of a team effort for something bigger, and everything I make gets a few tens of downloads if that. That's mainly because it's a small specialised thing that nobody really cares about... my problem is I make things for myself only to find I no longer want to use it... because I know how it works. Using my own plugins is like scripting free stuff in for me...

So now you know how it feels eh. I know a lot of people here who've put in a huge amount of work, only for it to be buried under the more popular mods and scripts, such as XTC, of course, and one person, not to be named, who basically said (running up to the release) XTC was the only good thing in S&M and nothing else was at all good. That was then put into context, changed, etc. and it turns out it wasn't intended anywhere near as harsh as it sounded, :P but still.
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Post by Trickmov » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 16:46

Well, ok my problem - I wasn't just aware of the current size of the X-community. At X3R-times I had downloads of STO above 1000 (can't see current downloads), perhaps I had this amount in mind, when judging about the estimated amount of XTC-downloads.

However, seeing now like it really is, I am really disappointed, and as said I feel the work a bit as useless. This doesn't mean, that it wasn't fun while doing so and not that I am not sort of proud for the work - but after all, just 4000 was a bad surprise for me.
Of course this number will still grow and this is probably a very good result for the current state... but...

[EDIT: ] there is of course a backside to such popularity... I really would have liked to give some other modders some of the XTC-attention, because as team-member you always have to have a look at it, which turned out to be real work due to the amount of posts.
Last edited by Trickmov on Wed, 19. Jan 11, 16:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Ketraar » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 16:53

I read this one twice and still didn't come up with a satisfactory answer if to move this to OT or not, so I'll leave it for now but dont be surprised if I or another mod moves it.

To the issue raised I have just a few words to post and don't get this the wrong way, its just my opinion.

You (and proly most of your team) put so much effort in the creation of your mod for the wrong reasons it seams. Modding is a hobby, means you don't mod because you don't have anything better to do, you mod because you like it. I mean if I have to do stuff that I don't like, I better get a pay-check at the end of the month. ;-)

For me modding is that part of the gaming community that pushes a game to its limits (and beyond) and THAT is fun on its own. I've been modding the games for ages now and sometimes RL forces me to invest less time on it so projects get delayed, so what? That's life.

As for how many people use my stuff its irrelevant, sure I'm glad if it brings joy to more people or helps those that are stuck, but that's just a side effect that will boost my ego just a bit. (not that it needs any more boosting though :-P)

So if your question is if its worth modding for the community, the short answer is, no.

MFG

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Post by Trickmov » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 17:05

Ketraar wrote:I read this one twice and still didn't come up with a satisfactory answer if to move this to OT or not, so I'll leave it for now but dont be surprised if I or another mod moves it.
absolutly ok, I wasn't sure, where to place it best
You (and proly most of your team) put so much effort in the creation of your mod for the wrong reasons it seams.
only me, I don't know, what the team thinks about it, but I doubt that they see it like I do ;)
Modding is a hobby, means you don't mod because you don't have anything better to do, you mod because you like it. I mean if I have to do stuff that I don't like, I better get a pay-check at the end of the month. ;-)
yes, abolutly agreed (also to the rest of the post)... I just had not mainly fun during this time and I thought for myself, that at least a lot of people benefit from it - looking back, it's ok for me, but I would not start something like that again, for me it turned out to be more work than hobby :(

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Post by LV » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 18:45

The debate is fine here for me

As someone who is near the top of time spent writing scripts around here I know exactly what your saying.

I have my up's and downs especially these days as i've been around for so long.

I wouldn't say your being ridiculous at all, possibly just in a phase where you think all the hours i've spent and nobody can be arsed with what I've done.

We all have them.

I started with ego modding with xt with exe editing, back then there were probably 20 forum members left on THQ so i doubt there was much take up of what i did if any.


With bigger mods it does start to feel like a job and not a hobby especially if you not writing but bug hunting and fixing (RRF is the bane of my life and i should never have re-written it)

That said i've always simply written because i like to, less these days but if I write something I think people may need I'll put it out.

I've also learned not to jump in with "please spend 20 hrs altering your script because i've spent 5 seconds asking you to" requests, i've also learned to ignore bug reports that do not immediately strike me as 100% down to the script, i've chased too many shadows that were not even my work and learned that there's probably a high % of users that can't even be assed reading a simple install instruction bringing their problem.

You could say it's poor customer service but they ain't customers, Use or use not

I have scripts i've spent over 50 hrs writing that have <5 downloads, get over it and move on!

Take a break and re-charge ;)

Just on the subject of complaining I saw this months ago and it stuck in my head since

" my whole thing is that i dont think people are complaining about a product or service, i think when you download something, regardless of what it is or where you get it from, you expect it to work. and if a person is going to create something, regardless of whether or not there are instructions for you to update it yourself, they should do it. its their product, they should have follow up and be responsible...or dont release it."


that's taken from a free 3rd party user mod for the sims that needed updating for latest version.

If that had been posted here the users head would be on display at the top of the forum still ;)

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Re: size of the community and the sense of modding

Post by Sartorie » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 19:56

For me the big difference between hobby and job is : numbers :P

In the job you have to live (and die) by numbers be it production cost, man hours, customers, sales - whatever ...

In your hobby your are free from those :) you can influence / make a difference / implement your own ideas and be creative outside of the box - in most jobs thats not possible and this is the number 1 reason why free software is written or mods are made

Of course there are certain aspects where a hobby can turn into a drag ;) even something you do because you like doing it will not always be pure fun and sometimes can be outright annoying ^^

The number of downloads has no real use besides to please pure curiosity ... whats the actual difference between 100, 1000 or 100,000 people playing something to the writer ? how much time would you consider well spend for every user / player ? ;)

I think you just have a natural down about this and try to pin it on the numbers but the reasons are probably something else ... burnout, too much work on this or you just plain and simple lost your interest in doing it :) this just happens and luckily you do not have to put up being stuck in the job because it's a hobby :)

So like mentioned in the other thread : cheer up :)

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Post by Trickmov » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 20:16

Ok, LV and Sartorie, I will take your advice there and try not to nail it down to the amount of downloads.
Of course I am currently suffering from some sort of outburn, thus this has of course a relation to this. As said in the XTC-thread it wasn't my intention to get the discussion in this direction.

Though, after all I still find it rather displeasing, that there are obviously that few people playing TC now - concentrating on the belief, that many people benefit from your work, if you've lost the fun while creating it, doesn't work then any longer for me :(


I will have a look again at the downloads in a few months, perhaps it's pleasing me better then :D

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Post by Observe » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 20:43

As one who has spent quite a few hours (understatement) providing mods and tutorials etc., I am in the same boat with dwindling community audience.

Why then do I continue? I must admit it's nice to see my work enjoyed by others, but that is not the sole reason - or even a major reason.

The simple fact is that modding is in my blood. It's what I do period. I mod this game in particular because I love the genre, and there is simply no other game or game company like this.

My mods don't see the kind of fanfare others enjoy, but that doesn't stop me. Would I put the insane amount of work that I have done here if I was in isolation with zero audience/users? Yes, I probably would. Why? Because it's my chosen hobby.

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Post by Litcube » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 21:06

Great thread. I'd proffer, with my inconsiderable weight, that this thread absolutely belongs in this forum, and there aren't enough of them. We need to talk, us dwindling fraternity (as sms so eloquently phrased).

I don't see this as a rant at all. I also don't think Trickmov is being ridiculous. It sounds to me as though he's concerned about the shrinking of the community. It's something that causes me anxiety as well, as I struggle with "why doesn't everyone love this game as much as I do?"
LV wrote:I've also learned not to jump in with "please spend 20 hrs altering your script because i've spent 5 seconds asking you to" requests
QFFT. I struggle with this almost daily. There's about 15 requests in the Phanon Corp thread asking me to re-write the whole thing so that it can suit their XY play style. It's a blessing and a curse. Some of those suggestions have been great and have helped shaped the plugin (mr. Who, Targ Collective, and Kadatherion to name a few). As a creator, it's nice to receive feedback and suggestions, but it seems beyond the grasp of the typical user on this forum to determine if a particular suggestion is out of the scope of a particular mod. "lightcub make the fanun corp tak ovr the borun sectors and only uze xenon ships and change all sector mucis to baytovin's 5th"

I read a thread recently; I think it was a sign-removal pack by Killerog. Some of the questions in there would have sent me into a frenzy.

"how much fps duz this help?" It was followed by another equally lazy question. Killerog was much more acquiescent in his response than would have been most folks.

Hold on. I'm going to stop what I'm doing and run a benchmark for your passingly apathetic curiosity. Run the @#$ing bechmark yourself, and post the results. It's the least you can contribute in return for free work.

Now that was a rant.

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Post by Killjaeden » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 21:29

Now imagine the community was as big as WoW for example ...

100+ times more of those users/ comments :P

Are you sure you want a community that big? ;)
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Post by Nova Scotia » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 21:43

I would not know where to begin when it comes x-modding but I was involved a life time ago :lol: in designing golf courses for the the JN6 golf sim ,some courses came quick some took up to 6 months to create.

Even if only 1 person enjoyed and appreciated the effort and time I had spent creating 18 holes of golf that represented the course and the spirit of golf ,I was Tickled pink and humbled.

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Post by EmperorJon » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 21:44

Also Trickmov, I've just had an idea.


You said 20k downloads?

You you want 5x more...?

So we EACH have to just enjoy XTC 5x more than we were bofore! Then you're all haaappy! :)
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Post by h2o.Ava » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 23:07

To quote EmperorJon: (paraphrased)
The number of users a script has is inversely proportional to the number of hours spent creating it.

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Post by Litcube » Wed, 19. Jan 11, 23:10

h2o.AvA wrote:To quote EmperorJon: (paraphrased)
The number of users a script has is inversely proportional to the number of hours spent creating it.
It's totally true. The script I spent the most time on, the most brutal shit-storm of a beast I've ever berthed from the womb of my creative consious barely has two users. :)

http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=294043

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