!!! REAL PLANETS for X3 - PLANETARY INCLUSION/LANDING !!!

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Realspace
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!!! REAL PLANETS for X3 - PLANETARY INCLUSION/LANDING !!!

Post by Realspace »

Ok, this is not one of those requests about planetary landig etc. etc. that regularly fill the forum... :P This is a step by step explanation about HOW TO PRACTICALLY BUILD THE PLANETARY INCLUSION IN X3.

What I propose is not entirelly a trick, it can be very nice and also show some kind of progressive transiction from space to land.

You would say, why he explains it here but doesn't do it himself? Well, the reason is I'm not playing X3 anymore, unistalled all, don't mess with files, etc. But, I'm quite sure this is a good solution, and I'm prepared to help in modelling, texturing etc. if someone is willing to import files into the game and all that stuff. :roll:

Step 1 - what we need

a) we have to leave empty sectors in the map (one for each landable planet we build)

b) 2 remodelled/retextured jumpgates, one with a shape of curved circle (flattened hemisphere), one the shape of a 4-edge surface. Both can be made transparent but, for easier use during galaxy editing, we can make them colored with sky neutral color (as transparent bright grey or such).
The 4-edges surface must be the exact size of a sector, i.e. 4192 km (if I remember well...). About the round gate I'll talk later.
As alternative we could use the gateless solution that is being developed by Cycrow (a script to command the jump)


c) a program such as Terragen (but ther's a plenty and I'll give some links below...) to create a nice 3D terrain. This must also be imported to the size of a sector, 4192x4192 km

d) A lot of new planetary textures at high res showing the land at very low altitude (no problem, I've all we need, tens of textures already adapted into dds, etc.)

d) some good remodelled stations in shape of small buildings to create cities on the surface (this can be hard work but we can probably adapt pre-existing models and actual stations). Some stations can be used to dock also on land surface.

e) The mini-nebulae from the X2 files inside the directory, simply retextured into white clouds (very easy).

f) a retextured skybox having the colors of the blue/red/green etc. skies (possibly with color gradient to simulate the horizon's color-shift...very easy), so either a sphere with only half textured as above or even a box, the important is to make the color shift start at the middle of it (final horizon) or anyway in corrispondance with the y-coordinates of the 3d terrain.

g) a LOOOOT of patience!

Step 2 - procedure

After all the above-said modelling has been done, we edit the sector with the new skybox and put the 3D-TERRAIN inside the sector on the x,z surface, at whatever y value (according to the texture of the skybox). We put the remodelled buildings to create cities over the said 3D-terrain. Then we put the 4-EDGES GATE at 20-30 km above the said terrain. We put then diffuse MININEBULAE (a lot) to cover the whole x,z region of space and between the y-coordinates of 8-20 km.
That's the planet surface, now the rest.


We need to model other 2-3 planet kinds, X3 alrady has 3 kinds for 3 different resolutions/distances of view. Here is a first small issue. I don't know if we can modify the LOD-RANGE or VISIBILITY or whatever is called ,so that the engine loads up the model according to the distance of the player (it should be feasible...).

So we have put the 3 different kinds of planet that loads up at different distances, we put also the other 2-3 more detailed models that load up when player is much nearer. The last model (very low orbit) must be of course not a sphere but just a curved surface (the shape of a contact lens...), with short view of land and very detailed (repeated) bumb-mapped textures of clouds.

At the same coordinates we finally put also the MINI-NEBULAE retextured as clouds. If they show up too early we can command the Lod-range also for them.

Some 20-30 km dist from the spheres/hemi-spheres we also put the REMODELLED GATE in shape of lens, it must be of course the same diameter of the last planet-model + 20-30 km. It can be totally transparent or, as said, modder friendly, so visible to be used in Galaxy Editor.

The 2 gates are connected (land sector - normal sector)

The 2 gates must be NON TARGETTABLE AND NON VISIBLE IN THE GALAXY MAP


The land sector must be invisible in the galaxy map

END


Step 3 - known issues

a) we dont' know if and at what extent the LOD RANGE/VISIBILITY can be commanded (maybe someone more expert such as Observe could speak on this...)

b) The city modelling can be time-demanding and result, at the end, as quite too repetitive.

c) we know that after the 4192 km border the player is automatically respawn on the other side of a sector. This can be not a problem, probably even help to make the planet's surface pratically infinite becouse you don't notice the respawn when flying on the surface if the borders of the 3D-Terrain are made flat and simple (so, no mountains that interrupt suddendly). I know I know, 4000 km is not enough for a planet surface, but is even not that bad. Eventually it is much worse to have such a limited space in space rather than on land... :P

d) a real issue, the AVIONICS and the GRAVITY on surface must be different. Well, not that the physics of X3 makes much sense also in space (the fake air friction is very bad for my taste...). But if physics don't change a bit inside the planet then the player can just feel to be in another sector, only terrain-retextured but quite similar to the rest of the game (except fot the up/down limits).

e) probably the atmosphere damage is hardcoded so we have to overcome it. The solution by Observe could be the way, i.e. to use models other than planets to create the planet sphere



Step 4 - usefull links to terrain generators and (just for fun) to planetary engines and other stuff on planets

* Planetary engine (procedural planets):

1) http://drtypo.free.fr/index.html

2) http://www.xwaytoonsoft.com/

* Obviuosly, Terragen:

http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/

* DEM - for scientific pourposes, but not only..

http://www.visualizationsoftware.com/3d ... loads.html

* Planetary textures:

http://libnoise.sourceforge.net/index.html

http://www.celestiamotherlode.net/

* Generator of textures:

http://www.ethos.no/.robert/files/demo.zip

* Pics, infos and numbers about planets

http://www.solarviews.com/eng/solarsys.htm


----------------------------------------------------------

Here the links to other planetary engines, terrain generators, etc.:

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index. ... 809.0.html
(an interesting planetary engine addition to the indie game Freespace)

http://www.shedletsky.com/jjshed/perlin/

http://www.vworldpowered.com/

http://www.dreamlands.to/

http://www.earth3d.org/

http://www.bundysoft.com/L3DT/

http://dmytry.pandromeda.com/voxelworld/index.html

http://drtypo.free.fr/index.html (this is a procedural engine, it has already posted, one of the best and very light !!)

And finally this, the most important. Is a databaes of many many sources, you can find really everything from here:
http://www.vterrain.org/

And to play, the link to the downloadable ELITE 2 for PC:
http://www.tomatarium.pwp.blueyonder.co ... ntier.html

That's all for now, let's the discussion begin! :D 8)
Last edited by Realspace on Wed, 12. Dec 07, 13:08, edited 4 times in total.
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ninjitsumonk
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Post by ninjitsumonk »

Already onto it :D, should've checked the X-Universe before ya posted :P.
Alot of good info here though as a reference point, could be pretty useful.
Archeo Avis wrote:
if you take out phrasing and root notes and just look at the notes, they are the same
So what you're saying is, if you ignore everything that's different and focus only on the one thing that's the same, they're same.

Good God.
Realspace
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Post by Realspace »

Really? You're working on it??? That's a very good news... please gimme some link to the thread and tell me if you need help (as said, for modelling and texturing, not importing files)... :) :)

edit: ok, I found this thread (http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... =#2321374[), is this what you meant. I'm reading it and tell later ... but it seems you'd have rather posted it in the modding forum not the X-universe...that's why I missed it! :rant: :rant: :rant:

... and it's quite curios that we both posted this idea at only 1 day of distance!! :)
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ninjitsumonk
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Post by ninjitsumonk »

Yeah, and that somebody else posted about it on XU aswel :S.

Yeah thats the thread I was on about, atm I'm just working with the original game files(the one in the planetary mission) but if all goes well, landable planets/cities will be the next thing in mind.

Main reason I posted it in XU is because I want some player opinions, for example whether they would actually like to see planets ingame, now that they know that it's possible.

I've also discovered a method to add ships without having to rewrite the pathfinding, having ships as part of an animation, rather than having the actual objects.

For the actual ingame scene, its more like an all inclusive globe, with space outside it, this may be causing more slowdown than is required. I think you're method(of using a skybox approach) for the sky may be a better idea than having an all inclusive object.

For actually getting to the planet, I was thinking of using a freelancer style gate system or have some form of dockable "landing struts" that jump the player to the planet so that AI ships do not try and get to the sector.

If you've got any more Ideas/Input please feel free to comment. :D.
Archeo Avis wrote:
if you take out phrasing and root notes and just look at the notes, they are the same
So what you're saying is, if you ignore everything that's different and focus only on the one thing that's the same, they're same.

Good God.
Realspace
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Post by Realspace »

well, you should ask Cycrow about the status of its gateless jump script, it could be the easiest solution.

2nd, i personally don't like the Freelance entrance gate to planet, they don't make much sense and, my 5c opinion, spoil the game's immersion. Whato about them, are the future ships unable to resist a bit of air friction, to need such a what, hole in the air??

If the player is automatically transferred when at a certain distance form planet, I suppose it is a better ILLUSION of big space than just a window to enter in.

Good idea to post it for players response! Indeed sometimes I fear many complain about the missing planetary landing but then would not know what to do with planets!!! :P ... well, not the I don't want planet, on contrary, it's my fixation....but after we see what's being developed with procedural engines like the I-novae of INFINITY, well... our solution can appear a bit too poor... :(
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Post by ninjitsumonk »

Yeah, each one takes a damn load of work, I've just started modelling some stuff for one of the planets and its taking ages, I just wanna make sure it's in the players interest before I do any more work.

I'm not sure off the top of my head which the best way to get a ship down to the atmosphere considering that destruction of ships when near to planets seems hardcoded in IIRC.

Its a tough one but one that I'd be more than willing to work on to add more immersion to the game.
Archeo Avis wrote:
if you take out phrasing and root notes and just look at the notes, they are the same
So what you're saying is, if you ignore everything that's different and focus only on the one thing that's the same, they're same.

Good God.
Realspace
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Post by Realspace »

hardcoded? that's a bad news...too many hardcoded features in this game!!! :rant: I'll add to the issue list...

The solution by Observe could be the way, i.e. to use models other than planets to create the planet sphere... :wink:
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Post by ninjitsumonk »

That's why I suggested using special landing struts or using a Gate System, there doesn't seem to be any smoothe way to get down to the planet unfortunately :(.
Archeo Avis wrote:
if you take out phrasing and root notes and just look at the notes, they are the same
So what you're saying is, if you ignore everything that's different and focus only on the one thing that's the same, they're same.

Good God.
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Iifrit Tambuur-san
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Post by Iifrit Tambuur-san »

If I unterstand this in the right way, you will create a new sector put there a surface of a planet put some cities on it and thats the landing. 8)

Afraid of the atmosphere? Why?

In this new sector.. create the surface as special object not as planet. Collision only on contact.

Landing, look at Freelancer. The best way ever getting down and up.
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Realspace
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Post by Realspace »

ninjitsumonk wrote:That's why I suggested using special landing struts or using a Gate System, there doesn't seem to be any smoothe way to get down to the planet unfortunately :(.
well, actually we only need to modify the ID of the planets so that they are see as stations/ asteroids by the engine. as said, the Obseve's moonbase is built as station model. The point is I don't know if we can simpli change the ID or have to remodel the entire planet. 2nd, don't know if the new models (planets not planets) can behandled by the Galaxy Editor the same as real planets. Planets indeed have the carachteristics that can be put much far away, even ouside the physical borders of the sector. Now, if we make a very big sphere/hemi-sphere that is threated as a station/asteroid by the Editor, can we put it far away or not. Otherwise it could cover all the sector or even not be contained by it!!! :?

as experiment you could try to use the moonbase mod and edit it trying to put the base very far away out of sector borders and see what happens
Iifrit Tambuur-san wrote:If I unterstand this in the right way, you will create a new sector put there a surface of a planet put some cities on it and thats the landing. 8)

Afraid of the atmosphere? Why?

In this new sector.. create the surface as special object not as planet. Collision only on contact.

Landing, look at Freelancer. The best way ever getting down and up.
No, atmosphere is not at all an issue inside the LAND SECTOR, you don't have any there just a retextured skybox.
The issue is with the normal sector from which you virtually jump. The planets indeed maks yu crash, as we discussed above.

Freelancer's way is not a great thing, but I admit it works well as integration of planet's economy, what is a big part of X games...
ninjitsumonk wrote:Yeah, each one takes a damn load of work, I've just started modelling some stuff for one of the planets and its taking ages, I just wanna make sure it's in the players interest before I do any more work.
ninjitsumonk, I hope you're using some program to automatically generate planet surface!!! if you do all by hands, youre CRAZY :P :D
p.s. Milkshape has a nice function to automatically generate a 3D Terrain with mountains etc.
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Iifrit Tambuur-san
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Post by Iifrit Tambuur-san »

Realspace wrote: No, atmosphere is not at all an issue inside the LAND SECTOR, you don't have any there just a retextured skybox.
The issue is with the normal sector from which you virtually jump. The planets indeed maks yu crash, as we discussed above.

Freelancer's way is not a great thing, but I admit it works well as integration of planet's economy, what is a big part of X games...
This suggest that the Landing Gate heads towards the planet.
Why not in a turn of 90° or aside the Planet. It's a very simple solution. Not the best I know :roll:
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Realspace
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Post by Realspace »

Well, in any case the planets I had in mind, before you are transferred to land secors, must be huge, much larger than the actual one. I know I can seem heretic.. :D .. but X3 planets (even the orbital ones) are not that big, probably 1/10 of the real scale.
This to say, atmosphere would be not an issue on such a big planet. This is a curved surface where the acutual crash zone is not a problem, indeed you get transferred by the hidden gate long before you crash.

I hope I was clear.. :gruebel: if the planet model is bigger then the atmosphere is accordingly tiner, and you have time to enjoy some lower orbit view before being transferred
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Post by ninjitsumonk »

Realspace wrote:ninjitsumonk, I hope you're using some program to automatically generate planet surface!!! if you do all by hands, youre CRAZY
p.s. Milkshape has a nice function to automatically generate a 3D Terrain with mountains etc.
Yeah, thats me, crazy :P.
on a more serious note, I'm not doing the whole thing myself, atm I'm just working on small areas that act as a base, on the planet, that allows interaction with the planet etc.

Having sectors the size that you suggested in itself IMO is pretty insane, the engine would have a hell of a lot to work out.

Though if planetary sectors were kept more as bases to interract with(ala freelancer) there would be much less to work out.

The stuff I'm working on(and probably foolishly) is tightly packed city's etc like in the second mission, but I'm looking to do different things as the engine clearly isn't designed for such tightly packed, high poly, models.
Archeo Avis wrote:
if you take out phrasing and root notes and just look at the notes, they are the same
So what you're saying is, if you ignore everything that's different and focus only on the one thing that's the same, they're same.

Good God.
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Observe
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Post by Observe »

Sounds like some intriguing ideas. I'll keep an eye on this as progress develops. :D
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Post by Realspace »

Observe, from what I read in you moonbase topic, we can exclude to use the models having non planet ID to make them huge, so we are stucked to use planet models in any case to make the big orbital planets.

but what about the 3D terrain, since it is in an unknown (for me) ID class, and it needs to be huge to cover the whole sector (4192) how should we handle it? as a planet? in that case ther's the atmosphere kill problem...
or do we put many smaller terrain patches all around the virtual surface?? :gruebel: :gruebel:

p.s. In defense of the X engine (that nevertherless drives me craaazy!!! :headbang: ) I must add that many other space games have such limitations, it means you can make big only the planet meshes/models. In Spaceforce, e.g., while you can make the planets even 10000000000000 times bigger (I didn't experiment further!) you can at most make asteroids 10x and stations only 1x
Then the issue is that this kind of models (planet) have no collision value, so a kill distance is set on (even if you reduce the atmosphere damage at 0) to avoid you go throughin the planet (weird!!! :paranid: )
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Post by Observe »

@Realspace: I'm rather swamped with work etc., but will try to respond to your questions later today if possible. :)
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Post by Observe »

Realspace wrote:Observe, from what I read in you moonbase topic, we can exclude to use the models having non planet ID to make them huge, so we are stucked to use planet models in any case to make the big orbital planets.
Correct. Large objects (bigger than moonbase) will not show very well. What'll happen, is the whole object will not appear. That is to say distant parts will begin to disappear making object look weird. The obvious alternative would be making the object a "Planet". Most unfortunately, this does not work because of the cursed "entering atmosphere" destruction problem. Too bad we can't selectively turn that off. However, in spite of intensive investigation, I've not found way to disable that hard-coded "feature".
Realspace wrote:but what about the 3D terrain, since it is in an unknown (for me) ID class, and it needs to be huge to cover the whole sector (4192) how should we handle it? as a planet? in that case ther's the atmosphere kill problem...
or do we put many smaller terrain patches all around the virtual surface??
Once again, we get stuck in this viscous circle of if it's some non-Planet object there's the visibility issue. If it's a Planet, there's the "atmosphere kill" problem.

If I had one wish, it would be for Egosoft to give us ability to turn off "atmosphere kill". The we'd have some very interesting possibilities available to us. Ok, give me two wishes - second being ability to adjust AI anti-collision. No, make that three wishes - descent OOS calculations for the game, so in sector and out of sector combat has similar characteristics.

The way I see it based on your ideas, is you'd have a "normal" Planet with huge invisible gate just above the "atmosphere kill" range. As ship approaches Planet, it jumps to new sector containing HUGE planet surface object - but now we're stuck with the visibility issue. Of course this new second sector could have as sector background representing planet surface. Trouble is you'd never be able to fly over the surface because it would always be in the distance. I guess you could have yet another jumpgate once you get even closer to the surface. Trouble is you get stuck in this visibility problem loop, and can never really get over it with the hard-coded limitations.

In short, the moonbase "planet" approach may be about as good as can be done atm. I certainly hope and wish your ideas manifest in a workable alternative in at least some fashion or other for player enjoyment.
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Post by Tenlar Scarflame »

isn't the visibility issue dictated by a given sector's draw distance? Like, in some of those southern Boron sectors stuff doesn't get drawn until it's, say, 1.5 k away from you. Whereas in other sectors the distance is like, 50 k. How high can the draw distance go?

I'd love to see this implemented, by the way. Land based factories would be awesome to have, as well as some real in-atmosphere dogfighting. 8)
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Post by Observe »

Tenlar Scarflame wrote:isn't the visibility issue dictated by a given sector's draw distance? Like, in some of those southern Boron sectors stuff doesn't get drawn until it's, say, 1.5 k away from you. Whereas in other sectors the distance is like, 50 k. How high can the draw distance go?

I'd love to see this implemented, by the way. Land based factories would be awesome to have, as well as some real in-atmosphere dogfighting. 8)
It's true visibility can be adjusted to some extent. However, about the most you can achieve is approx 100 - 120K before an object will disappear regardless of what you try to do. A large "planet" body of the nature being discussed could easily exceed that distance in diameter. As far as dogfighting goes, there is the horrible AI anti-collision problem to contend with. Generally speaking, you'll discover that ships won't go anywhere near such an object.

[EDIT] As an experiment, try putting a 120K diameter sphere in-game. You'll find even an object that large still has a noticeable curved horizon which is unacceptable imo for a true near surface planet experience. You'll also notice an object that size will have a bad "shimmering" disappearance toward outer edge.
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Post by Realspace »

I didn't experiment it, but what about putting sparse FOG (using the fog of sectors) as you have at the horizion?? not a lot, just abit to cover the borders of the model.

another solution could be to use the skybox also for ground but only for "maquillage" distant view, when you approach ground you see a patch of 3D terrain..

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