Israel War

[chew-ie]

Never a dull moment with the monkeys ..

[matthewfarmery]

In the UK I see a lot of adverts for sending money to UNICEF to help children and families in GAZA. But I think we shouldn't really bother. Waste of money and resources. While some might not agree with this. But if there are going to be a lot more air strikes. Then who knows who their next target area will be? I always felt, that the west should have stayed out of the middle east and let them sort themselves out. As for the war in general. It doesn't really bother me too much. Their views don't coincide with ours. The middle east will always be a hot bed. And sending aid which will only last so long, I just feel is a total waste of time.

I guess this tension has been building up for some time. But we as a human race, really fail to heed warnings from history.

[CBJ]

...But I think we shouldn't really bother. Waste of money and resources. While some might not agree with this. But if there are going to be a lot more air strikes. ... It doesn't really bother me too much. Their views don't coincide with ours...

Not to put too fine a point on it, people not caring whether others live or die if those others' views don't coincide with their own is the reason we have situations like this in the first place.

[matthewfarmery]

Put it this way, Using Babylon 5 as an example, the war between the Narns and the Centauri. You can pretty much copy and paste that conflict into many parts of human history. One side saying that the other started it first. But does that really matter when given a chance, maybe take a while, hundreds of years, then the hatred for the other side will always be there. Sure you can hide it, and have the two races etc walking by each others side for only so long. But it doesn't take much to start that infernal conflict up again. And for those that did watch B5, then it's goal for achieving peace failed.

My point is, you can pretty much copy and paste that between those in the middle east, and Germans and the Jews, and so on. There is no world wide solution to this (peaceful), if there was, the world would be a far better place.

We have no idea when this war will end? it could last months, it could last years. But like the point above, even if there was some peace, how long will it last before it starts up again? that is my point. the west has done a fair amount of meddling there, September 11, just another example of some sort of payback. and lets not forget the consequences of that. So there lies the problem. Unless there is some sort of global solution to stopping every war on the planet, then these conflicts might as well carry on regardless and others in other side of the world shouldn't reallty bother. Again, it going to start up again at some point. And infernal conflicts which will never end.

If anyone has a solution to stopping wars, putting a stop to children suffering, please raise their hands. Until that day comes, and I highly doubt it will, we might as well look the other way and let two races fight until the end.

[CBJ]

So if you can't wave a wand and stop all wars, just look the other way and let the people caught up in those wars die. Got it.

[fiksal]

I don't know where the borders should be, who should live on what side of that border, but that's why multi county organizations like UN need to exist and be given power. One county can't solve it, many might.


With this war, Israel still had the right to defend itself, Hamas still needs to be captured, and Israel is still responsible for all the bombings. Both Palestine and Israel should be on the map, both peoples should be safe in either country.

[matthewfarmery]

I don't know where the borders should be, who should live on what side of that border, but that's why multi county organizations like UN need to exist and be given power. One county can't solve it, many might.

Unless the UN has more power, and more muscle, I really don't see it doing much. We already had out fill of two major middle east wars, I don't really think there is much of a stomach for another. But that is another point, will those in the middle east really respect the likes of the UN? I don't really see that.

I wish there was a better solution to this. But again, I really don't see one. But yes, the UN should have the power to step in, but whatever they might do, might only last for a few days, then it's back to bombings and killings.

I really hate humans at times, and in such situations, it really turns my stomach that I belong to this silly annoying race. (I could use worse words, but I won't)

[fiksal]

Nobody really wants to be involved, but it's one of those moments where we need more than country with boots on the ground.

Not everyone wants to fight there, provided enough time and security, people who want to kill each other should run out.

At least those are large brush strokes

[Imperial Good]

It is very easy to think of it as "Israel's war on Gaza" based on what the news shows when the bigger picture appears more to be that it is "Iran's proxy war on Israel". A lot of people in Gaza sadly seem to be collateral damage in that proxy conflict.

The reason I think this is based on the short-sightedness of the major terrorist attack that triggered the war. No self-ruling government would commit such an act when in such a position since it would only end in their destruction and the suffering of their people, there is no value for them to gain. As such someone else must be pulling the strings, someone who is not directly at risk, someone willing to sacrifice the well being of millions of people to further their own agenda. Iran seems the logical instigator, especially given the latest attacks on commercial shipping traffic by organisations they support as well as their internationally directed propaganda.

There is no way out of the conflict other than the removal of Hamas. Hamas is a recognised terrorist organisation by the west, the nations they threaten. Any sort of extended peace with Hamas would likely be used to plot more acts or terrorism or attacks on Israel. Any sort of aid given during that time would be confiscated by Hamas for their war machine and not effectively reach the people that need it.

My only hope is that the world remembers the after effects of World War 1 and does not leave Gaza as a pile of rubble. Without major reconstruction efforts and removal of sanctions after Hamas is removed and the war is over, it is very likely a "Hamas 2.0" would form from the residual discontent and the entire situation would likely repeat itself 10-15 years later with the cost of yet more lives. A long term solution is needed, a persistent change in thinking, not just a temporary regime change.

[EGO_Aut]

It..... is "Iran's proxy war on Israel". A lot of people in Gaza sadly seem to be collateral damage in that proxy conflict.
...

Serious, what are you talking?
Are the news realy so strong to make you think so...

There are no enemy tanks, no air force, no modern missiles, no army. When did they start a massive attack with drones? When did they start a massive missle attack with modern missiles?

Its like an adult beating a kid....yes the kid was bad, but so the adult.....the last 75 years. And we do not raise our voice, we say,"such a bad boy"

Amd what you wrote about Hamas, i agree, but also replace Bibi.

[fiksal]

Iran is friendly with Hamas
Russia is friendly with Iran, and got a special thank you note from Hamas

Both could be giving money and some arms to Hamas.

I am unaware of any investigating that concretely draw the line though.

Still, one doesn't just get a thank you note for nothing

[Warenwolf]

That theory assumes that Palestinians in general and Hamas in particular has no agency. Also it is presumes that notoriously fractious Iranian security apparatus would have managed to keep October attacks secret from their many enemies.

Hamas on other hand has been facing both increased opposition in Gaza and social discontent while being increasingly seen as politically impotent just like Fatah is on West Bank. At same time Israel was making diplomatic inroads last years with their neighbors, further isolating Palestinians.

I think they banked on Israeli reaction and gambled on making this conflict regional.


If you are arab watching this on your TV, you will be enraged these days if your government getting allied with Israel:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/RZV_eQybHCA

[notaterran]

[...] "Iran's proxy war on Israel". A lot of people in Gaza sadly seem to be collateral damage in that proxy conflict.

You make it seem as if the Israelis are just defending themselves, as if genocide and forced relocations are exhibits of self-defense. The Israelis went from victims to perpetrators relatively quickly. Just call it what it is: vengeance, wrath, wanton violence... There's nothing proportionate about this response, even less considering the recent past.

One good thing (as far as anything "good" can come out of this) is that it's probably not going to explode into a wider conflict as I initially feared. Neighboring countries are protesting a lot but are not doing much, at least not directly.

[Imperial Good]

There are no enemy tanks, no air force, no modern missiles, no army. When did they start a massive attack with drones? When did they start a massive missle attack with modern missiles?

Hamas committed one of the largest terrorist acts in recent times. As a proportion of the population killed, tortured, mutilated or kidnapped the attack was on a far larger scale than the September 11 attacks in the USA. Nationals of many countries were victims of the attack. Some of the victims are still being used as human shields by Hamas.

What scale of retaliation do you think this justifies? Especially given that they could repeat such attacks, possibly at an even larger scale, in the future if left unstopped?

That theory assumes that Palestinians in general and Hamas in particular has no agency. Also it is presumes that notoriously fractious Iranian security apparatus would have managed to keep October attacks secret from their many enemies.

There are claims that Egypt tried to warn Israel of the imminent attack. Why Israel did not manage to stop the attacks is hard to say, and could be anything from disbelief that an attack of such scale would take place to the information provided was not sufficient to defend against the operation.

Same could be argued about September 11 attacks and why the USA did not stop them from happening. Very easy to argue in retrospect.

You make it seem as if the Israelis are just defending themselves, as if genocide and forced relocations are exhibits of self-defense.

There is little evidence of it being full scale genocide, although people do love to throw that word around. If Israel is guilty of genocide then Hamas certainly is as well.

The forced relocations in the Gaza strip during the war are part of the strategy to minimise civilian casualties. Most countries in war try to do this since keeping a lot of civilians around an active combat zone usually ends up with a lot of them dying. Them not being able to relocate is another issue, and likely a major contributing factor to the mounting civilian losses.

There's nothing proportionate about this response, even less considering the recent past.

What is a "proportionate" response for a terrorist attack of such scale? The act is certainly well past any sort of forget and forgive, especially when still openly supported in the region and technically on going as some people are still held captive.

The large scale loss of civilian lives can be attributed to a few factors.

• Gaza strip has a very high population density. Logic dictates that the higher the population density, the easier it becomes for civilians to end up entangled in active conflict.
• Hamas has no care for the lives of their civilians. They readily use them as human shields, their hospitals for military purposes and confiscate their possessions and aid for military use. These are large scale violations of modern combat/engagement rules and will significantly increase the loss of civilian life.
• Gaza is small. Where as in Ukraine it is possible for the civilians to evacuate cites that become active conflict zones by going to other parts of the country, Gaza is just too small and under-developed for this.
• Most of the world does not care. Where is Egypt or Lebanon accepting displaced Palestinian refugees by the millions? Gaza is small and the people are kept trapped there by more than just Israel.

Civilian casualties in the war are estimated to be slightly over 20,000 in over 2 months of conflict at the time of writing. For perspective the bombing of Dresden that occurred during World War 2 killed 25,000 people in 2 days. Dresden was a city of just ~500,000 people with a density of ~2,000/km^2. Gaza strip has ~2.5 million people with a density of ~6,500/km^2. From these numbers it is clear that Israel is making a major effort to keep civilian casualties down. If they were not we could easily be passed several hundred thousand civilian casualties by now.

I think a bigger concern will be long term loss of life due to poor living conditions. These could easily exceed the civilian casualties from the conflict. This is another reason why I think it is important that there is a long term rebuilding plan for the region, and not to leave people with a pile of rubble.

[Warenwolf]

That theory assumes that Palestinians in general and Hamas in particular has no agency. Also it is presumes that notoriously fractious Iranian security apparatus would have managed to keep October attacks secret from their many enemies.

There are claims that Egypt tried to warn Israel of the imminent attack. Why Israel did not manage to stop the attacks is hard to say, and could be anything from disbelief that an attack of such scale would take place to the information provided was not sufficient to defend against the operation.

Same could be argued about September 11 attacks and why the USA did not stop them from happening. Very easy to argue in retrospect.

I don't see how you comment is related at all with what I have stated regarding Iran's involvement. You put that theory forward few posts before my comment and it is on you to provide credible source or evidence.

There is little evidence of it being full scale genocide, although people do love to throw that word around. If Israel is guilty of genocide then Hamas certainly is as well.

The forced relocations in the Gaza strip during the war are part of the strategy to minimise civilian casualties. Most countries in war try to do this since keeping a lot of civilians around an active combat zone usually ends up with a lot of them dying. Them not being able to relocate is another issue, and likely a major contributing factor to the mounting civilian losses.

(...)

Here I will comment despite me not being the target of your response - while full scale genocide is perhaps not taking place, based on statements from political actors within Israel (ministers and like), what takes place on West Bank with Israeli settlers displacing Palestinians, discourse within Israel (like announcement about Gaza beach properties for Israelis few weeks ago and that song I linked to before), very questionable choices of targeting...and I can go on and on....it is very easy to come to conclusion that what Israeli government was/is desiring is an ethnic cleansing.

What is a "proportionate" response for a terrorist attack of such scale?

To quote U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, “In this kind of a fight, the center of gravity is the civilian population. And if you drive them into the arms of the enemy, you replace a tactical victory with a strategic defeat.”

Source:
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/civili ... 023-12-02/


That guy, politically obliged by his boss - US government, which is VERY pro-Israel, to take a pro-Israeli stance himself nominally, would not have made such statement if he considered Israeli actions so far "proportional".
67 % of Gaza citizen in a survey before October 7th expressed their discontent with Hamas. I can promise you that Hamas has plenty of supporters these days - google "insurgent math" to figure out why.

[Imperial Good]

I don't see how you comment is related at all with what I have stated regarding Iran's involvement. You put that theory forward few posts before my comment and it is on you to provide credible source or evidence.

Hamas literally committing suicide by starting the whole thing. Iranian supported Yemen fighters attacking cargo traffic, some of which might be destined for Israel. It makes sense that something bigger is behind it all than a few suicidal Hamas politicians. Iran makes the most sense given their persistent stance on the existence of Israel, as well as having sufficient resources to do so.

Here I will comment despite me not being the target of your response - while full scale genocide is perhaps not taking place, based on statements from political actors within Israel (ministers and like), what takes place on West Bank with Israeli settlers displacing Palestinians, discourse within Israel (like announcement about Gaza beach properties for Israelis few weeks ago and that song I linked to before), very questionable choices of targeting...and I can go on and on....it is very easy to come to conclusion that what Israeli government was/is desiring is an ethnic cleansing.

Israel has its share of Jewish extremists and some of them do get punished by Israel for their actions. Most countries have similar sort of extremists sadly.

If the punishment they receive is sufficient is another matter.

That guy, politically obliged by his boss - US government, which is VERY pro-Israel, to take a pro-Israeli stance himself nominally, would not have made such statement if he considered Israeli actions so far "proportional".
67 % of Gaza citizen in a survey before October 7th expressed their discontent with Hamas. I can promise you that Hamas has plenty of supporters these days - google "insurgent math" to figure out why.

It is all very easy to say from a detached intellectual perspective. But say your (description might not be appropriate for younger people)

Spoiler

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wife/husband was raped and/or had limbs chopped off and then executed, and one or more of your children shot in front of them and another kidnapped and taken back to Gaza to be used as a human shield and likely abused by Hamas soldiers.

How would you want your government to respond to that? This was the decision quite a lot of Israeli people were forced to make that day...

If the government did not take action, the people would likely move for one that does.

[Warenwolf]

Hamas literally committing suicide by starting the whole thing. Iranian supported Yemen fighters attacking cargo traffic, some of which might be destined for Israel. It makes sense that something bigger is behind it all than a few suicidal Hamas politicians. Iran makes the most sense given their persistent stance on the existence of Israel, as well as having sufficient resources to do so.

Again - that theory is only valid if you accept that Hamas has no agency and is merely extended arm of Iran, to such degree that they would act suicidally. And that status quo in region was sustainable indefinitely and would not spill out in violence. I consider that extremely naive evaluation of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict prior to the October last year. But you do you. For me they look like opportunistic player making stuff on the go. Unless someone puts some evidence out proving otherwise, I see no point in revising my opinion.

Here I will comment despite me not being the target of your response - while full scale genocide is perhaps not taking place, based on statements from political actors within Israel (ministers and like), what takes place on West Bank with Israeli settlers displacing Palestinians, discourse within Israel (like announcement about Gaza beach properties for Israelis few weeks ago and that song I linked to before), very questionable choices of targeting...and I can go on and on....it is very easy to come to conclusion that what Israeli government was/is desiring is an ethnic cleansing.

Israel has its share of Jewish extremists and some of them do get punished by Israel for their actions. Most countries have similar sort of extremists sadly.

If the punishment they receive is sufficient is another matter.

Sure every state has extremists. But when these people are financial minister, security minister, intelligence minister, etc, then their extremism is no longer extremism but part of the mainstream discourse. And has been for some time.

When state-owned TV station broadcasts children singing on how they will annihilating everyone in Gaza, I thought it was antisemitic propaganda - boy was I wrong:
https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023 ... ne-in-gaza

And that is what certain people, looking from outside in, are reacting to. Pretending or arguing that it does not or should not have any influence on the people's perception is very strange take on it.

That guy, politically obliged by his boss - US government, which is VERY pro-Israel, to take a pro-Israeli stance himself nominally, would not have made such statement if he considered Israeli actions so far "proportional".
67 % of Gaza citizen in a survey before October 7th expressed their discontent with Hamas. I can promise you that Hamas has plenty of supporters these days - google "insurgent math" to figure out why.

It is all very easy to say from a detached intellectual perspective.

Man stating that was a military veteran who earned his stripes fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. And what he said was not really revolutionary but has been part of military curriculum...50 years at least?

But all of that is irrelevant - this was US rather pointed message to Israel regarding proportionality of IDFs military operations in Gaza. Which is echoed by the french earlier today. So noterrans original statement is not the odd one here.

But say your (description might not be appropriate for younger people)

Spoiler

Show

wife/husband was raped and/or had limbs chopped off and then executed, and one or more of your children shot in front of them and another kidnapped and taken back to Gaza to be used as a human shield and likely abused by Hamas soldiers.

How would you want your government to respond to that? This was the decision quite a lot of Israeli people were forced to make that day...

If the government did not take action, the people would likely move for one that does.

Very weird to see a mod on egosoft forum resorting to moving a goalpast technique in a debate. To focus on the last part - the opposite of bad reaction is not lack of reaction. Why are we discussing a point I did not make?

As to the argument to emotions - I did face that dilemma, or to be precise my father and mother did, 30+ years ago in another war. They opted to stay human and not devolve into beasts. You have to be of certain age and culture to get that reference. That is what I have to say about that.

[Chips]

What is a "proportionate" response for a terrorist attack of such scale? The act is certainly well past any sort of forget and forgive, especially when still openly supported in the region and technically on going as some people are still held captive.

The large scale loss of civilian lives can be attributed to a few factors.

• Gaza strip has a very high population density. Logic dictates that the higher the population density, the easier it becomes for civilians to end up entangled in active conflict.
• Hamas has no care for the lives of their civilians. They readily use them as human shields, their hospitals for military purposes and confiscate their possessions and aid for military use. These are large scale violations of modern combat/engagement rules and will significantly increase the loss of civilian life.
• Gaza is small. Where as in Ukraine it is possible for the civilians to evacuate cites that become active conflict zones by going to other parts of the country, Gaza is just too small and under-developed for this.
• Most of the world does not care. Where is Egypt or Lebanon accepting displaced Palestinian refugees by the millions? Gaza is small and the people are kept trapped there by more than just Israel.

Civilian casualties in the war are estimated to be slightly over 20,000 in over 2 months of conflict at the time of writing. For perspective the bombing of Dresden that occurred during World War 2 killed 25,000 people in 2 days. Dresden was a city of just ~500,000 people with a density of ~2,000/km^2. Gaza strip has ~2.5 million people with a density of ~6,500/km^2. From these numbers it is clear that Israel is making a major effort to keep civilian casualties down. If they were not we could easily be passed several hundred thousand civilian casualties by now.

I think a bigger concern will be long term loss of life due to poor living conditions. These could easily exceed the civilian casualties from the conflict. This is another reason why I think it is important that there is a long term rebuilding plan for the region, and not to leave people with a pile of rubble.

I can see many many excuses for why the civilian casualties "may be high" only, with absolutely zero attribution to the one doing the bombings. Immediately raises questions.
As noted by Amnesty International, there are a lot of potential war crimes going on.

Additionally, don't use Dresden as a comparison to go "so it's not that bad is it?!". It's been 80 years. There were no precision weapons back then, and the bombing raid was indeed designed to "maximise chaos in the civilian transport system". It was, frankly, to terrorise and cause chaos while breaking the civilian workforce of a city and its ability to produce weapons. Various signatories over the years are precisely to prevent such a "justification" being used ever again. At the time it was highly controversial post-action, and led Churchill to say better consideration of targets are required.

However, basically referencing an 80 year old atrocity as a moral equivalence to excuse modern day actions is morally bankrupt. Dresden was a dark stain on the second world war, widely accepted as a terrible outcome and unnecessary given its inability to actually alter the war. To try and draw it as a parallel for a "so it's not so bad" is something I would be ashamed of uttering; the fact you are not is really concerning.

Israel doesn't give evidence to back it's claims of "legitimate target", nor risk assessments.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... ng-targets

Just look at the image in the article which is outlining Israel's targeting generation machine, and define that as all being Hamas legitimate targets. Then refer back to Amnesty International and findings that there's no sign of any military targets anywhere in many of the investigations they're conducting whereby families and civilians buildings have been destroyed, killing dozens at a time.

This isn't to even *begin* to attack voraciously your statement that Hospitals are just Hamas military installations. In the face of the actual evidence appearing post seize of one hospital claimed to be a military nerve centre, it should be humiliating to make that claim.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... g-hamas-hq

As said before, it's correct to castigate Hamas. They're a terrorist organisation with a stated aim of obliterating Israel.
But castigating Israel's unethical and, likely, illegal actions doesn't make you a Hamas supporter you know. It *is* possible to find the civilian death toll absolutely abhorrent; the indiscriminate killing of entire families as repulsive, and therefore not search desperately for excuses to justify the current outcome.

It's bloody awful. Just say it.

As for the flippant "most of the world doesn't care" - there have been marches around the world to call for an end of Israel's attacks that are killing civilians - from world leaders down to residents of cities such as New York, London, Paris and more.
https://www.ft.com/content/02847826-a04 ... f73e8c0984
https://www.commondreams.org/news/new-york-gaza-protest
(I literally could fill a thread with links to news articles covering the "world doesn't care...")

Yet another one of your statements that in the face of actual evidence, is just frankly wrong.

[Imperial Good]

Additionally, don't use Dresden as a comparison to go "so it's not that bad is it?!". It's been 80 years. There were no precision weapons back then, and the bombing raid was indeed designed to "maximise chaos in the civilian transport system". It was, frankly, to terrorise and cause chaos while breaking the civilian workforce of a city and its ability to produce weapons. Various signatories over the years are precisely to prevent such a "justification" being used ever again. At the time it was highly controversial post-action, and led Churchill to say better consideration of targets are required.

However, basically referencing an 80 year old atrocity as a moral equivalence to excuse modern day actions is morally bankrupt. Dresden was a dark stain on the second world war, widely accepted as a terrible outcome and unnecessary given its inability to actually alter the war. To try and draw it as a parallel for a "so it's not so bad" is something I would be ashamed of uttering; the fact you are not is really concerning.

This is exactly why it is a good comparison. If Israel was not caring about civilian casualties, like a lot of news claims, the loss of life would be on a similar scale, if not worse, per unit time. 2 months to have fewer deaths in an area over 3 times as dense with 5 times as many people who are being used as human shields by their government than what happened in 2 days back in World War 2. To me that looks like significant effort is being made to avoid indiscriminately or deliberately targeting civilians.

Sure it is not perfect. Wars seldom are sadly.

Just look at the image in the article which is outlining Israel's targeting generation machine, and define that as all being Hamas legitimate targets. Then refer back to Amnesty International and findings that there's no sign of any military targets anywhere in many of the investigations they're conducting whereby families and civilians buildings have been destroyed, killing dozens at a time.

The technology Israel is using is cutting edge western technology. If the USA or a European country were to be in a large scale war, chances are similar AI technology would be used at this point in time.

What different approaches could Israel use that would still be effective, minimise loss of their soldier life while producing fewer civilian casualties to combat Hamas?

As for the flippant "most of the world doesn't care" - there have been marches around the world to call for an end of Israel's attacks that are killing civilians - from world leaders down to residents of cities such as New York, London, Paris and more.

There has also been significant increase in anti-Semitic behaviour in places like the UK, where people are boycotting various brands and food chains due to their association or support of Israel. Anti-Semitic crimes are also greatly up.

People are probably feeling too strongly about it given how little it has to do with them. Protesting outside the Israel Embassy is fine, but boycotting businesses because someone on TikToc says they are associated with Israel, or committing crimes against Jewish people who have little to do with Israel is not.

(I literally could fill a thread with links to news articles covering the "world doesn't care...")

Protesting down random streets and boycotting shops is not caring. All that does is make one feel good with empty words without changing anything. Caring would be accepting millions of Gazan refugees to get them out of the conflict zone so that the war could be completed quicker, and with fewer civilian casualties. Like what happened with Ukraine where European countries accepted thousands of refugees. Iran, Lebanon, e.t.c. complaining how atrocious Israel is yet not moving to accept Gazan refugees shows you just how much they care about the Gazan people...

[notaterran]

There has also been significant increase in anti-Semitic behaviour in places like the UK, where people are boycotting various brands and food chains due to their association or support of Israel. Anti-Semitic crimes are also greatly up.

People are probably feeling too strongly about it given how little it has to do with them. Protesting outside the Israel Embassy is fine, but boycotting businesses because someone on TikToc says they are associated with Israel, or committing crimes against Jewish people who have little to do with Israel is not.

Don't conflate protesting Israel's war crimes with anti-Semitism. Just don't do that. Crimes against Jewish people are not ok, but boycotting a hypothetical business that supports Israel's war crimes is definitely a valid form of protest: protesting with our wallets.

You can't defend Israel's war crimes just like a Russian couldn't defend Russia's war crimes. Israel doesn't have the moral high ground, just like Russia. Bombing refugee camps... only a psychopath would find that necessary or justifiable. You're defending the indefensible.