The BAN waggon

[Avis]

Am I alone in wondering who the next person to get a ban threat stuck on 'em is,
there doesn't seem to be much of system, but I think I've figured it out.

#1* Use a handle like Vader, Rusti or something similar a threat of ban is iminent.

#2* Get angry even if you are pointing out a fact or defending yourself or someone else and a ban is about to hit (unless #3 or #4 also applies)

#3* Be a smart arse, but ensure your wording is cryptic enough to give 2 meanings feel free to piss off as many people as you like it's ok THEY will be threatened or actually banned not you for causing the trouble in the 1st place.

#4* Suggsting you are female buys you infinate tolerence points, most people don't seem to be able to grasp that females can be wrong or a trouble makers (they are not all fairness and all things sweet and nice).

These are observations over the past coupld of weeks (ie since pier moderation was introduced), looks guys I'm not having a lets bash Paul, CJ and Steel thing, because on the whole you guys have actually done a bang on job, just I'm seing the same thing over and over, (you know EXACTLY who and what I'm talking about).
just check how many people have been banned or threatened with a ban due to ONE or possible TWO,, ok maybe THREE people who use the same handle(s).. then look through the history of these people and how it came to be, don't just jump in lay down the law.

ok Rant Over.

[Apothos]

Am I alone in wondering who the next person to get a ban threat stuck on 'em is,
there doesn't seem to be much of system, but I think I've figured it out.

#1* Use a handle like Vader, Rusti or something similar a threat of ban is iminent.

#2* Get angry even if you are pointing out a fact or defending yourself or someone else and a ban is about to hit (unless #3 or #4 also applies)

#3* Be a smart arse, but ensure your wording is cryptic enough to give 2 meanings feel free to piss off as many people as you like it's ok THEY will be threatened or actually banned not you for causing the trouble in the 1st place.

#4* Suggsting you are female buys you infinate tolerence points, most people don't seem to be able to grasp that females can be wrong or a trouble makers (they are not all fairness and all things sweet and nice).

These are observations over the past coupld of weeks (ie since pier moderation was introduced), looks guys I'm not having a lets bash Paul, CJ and Steel thing, because on the whole you guys have actually done a bang on job, just I'm seing the same thing over and over, (you know EXACTLY who and what I'm talking about).
just check how many people have been banned or threatened with a ban due to ONE or possible TWO,, ok maybe THREE people who use the same handle(s).. then look through the history of these people and how it came to be, don't just jump in lay down the law.

ok Rant Over.

I agree - it boils my blood!

[carran]

yup, I agree too

[Belgarath]

Personally, I don't worry about it. I just try to keep my nose clean and stay away from the topics that tend to get people banned. I'm not here to argue. I'm just here to have fun and talk about the best game ever made. Well..... And to occasionally promote my radio show (which will be on the air this coming Saturday evening).

[carran]

Personally, I don't worry about it. I just try to keep my nose clean and stay away from the topics that tend to get people banned. I'm not here to argue. I'm just here to have fun and talk about the best game ever made. Well..... And to occasionally promote my radio show (which will be on the air this coming Saturday evening).

Do I take it you're going to be around then??

If so good on you.

[pjknibbs]

just check how many people have been banned or threatened with a ban due to ONE or possible TWO,, ok maybe THREE people who use the same handle(s).. then look through the history of these people and how it came to be, don't just jump in lay down the law.

We'd much rather let situations calm down by themselves, because it's practically impossible to permanently ban someone who's using a dial-up connection without banning their entire ISP, which is hardly fair, is it? If people just ignored the trolls they'd go away and have their fun somewhere else, and no bans or thread locking would be required.

I'll also refer you to the forum rules, which state that offensive language is not to be used--and Vader was the only person who used it in the thread you're presumably referring to.

[SteveMill]

Not so sure. I agree that a much more rigorous approach to trolling is needed. It is very difficult sometimes, when faced with clear and deliberate provocation such as is going on at the moment, to walk away, particularly when it just cedes the field to the troll. Even as laid back and tolerant a person as me gets the urge to crush, kill and destroy sometimes but I shouldn't.

This board needs clearly enforced policies on two things in this regard.

First - a clear and unambigious policy against trolling.

Second - a complete ban on anyone using second accounts for any purpose. Why do you do it? It's not as if its particularly difficult to do so cleverness isn't being rewarded, and if it's just to wind people up then it's straight-forward trolling. And using them to spam the board with irrelevant nonsense is just plain childish.

I don't know the technicalities but isn't there some way to detect this, at least in some instances?

I know a lot of perfectly respectable members do this without intending to cause trouble, I just can't see why. If your contribution is worthwhile, surely you can make it under your own name. If it isn't then you are spamming.

Anyways - swift and merciless crackdowns on trolls is the most important.

Now what I would really like would be a way for me to specify users that are automatically excluded from contributing to threads I start.

[Gandalf The White]

Hi PJnibs,

I have seen another thread where said language was used. Another hot one and no it's not suitible for young ones like Snowy, Danfin, Crysilis, need I go on folks?

There are rules there now. You really would have to be blind to miss them. Do what I have done recently as Steel can confirm, if there is something you are not sure about, PM him, or I have added him and Burnit to my MSN so I can deal with it that way if necessary.

[SteveMill]

just check how many people have been banned or threatened with a ban due to ONE or possible TWO,, ok maybe THREE people who use the same handle(s).. then look through the history of these people and how it came to be, don't just jump in lay down the law.

I'll also refer you to the forum rules, which state that offensive language is not to be used--and Vader was the only person who used it in the thread you're presumably referring to.

No - I find the entire slimey, insinuating tone of M's posts to be deeply offensive, much more so than harsh language. My contributions to that thread fall into that category too.

[Belgarath]

Do I take it you're going to be around then??

If so good on you.

Yes, I'm hanging out here a bit.

Actually, I've started playing XT again. Started a new game and I am currently building my empire all over again. I just completed seeding all the sectors with navsats. I've also done quite a bit of capturing and have at least one of every fighter in the game. I love this game.

[Gandalf The White]

Do I take it you're going to be around then??

If so good on you.

Yes, I'm hanging out here a bit.

Actually, I've started playing XT again. Started a new game and I am currently building my empire all over again. I just completed seeding all the sectors with navsats. I've also done quite a bit of capturing and have at least one of every fighter in the game. I love this game.

Wayhay! Bel is back. Good for you mate.

Hope the smilie things are in the right place!

[Avis]

@Paul
In part I was refering to the Vader post in 'that thread' but not entirely.
this is more an ongoing in any thread you like which has certain posters in it.
re-vaders threat, Was it a threat or a simple metaphore, akin to the one you yourself made to Xao regarding the hacking of the forum (ie metaphorically speaking hacking the forum was akin to breaking into someones house to prove the security didn't work properly), vaders argument read very similar, in that is was a hyperthetical location and a comparison as to what would happen in real world).

Certain individuals are being a smart a***, abusing other forum users under the pretence they are doing it for the greater good, deliberately causing 'conflicts' which result in the more hot headed amongst us being issued the ban notice when it is plain as day to anyone reading who provoked who, yes I know we are not supposed to retaliate, but so far a very one sided approach has been employed by the mods IMHO.

and for all it is true the LETTER of the law (or rules) has not been broken the SPIRIT most definately has been (part of the problem of posting a vague set of forum rules, there is always some smart a*** who works around them).

I do appreciate that there is limited options at your (the mods) disposal but threatening the regulars isn't the way, you are yourselves making the situation worse by fueling the troll more than any recourse from us members ever could. not only are tehy winding people up but they are getting people banned (think about it).

[SteveMill]

Certain individuals are being a smart a***, abusing other forum users under the pretence they are doing it for the greater good, deliberately causing 'conflicts' which result in the more hot headed amongst us being issued the ban notice when it is plain as day to anyone reading who provoked who, yes I know we are not supposed to retaliate, but so far a very one sided approach has been employed by the mods IMHO.

Very much like parents or teachers who blame the kid whose defending himself from bullying as much as the bully, if you know what I mean. You know the troll is being deliberately provocative. Ignore him and he'll go away may or may not work but meanwhile the board continues to die away as no-one is willing to start even a mildly interesting OT post it seems, knowing it'll just be troll bait.

[Gandalf The White]

Hi Avis,

The issue is, as I see it at the moment, that there has been insidents of bad language. Now we do have young people on the forum. As young as 10. Whilst a playground is a dictionary for sware words, should this forum be the same?

Don't get me wrong, I am not implying that the forum is full of that sort of thing, but at the end of the day, it's important to stop said language now before it starts. And as for hot headed folk, then it's up to them if they don't show restraint.

The mods are doing the right thing in that they are letting it blow over. It takes to to make an arguement and it also takes 2 to finnish it.

[Avis]

Hi Avis,

The issue is, as I see it at the moment, that there has been insidents of bad language. Now we do have young people on the forum. As young as 10. Whilst a playground is a dictionary for sware words, should this forum be the same?

Don't get me wrong, I am not implying that the forum is full of that sort of thing, but at the end of the day, it's important to stop said language now before it starts. And as for hot headed folk, then it's up to them if they don't show restraint.

The mods are doing the right thing in that they are letting it blow over. It takes to to make an arguement and it also takes 2 to finnish it.

Re-Language
I do actually agree to an extent, that 'restraint' should be used, but not TOTAL, most of us are adults, this forum is not X-the-Kiddie-forum, the game inherantly isn't a Quake or Street Fighter so doesn't attrackt as many younger players (ok I may be mistaken), but draconian rules of NO swearing are not enforced on this forum just consideration.
the internet has FAR FAR worse things than the odd naughty word (and worse than any school yard) so taking a moral high horse is meaningless in a games forum, take the tie to visit any Quake forum which is predominately kids, I have NEVER seen anything in the same league on this forum in terms of racial/homophobic/sexist biggotry.

The mods are NOT letting it blow over that is the whole problem, regular posters are getting the threats, the trouble maker is being ignored and allowed free reign, yes I know the point of ignoring a troll is to ermm ignore them but issueing threats against people who stand up to the troll is hardly appropriate, as steve has mentioned a troll is only there to provoke and unfortunately humans do bite when someone rubs the wrong way no matter what rules there are posted, it is instinct a product of tens of thousands of years of evolution a simple request on a sticky doesn't weigh up against those credentials

[xaotik]

it is instinct a product of tens of thousands of years of evolution a simple request on a sticky doesn't weigh up against those credentials ;-) :-P

good point - let's go for a full-on DNA reconstruction of all forum members...

[Gandalf The White]

But, can't any of you see the true intent? It's so obvious you really would have to be blind not to see it.

Grim isn't helping matters much by posting a dilliberate thread to start it up, can't remember the exact name of it, but "where did he go" rings a bell if I am not mistaken.

Now, If I had an emeny or several, I would watch, weight and observe them until I had a plan of atack that I know would work. You can still cause problems and not get banned, if you couldn't do that, then we wouldn't have such things as "pieceful demonstrations." We all know what they are, we have all seen/herd about them in the passed, may be some of us have indeed taken part. To some, a "pieceful demonstration" is causing trouble or an envite for it.

As for language, well, what about folk like Danfin/Fleg/Crisilis/Snowy? If their parents read some of the language on hear, they might just stop them from coming on the forum. With nany programmes and satificats and the like. You can still block sites from individual machines. That's what perental control is about. I would hate to think that such people would be stopped from coming to a place like this, because it is a greaat place to be. But, people do need to hold back from time to time.

Nobody has ever seen me fully let goo either on hear or on THQ, I sincerely hope they nevr do. So for the most part I do hold back. I have let go a little in the passed when thinngs have got on top of me for a reason or another. Can't take it back, no point. Nor would I try. What's done is done. But, people can help the situation by not adding to it. "note, am only debating, not pointing fingurs or anything like that."

As for what we find offencive/not offencive, well, that's a very difficult thing to deal with. Because we are all individuals, because we are all individuals, we all have either slight differences of opinions, or complete opersit differences of opinion. Look at Rusty and DM for example, they are the classic exammple, any thread they both got involved in, for the most part turned into a flamewar because 1 couldn't resist shooting at the other. "note again, a general observation only." I have my own thoughts on that, some of you know exactly what they are, so I don't need to air them again.

At the end of the day, a fire won't go out when both sides are adding to it. You all know that as well as I do. And yes I havve started a few and contributed to as well. Not just on hear, but, who hasn't done that?

[Avis]

@The Doctor aka Daz,
for what it's worth, I respect your oppinion (on this and other threads as a whole) but this forum even at it's worste never came close to just about any other games forum I've visited, expecting unrealistic high moral standards on a net forum is day dreaming, the anonimity of the internet gives some of our younger users there 1st feeling of power over others, it doesn't matter that they are 4ft 3' and covered in achne, this is a good and a bad thing, its's good because they can as an equal engage in discutions and debates without fear of ridicule for there appearance (not that an adult would anyway as we all know puberty is part of life, but teenagers are very concious of it) but on the down side it allows them the freedom to abuse others safe in the knowledge that there are very limited comebacks.

and for the record this forum does NOT have a no swearing rule, the rule is 'Mild swearing is permitted (we are not saints either y'know). Minors do use these boards. Please bear that in mind.'-steel, read this 1st sticky thread.

As for the members you listed I have no idea, so couldn't possibly comment (I havn't read anything since a certain other thread on other forum where Apothos was on the recieving end of some foul language).
but they were not the people I was thinking of anyway in regards to being threatened with bans.

[Gandalf The White]

Hi Avis,

I am glad that we can talk about this openly and amicably because that's what healthy debate is all about, and it's also nice to be able to talk with someone who knows the difference between debate and outright flames.
Ok, going to put my points between what you have said, so I can make sure that they all fit and make sence!

@The Doctor aka Daz,
for what it's worth, I respect your oppinion (on this and other threads as a whole) but this forum even at it's worste never came close to just about any other games forum I've visited, expecting unrealistic high moral standards on a net forum is day dreaming, the anonimity of the internet gives some of our younger users there 1st feeling of power over others, it doesn't matter that they are 4ft 3' and covered in achne, this is a good and a bad thing, its's good because they can as an equal engage in discutions and debates without fear of ridicule for there appearance (not that an adult would anyway as we all know puberty is part of life, but teenagers are very concious of it) but on the down side it allows them the freedom to abuse others safe in the knowledge that there are very limited comebacks.


Yes I agree that abuse of power is a problem. I could mention a few grous in general that do it, but if I was to do that, well I would be slated by all and called heathen and other such names. I am sure you are aware of what I am on about, in general, not forum related.

and for the record this forum does NOT have a no swearing rule, the rule is 'Mild swearing is permitted (we are not saints either y'know). Minors do use these boards. Please bear that in mind.'-steel, read this 1st sticky thread.

Yes, conceeded, it doesn't say totally, I shall conceed that one. So what I would say there, that further guide lines are recomended. I say this, because if you get someone who's religion totally forbids swaring, then any sware word would be considered offencive. I have met a few people like that, so how do we cater for them as well? We either say, swaring permitted, and give examples of user friendly words, or, we say non at all. This is slightly going away from my earlier point to do with young ones, but, it is still connected.

As for the members you listed I have no idea, so couldn't possibly comment (I havn't read anything since a certain other thread on other forum where Apothos was on the recieving end of some foul language).
but they were not the people I was thinking of anyway in regards to being threatened with bans.

Danfin is about 15, Fleg is about 12, Snowy is about 14 and Crisilis is no less than 10 years old. So, we do have a very wide age range on this forum. Something that we should be proud of, because the interest in this game goes through the generations and that's no mean feet. That's why this place is worth protecting, and that's why I have for a long time, especially on THQ have been pushing for a do's and don'ts thread.

[SteveMill]

I agree Avis, this is probably the best-behaved board I frequent and with, by and large, the most mature members. It's certainly paradise, with a cherry on top, compared to the average FPS dive.

Perhaps this thread can be seen, by the mods, as our constructive attempt to help develop a much needed policy towards trolling and how to deal with it.

Undeniably, we need to exercise restraint in our responses to provocation. I'd also argue that we need to watch our own activities too. It's difficult to seize the high ground if you are using multiple accounts to post flibble drivel and some of the other toe-curling playground juvenalia spamming the board.

That sets a tone and example we can hardly blame others for picking up and running with. If long-standing members cannot resist jumping up and down yelling "look at me, look at me!" then new members will just take their cue.

And I'm aware Flibble is a second account, I don't know who so don't take too much offense, its just the first example of content and humour-free but self-humiliation-rich spam that comes to mind.

Oh for the good old days when on-topic creativity bloomed.