Player owned ships don't do damage to stations OOS - Fix in a build after 7.60

[NeiroAtOpelCC]

I've got a current unmodded game based on a custom budgetted start with my HQ in Heretic's End.
Except for a spaceweed farm I built early on to get money, my only non defence platform station is my HQ where I produce all my ships (Early ones bought by Argon or MIN).
I'm trying to eradicate the Boron, but they keep comming back due to a bug.
My ships seem unable to damage enemy stations while I'm not present, but they, I think, can damage ships.
My forces are Behemoth E's as police in the sectors previously owned by Boron, my traders are Atlas Vanguards (also have some M traders and Crane miners).
Every once in a while I have to teleport to an attacking Behemoth to initiate damage.
This means I can't fight the Boron in more than one sector at a time, and I can't handle Xenon encroachment at the same time.

Is there a fix?

I saw an old thread where the issue had to do with ships being 'born' without weapons. That is not the case here. I order all my ships with the final spec.

I don't see a way to add a file to the topic, so I put my save at my homepage. it's opel.cc/quicksave.xml.gz

[j.harshaw]

Can't confirm.
On load, I'm in one of your capital ships attacking a station. Teleported out, and damage continues to be done to that station. The rate at which damage is done on both sides is lower, that's normal.

[Alan Phipps]

Hi. That sounds a lot like this sort of recent thread too but you don't really give us much information (such as game version, progress in the game and empire complexity, and whether modded, etc) from which usefully to suggest 'a fix'.

The Sticky thread that you will find at the top of the Tech Sp forum tells you how to give links to evidence files, and that forum is probably more suited for this sort of report too once that evidence is provided.

EDIT: NInja'd by a dev.

[LameFox]

I have seen in the past that sometimes when initiating combat in low attention a destroyer would stop (apparently?) too far away to fire or something, and just not realise it needed to move closer. This tended to rectify itself when I teleported in or ordered the ship to move, but it was hard to report usefully because it just wasn't very consistent in the first place.

I had guessed that maybe in low attention the range is measured differently, like to the centre instead of a particular module, but not really sure.

[NeiroAtOpelCC]

Can't confirm.
On load, I'm in one of your capital ships attacking a station. Teleported out, and damage continues to be done to that station. The rate at which damage is done on both sides is lower, that's normal.

Yeah I see the confusion. I'm in one of the Behemoths to avoid the issue. Once I'm in sector everything works - even after exiting again, until a while later. I'll notice when it's no longer working by the stations being fully surrounded but not taking damage.
I suppose I should've provided a save game from before I teleported in. I didn't think of posting here until I found a thread talking about weapon range with a similar symptom from 5 years ago.

As for more context, the game says version 7.60 when I open the menu. I have all the expansions.
It's running in Steam with overlay enabled on a Windows 11 Enterprise (24H2) on a Ryzen 3900X with 64GB low latency memory and a 7900 GRE. Not that I think hardware's the issue - the game is so poor at utilizing it anyway.
In my game start I set HAT to +29 and argon at +20 and spent the rest on some of the hard to increase reps. I moved my HQ, bought a defence station in hatvika's choice and a ship to collect inventory there. I got myself a seta device. Then I spent some money on satellite coverage and put the rest into eggs to sell for caviar once the game started. I don't recall exactly where I put the story mission stages, but generally I did so where there seemed to be the most conflict.
Then I slowly made more defence stations and harvested more xenon, setting them up to dump inventory in my HQ while I built up hull parts and claytronics production there and sat with seta active at the hat free port.
I started purchasing miners from MIN, expanding my HQ in 11 stages, eventually buying some behemoths because somehow while afk my boron status dropped negative due to unauthorized kills (no idea how, explicitly not using missile weapons to avoid this), so I decided to get rid of them. Took my Erlking and a few Behemoths I bought from Argon and removed them from their sectors. Then I bought a Behemoth per sector and put a defence platform of course (26M per sector expenses) and had them police the place while in seta. Then I noticed the issue - once the Boron stations came back in, the policing ships couldn't break the stations. So I doubled the amount of ships, but no change. At this point I could build xl ships, so I ordered a hundred Behemoths and let the game run while away for a day. When I came back Xenon had expanded on the other side, so I just sent about 10 into the most infested Boron sector to attack all the stations explicitly, and took the rest of the ships on a hunt to kill Xenon. There I noticed that my ships also didn't kill stations. I teleported in to see what was happening, and when I entered the Behemoth I saw the animation for the front opening up and they all started shooting their main guns. No shots were on the way before then - so they simply do not shoot unless I am there to initiate it. I learned that when I teleport back out (I went to the Boron sector to see the same issue there), at some point later it stops working again. So I ended up having to just stay in sector and babysit my fleet.
That is the backstory and why I have a huge army waiting at the gate in Tharka's Cascade and a smaller one at Ore Belt - they're waiting for me to attend them, so they can do damage in the next sector. I haven't tested it, but I assume if you'd load my game and send them into the sectors to kill Boron and Xenon, no damage would befall their bases.

I know that restarting the game doesn't solve the issue, as I'm usually only playing a few hours after work.

[NeiroAtOpelCC]

Hi. That sounds a lot like this sort of recent thread too but you don't really give us much information (such as game version, progress in the game and empire complexity, and whether modded, etc) from which usefully to suggest 'a fix'.

The Sticky thread that you will find at the top of the Tech Sp forum tells you how to give links to evidence files, and that forum is probably more suited for this sort of report too once that evidence is provided.

EDIT: NInja'd by a dev.

Ya that person's experience sounds similar. I haven't tried the stream, as I've just teleported there instead, but it could be the same issue.
As for that sticky thread - I didn't even know there was a tech sp forum - I just found this forum by doing a web search, finding a reddit post that referred to an old issue, and saw that it was a forum.
I've subbed to the other thread, so if a solution is posted there I might get notified somehow.

[j.harshaw]

I have seen in the past that sometimes when initiating combat in low attention a destroyer would stop (apparently?) too far away to fire or something, and just not realise it needed to move closer.

Will try this. Thanks. But yeah, a save from before they start attacking would be ideal, but a save while they're already attacking but not doing damage would likely also be good. Might be something specific to the case(s) where this happens.

[NeiroAtOpelCC]

I have updated the quicksave to one where I have 132 Behemoths trying to pummel AHI-388 (Xenon Solar plant) in Tharka's Cascade XVII and nothing will happen to it while I'm not around. Soon as I teleport though, it'll take damage. The Xenon welcome party at the gate could be destroyed. I lost 2 Behemoths I think, and they lost 3 K's and an I plus the smaller stuff.
It's exactly like the other thread - if I live stream in, a module goes boom within a second, but soon's I'm not looking, they refuse to do damage and I'll only lose my ships to their K's and I's murdering mine one by one.
Please someone see if that is the same behavour for you. I'm currently sitting in a Dart with seta on in another sector, so it's just a matter of loading the game and moving the map over

[H34Dru5H]

Please someone see if that is the same behavour for you. I'm currently sitting in a Dart with seta on in another sector, so it's just a matter of loading the game and moving the map over

Yes, I have just had the same behaviour with capitals attacking Xenon stations. Either the ships stop too short and just sit there or the station starts jiggling on the map takes 1 or 2% damage then no damage. On one occasion I had 2 Behemoths and a Syn attacking together, the station appeared to be taking damage but nothing happened for like forever. Using Live View I could see the ships pummeling the station and modules started exploding and the station hull percentage dropping as expected but when I exit Live View or am away from sector the damage stops and the station starts to repair while still being attacked! A few NPC capitals joined the fight and still the station hull percentage was going up. Eventually I just sat there watching in Live View and waited for the station to be completely destroyed.

This is all since Ver 7.6, I will check my autosaves to see if there's anything useful but I suspect they are all Ver 7.5 since I F5 quite regularly...

Edit:
Well what a result, I have one autosave Ver 7.6 vanilla showing this behaviour, 6 NPC capitals attacking a Xenon Wharf in Family Nhuut. The station is at 99% hull, after a full 5 minutes in SETA the damage stays at 99%, briefly reverting to 100% a few times. I went to Live View of the station still in SETA, the ships are firing and the station started exploding. Withing 1 minute the station hull dropped to 94%, I left Live View (OOS) and continued to watch, in 2min and 15 seconds the station was back up to 97% hull. I hope this helps...

Save:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yocpWL ... drive_link

[NeiroAtOpelCC]

Please someone see if that is the same behavour for you. I'm currently sitting in a Dart with seta on in another sector, so it's just a matter of loading the game and moving the map over

Yes, I have just had the same behaviour with capitals attacking Xenon stations. Either the ships stop too short and just sit there or the station starts jiggling on the map takes 1 or 2% damage then no damage. On one occasion I had 2 Behemoths and a Syn attacking together, the station appeared to be taking damage but nothing happened for like forever. Using Live View I could see the ships pummeling the station and modules started exploding and the station hull percentage dropping as expected but when I exit Live View or am away from sector the damage stops and the station starts to repair while still being attacked! A few NPC capitals joined the fight and still the station hull percentage was going up. Eventually I just sat there watching in Live View and waited for the station to be completely destroyed.

This is all since Ver 7.6, I will check my autosaves to see if there's anything useful but I suspect they are all Ver 7.5 since I F5 quite regularly...

Okay so this is definetly not just my installation of the game. Thanks for the input.
I've resorted to having a bunch of behemoths attack and just sit in live view with seta on. I get 3-4fps while watching beacon, but at least it doesn't take hours to clear a single sector this way.

[H34Dru5H]

Just edited my post with a save clearly showing the problem, hope it helps.

[xrogaan]

Can't confirm.
On load, I'm in one of your capital ships attacking a station. Teleported out, and damage continues to be done to that station. The rate at which damage is done on both sides is lower, that's normal.

It's from the beta (see viewtopic.php?p=5279767#p5279767). Some people don't experience the issue. The save game I linked there was created in 7.00 and not modded. There is an earlier save of that playthrough floating around the beta forum with the xenon more intact, I just need to figure out how to list the topics I started.

Being in the sector isn't solving the issue per say, you need to be close enough to the station being bombarded.

Edit: This save from a month ago should provide more opportunities to observe the issue.
The split defense station in Family Zhin (OYX-699) is in a state of invulnerability and tank Xenon assaults.
Atiya's Misfortune I: Xenon shipyard VKN-943 is being bombarded, but doesn't take damage.
Emperor's Pride V: Xenon Shipyard URF-383 is often targetted, but doesn't take damage (it eventually did later in my playthrough though).
Most Xenon station are impervious to being damaged. IIRC, around this time, Scale Plate Green is being invaded by the Teladi but most of the Xenon stations are not taking damage.

[j.harshaw]

Save:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yocpWL ... drive_link

Edit: This save from a month ago should provide more opportunities to observe the issue.

Thank you kindly

[j.harshaw]

found the bug. quashing. where'd my flipflops go?

[j.harshaw]

Fixed. Thanks all for the report and the helpful saves. Fix should be in a future update.

[j.harshaw]

Yes, I have just had the same behaviour ...

Confirm same issue. Fix holding.

Atiya's Misfortune I: Xenon shipyard VKN-943 is being bombarded, but doesn't take damage.
Emperor's Pride V: Xenon Shipyard URF-383 is often targetted, but doesn't take damage (it eventually did later in my playthrough though).
Most Xenon station are impervious to being damaged. IIRC, around this time, Scale Plate Green is being invaded by the Teladi but most of the Xenon stations are not taking damage.

Confirm same issue. Fix holding.

The split defense station in Family Zhin (OYX-699) is in a state of invulnerability and tank Xenon assaults.

This would likely be a different case, but can't confirm.

[xrogaan]

found the bug. quashing. where'd my flipflops go?

Thanks for the quashing, the buzzing noise was aggravating.

The split defense station in Family Zhin (OYX-699) is in a state of invulnerability and tank Xenon assaults.

This would likely be a different case, but can't confirm.

I had assumed that stations belonging to a faction other to Xenon, and not taking damage while bombarded with the player OOS was tied to the same issue. Could you expand a little bit on the reason you cannot confirm? Is it that the Xenon didn't attack in a timely fashion?

[j.harshaw]

I had assumed that stations belonging to a faction other to Xenon, and not taking damage while bombarded with the player OOS was tied to the same issue. Could you expand a little bit on the reason you cannot confirm? Is it that the Xenon didn't attack in a timely fashion?

Explanation's very technical and it rarely enhances anyone's enjoyment of the game to understand it in this detail, but since you asked (I'll wrap it in spoiler tags in case anyone wants to maintain the illusion):

Spoiler

Show

When doing damage to something away from the player, the functions we use require that the target be a particular type of object (if the target's a station, it has to be the station). If close to the player and targeting a station, the target has to be a solid object that constitutes the station - a station module or a surface element. On attention change (when something transitions from being close to the player to being far away) or if an attack begins away from the player, the target is acquired or changed correctly; but over the course of the battle, the captain can send a signal to weapon control that changes the target to a module. In all of the cases that I looked into today where I managed to get the bug to manifest (9 in total), this was the cause and I can confirm that the fix to this logic has held.

I'd expect this to only affect capital ships that use forward-mounted weapons, so not the Xenon I or K. That said, it is possible that they'd also be affected, but wasn't able to confirm. If they are affected by the same bug, the fix should apply to them as well.

[xrogaan]

I had assumed that stations belonging to a faction other to Xenon, and not taking damage while bombarded with the player OOS was tied to the same issue. Could you expand a little bit on the reason you cannot confirm? Is it that the Xenon didn't attack in a timely fashion?

Explanation's very technical and it rarely enhances anyone's enjoyment of the game to understand it in this detail, but since you asked (I'll wrap it in spoiler tags in case anyone wants to maintain the illusion):

Spoiler

Show

When doing damage to something away from the player, the functions we use require that the target be a particular type of object (if the target's a station, it has to be the station). If close to the player and targeting a station, the target has to be a solid object that constitutes the station - a station module or a surface element. On attention change (when something transitions from being close to the player to being far away) or if an attack begins away from the player, the target is acquired or changed correctly; but over the course of the battle, the captain can send a signal to weapon control that changes the target to a module. In all of the cases that I looked into today where I managed to get the bug to manifest (9 in total), this was the cause and I can confirm that the fix to this logic has held.

I'd expect this to only affect capital ships that use forward-mounted weapons, so not the Xenon I or K. That said, it is possible that they'd also be affected, but wasn't able to confirm. If they are affected by the same bug, the fix should apply to them as well.

Thanks for the details. My confusion and fear has been lifted. I'll wait for the next patch with trepidation.

[Pogromche]

Same problem. I see you've sorted out the problem, but maybe my save will help you somehow too.
1. Ver. 7.60 (562021) language: rus
2. Vanilla
3. The game start: wayward heir
4. The same problem as at the beginning of the topic.
more details:http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... 03069b8a26
5. No changes were made to the game or the system.
6. Save: http://drive.google.com/file/d/1DthUZJS ... drive_link
7. DXDiag: http://drive.google.com/file/d/14iQDrGY ... drive_link