My observations on the Xenon

[z1ppeh]

THIS POST CONTAINS A CERTAIN LEVEL OF SPOILERS

Here are my ramblings after many many saves played through until either completion of my ideas or total galaxy annihilation. On a usual par it is about 10 days playtime (roughly averaging 8-14 hours a day playtime usually so my saves are over pretty quickly).

After, lets say a few hours, playing since the 7.5 beta initially unravelled and through the entirety of 7.5 I have noticed, as have many many other players noticed, that there is a rather sad effect now happening against the poor Xenon.

This is happening in vanilla, where its heavily noticable, and modded games. Whilst modding, there is a stark difference in that the majority of overhaul type mods don’t really boost the XEN up to an equivalent level so having to manually boost them and compensate with their economy is a bit of a chore to get them right to provide a challenge from them.

PROBLEM: To put it simply, the factions have become stronger thus the XEN are getting annihilated everywhere except one foothold (Tharkas Cascade through to Savage Spur) with the possibility of Two (Rhys Defiance) but only if ZYA are backfooted from ARG taking a good standpoint in Guiding Star. This creates a rather large problem in that Tharkas Cascade and through is then inevitably killed off via the Yaki Plot (depending on the options ofc), which would leave Rhys Defiance as the sold last remaining XEN outpost... and thats a weak area.

HOW? I've noticed that a small thing is having a knock-on effect that's snowballing into something much bigger. Station miners for the NPC factions. This coupled with the poor XEN and their ability to sufficiently stock their own shipyard/wharf to keep production flowing and wasting economy ships by sending them elsewhere to failing areas (which should be building their own) OR bad XEN ship movement from one place to another for invasion/defence fleets which causes losses and wasted time and a bad defence mechanic. There are a cluster of XEN mining ships in Savage Spur 2 in a dead end system with no way to get any of the materials backwards which basically puts that as wasted economy stations and ships.

Factions are getting raw materials much much better, keeping their miners flowing, traders flowing and their shipyards/wharfs producing at a previously unprecedented rate without player intervention. The knock-on effect is that their defence fleets and invasion fleets are much better filled and equipped. Whether the RNG of loadout is hitting aswell is beyond my looking but the factions are easily taking out every XEN cluster with little to no issue. The stark contrast between previous iterations where XEN could at least invade a few sectors without issue, whether they took them properly or not or flourished from there is also another thing.

They are just, compared to the other factions, weak and no longer provide a threat in the galaxy.

In the majority of players games, XEN should be an enemy. They may, in a LOT of players galaxies, be the players ONLY real enemy due to the player being ‘friends to all’.

In many many saves across the various galaxies I have noticed the following:

TEL without fail every single time smash through Scaleplate Green. This is hands down the simplest and easiest place that gets taken almost always first or a very close second in every game. They provide zero challenge for TEL and this is a guaranteed win for them. This then leaves TEL only one real route to go, Matrix 451 and Matrix 9, which their invasion fleets are fully stocked and ready to roll these guys too with relative ease due to numbers alone. This is almost a set route of how they operate every… single… game. Breeze through SPG, waltz through 451/9 without a single issue. Zero really hurts them unless some random occurance (and I mean once in a modded playthrough where XEN made it through to kill the TEL wharf which seems to scupper them completely).

HOP without fail every game have taken Faulty Logic and then its a cakewalk into Atiyas. After maybe 5-6 games, I have seen HOP fail maybe once… and by fail, I mean that they didn’t take it completely before I finally intervened to eradicate HOP (approx 5-6 days playtime usually). The knock on effect of this is that HOPs invasion fleets having such a steamrolling effect in this direction that it seems to stop their attacks into Second Contact 2 or Pious Mists too much. Not that that is a bad thing since obviously the invasion mechanic is as it is, but if PAR do decide to take a real effort at Pontifex’s Claim then its not really hard for them to do it. ANT seem to always fail when they attempt True Sight, mostly because they have a weak military rather than HOP defences. But if luck has it and they strike twice in reasonable timings? HOP lose True Sight but that is about as far as that war really goes.

Tharkas Ravine? Never a problem anyway. It feels that they have no real reason to own that sector and my guessimates put it as a kill route to somehow calm down XEN elsewhere. This is possibly a reason why XEN keep wasting economy ships on that route since they never survive the journey through so space to get there and that is merely a ‘where AIs go to die’.

Emperors Pride IV/VI is almost always lost to PAR or on the oddest of occasions that PAR lose? ZYA step in and steamroll through those sectors. Presumably their invasion mechanic is choosing those as an easier choice than Rhys Defiance or Tharkas Cascade. This is the time at which Rhys Defiance and Tharkas usually smash into Family Zhin and scupper ZYA into unrecoverable mode, who then suffer the same effects as XEN with economy ships getting picked off as they are attempting to run their ships through 2 separate areas with a XEN holding in the middle just like FRF space. This leads to economy ships dying needlessly and painfully and the entire faction losing the western side unless Emperors Pride is already killed.



So we are left with, Tharkas Cascade and on occasion Rhys Defiance.

Rhys defiance is a challenge ONLY until ZYA either muster against Guiding Star OR take Emperors Pride to quell one side of the issues.

So we are down to Tharkas Cascade.. Lets just top off the entire XEN losses by providing an option of the plot (of which I always choose to keep Yaki alive and unlock that side) by killing off the entirety of XEN in Tharkas Cascade through the Savage Spur. That is basically the final nail in the coffin for XEN… completely.

We cannot bring them back, they barely have any economy to speak of otherwise and they are dead everywhere else.

Bye XEN, the only true real enemy in the game that says NO to everybody.

The galaxy, depending on plotlines is then in a routine of swapping sectors between the odd occasions where there is a war going on. HOP with their newfound sectors can hold, TEL don’t war with anyone properly. ARG don’t have any more sectors to contend with and seem to just waste ships by sending them the silly way to Guiding Star.

Until the trigger of Heretics End, at which point ARG inevitably take it since ZYA are just so damn weak that end and BOR take forever to get a claiming station up… that is one new war.

TER don’t branch fast or hard enough anywhere and are content sitting in their merry little safe zones.

It becomes a completely player led ‘war’.
IF, and I mean IF someone really wanted to unite the Paranid into TRI and force wars across the galaxy? That’s a fun way of providing yourself with a harder enemy.

The Changing of the guard:
XEN are constantly seen attempting to send ships from A to B sector for reinforcements (whether it be to fulfill defence quotas or invasion quotas or any other ship quota) which are lost on the way and then waste resources and time for them putting them on the backfoot. This is most noticable with K/I/miners/traders from Atiyas attempting to get to Tharkas Cascade/Emperors Pride but you can also see a fair few from 451/9 attempting to move to Tharkas Ravine Tharkas Fall.
It just smacks them in the face for the logic to produce ships elsewhere but have no real way of getting there. The odds of a XEN Destroyer / Battleship surviving long enough through multiple sectors are slim to none unless every defence fleet is dead (unheard of now) through real invasions.

The inevitable problem then comes down to this:
The NPC factions have no real challenge from XEN and this leaves the player with one small area to conquer before they are eradicated as so far I havn't seen ZYA broach the defences ever into Tharkas Cascade (and ARG will never attempt it due to the 1 sector range of invasions and it is a rarity for HAT to lose HC1 for ARG to retake it properly).

This is being spoken to from a complete vets point of view, I know almost all ins/outs and react rather quickly to things happening in the galaxy but the above is inevitable with, imo, the majority of the time with no player intervention at all. The only part that may fluctuate is Rhys Defiance in that they take Zhin and cause some issues with ZYA. The rest has happened in every game without fail, its just a matter of time. I don't actively help any faction in teh grand scheme, I never build ships for anyone and I merely fill in minor gaps for cash here. XEN are on the backfoot now, which is where all badguys should be, but not in such a short and easy way as to make them negligible. They are a scary faction to go up against in ships, but overall as a faction they are just weak on comparison now.


Please make XEN great again.

HOWTOFIX?

ye gods, i don't have a clue. If XEN had dedicated miners for each of their wharf/shipyards with a lesser radius of mining (so they don't suicide all the time) or a better way for them to get ships built in the places they need to be that may help? Its a cluster of knock on effects which is almost impossible to figure in such a living galaxy. But something needs to be done as the bad guys are no longer that 'bad'.

[Raptor34]

As you've suggested they can start with station owned miners. That'll be an easy change at least.

I've previously suggested missile armed Xenons for DEFENSE only. And maybe for the crisis or whatever but that's irrelevant for now. Low hanging fruit would be just to give them packs of fighters with missiles. Higher effort would be a new Xenon capital dedicated to missile barrages. Are Xenons actually having resource depletion issues? Iirc SPG itself looks kinda sparse, and the 2 neighboring sectors which looks rich, aren't owned by them in the beginning. If they aren't, this new Xenon capital can even be some kind of ghetto miner too. The idea would be they mine resources for themselves to replenish their missile supply, and since they can do that, why not let them mine for stations too? There aren't that many Xenons around, Egosoft can probably cludge together a heavier duty script for these rather than the simplified ones everyone else use.

Higher level than that, could as well bring back the Xenon M0s. It doesn't have to be replaceable, nor does it need to actually fit through the gate. Just have it be there to act like the final boss of the sector.

Another one would be Homeworld style mobile shipyards. But maybe they'll have mining drones and mining lasers attached. At worst it'll allow the Xenon to keep up production of S/M ships from a more defensible platform.

[vvvvvvvv]

There were multiple discussions of xenon on steam, I participated in those.

Some ideas I arrived at:

* Let H mine.
* Make a dock for H to dock with stations.
* Maybe add emergency rescue fleet when they're extinct.

Amusingly, on steam there's a mod that implements all of this:

https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/fil ... 3392664581

The dock, H as miners, etc. Would be great if eosoft looked into adaptin those tweaks into the game.

Other possibilities were:
* Let player revive xenon by delivering building materials through black marketers.
* Connect xenon sectors with gates
* Make "outer ring" sectors from where Xenons can keep comin, but that is hard to reach (similar to one way savage spur gate).

[moako]

Xenon are machines. They are not intuitive and they don't have power of imagination.

Therefore it make sense that the biological race has more variation of technology(ships, weapons, etc.)

The advantage of the machines are there 24/7 work and constant output. They need nothing. No food, no clothes, nothing at all but energy, silicon and ore.

Obviously the xenon should have much more Shipyards/wharf and attack in a much greater number.

Also the attack should be coordinated and mostly with a fleet. At the moment xenon attack uncoordinated and mostly they attack with small ships or with K,I Ships. But the small ships should be there to protect the K and I Xenon ships so that they can move and attack a station.

The Xenon are more powerfull as the TER because of there large number of ships.

In the war TER against BOR,ANT,ARG I thought the TER could have an issue but due to the TER Asgard the ANT/ARG and BOR lost one station after the other.
But this shouln't be the case because it isn't so difficult to kill an asgard with S and M-Ships especially if BOR/ANT/ARG would coordinate there attack or better mix their fleets with different ships and weapons.

Kill the xenon should only be possible if the fractions TER, BOR, ARG/ANT and PAR work together. That would be a nice feature for the diplomatic DLC/extension.
TEL are merchant and Split.... split are split.

[vvvvvvvv]

Xenon are machines. They are not intuitive and they don't have power of imagination.

Therefore it make sense that the biological race has more variation of technology(ships, weapons, etc.)

It can be spun the other way.

For example, one scenario I like is:
They're machines that has been self-evolving for 800 years while organics were twiddling thumbs or other appendages. Therefore it makes sense for xenon to be vastly superior to all tech including terrans, while at the same time possessing overwhelming power of impossibly large numbers. The reason why organics are still around is because they were not dealing with xenon, but with their old failed prototypes. The full force is lying in wait between the stars. Or perhaps moving slowly towards commonwealth.

In such configuration, however, the organic life is doomed, and this sort of scenario does not seem to align with egosoft's vision. Although if we talk about ascended xenon there's a matter of #efaa.

[jlehtone]

Its a cluster of knock on effects which is almost impossible to figure in such a living galaxy.

That is in the core of the "problem". Tiny nudges (by player) can swing the scale from one side to another. Likewise, devs could "change the balance" drastically.

We see new players lament the red in Hatikvah. We know that one can weather it and that it will not last. Buff a bit and beginners will fight for their lives in less than pleasant way.

Some players are annoyed, when a faction (VIG) that they did "wipe out" does keep placing plans for stations. Nothing is more annoying in "dynamic economy" than a "dead" faction that does not die. Well, the current Xenon are not annoying in that way. Infinite resupply of Xenon from "outer sector" would still be against the ethos of "we can shape the economy".

[Crimsonraziel]

In many many saves across the various galaxies I have noticed the following:

TEL without fail every single time smash through Scaleplate Green. [...]

HOP without fail every game have taken Faulty Logic and then its a cakewalk into Atiyas. [...]

Well, TEL almost always clears Scale Plate Green and Faulty Logic/Atiyas Misfortune is the most stable one in my games. Even after I terraformed the latter, once it's left to ANT, Xenon usually conquer it back. In my current game this corner containes 12 shipyards/wharfs. I had to built a death trap for them to save HOP. TER + ANT struggle to hold Frontier Edge but they haven't lost it yet.

Some players are annoyed, when a faction (VIG) that they did "wipe out" does keep placing plans for stations. Nothing is more annoying in "dynamic economy" than a "dead" faction that does not die. Well, the current Xenon are not annoying in that way. Infinite resupply of Xenon from "outer sector" would still be against the ethos of "we can shape the economy".

I think Boso Ta could solve that issue. Think of a repeatable research mission a long the lines of:

1. "I've detected some anomalous anomalies. I'd like to investigate this. Here are the locations. Pick one and deploy a probe. Those are all Xenon core sectors? What a coincidence!"
2. some extra hoops if desired
3. "Everything is prepared, please return. I will now conduct the experiment."
4. "Interesting, it seems to lead into a parallel universe. <insert Ventures reference> Something is comming through. Oh, Xenon! How unfortunate."

This could be a method to spawn in a massive fleet including miners filled to the brim and let them built wharf/shipyard immediately. A short boost to reestablish them in that sector. You can repeat this for the same location or one of the others to your liking.

Or you could go further. Now that the anomaly is open it permanently "supports" local Xenon. Maybe just increase job numbers, maybe initially spawn additional miners, resources or even fleets, maybe periodically spawn something. This could be repeated for all locations until all are open. Also add a research mission to close them down again. People could create Xenon hell to their liking and this wouldn't impact new players or people who prefer a more peaceful universe.

[moako]

Its a cluster of knock on effects which is almost impossible to figure in such a living galaxy.

That is in the core of the "problem". Tiny nudges (by player) can swing the scale from one side to another. Likewise, devs could "change the balance" drastically.

We see new players lament the red in Hatikvah. We know that one can weather it and that it will not last. Buff a bit and beginners will fight for their lives in less than pleasant way.

Some players are annoyed, when a faction (VIG) that they did "wipe out" does keep placing plans for stations. Nothing is more annoying in "dynamic economy" than a "dead" faction that does not die. Well, the current Xenon are not annoying in that way. Infinite resupply of Xenon from "outer sector" would still be against the ethos of "we can shape the economy".

Hatikvah is a special issue due to the highway circle. It is pretty important to have access to this circle because of the location of the HQ and delivery of goods.
If a trading station would work properly(a trading station in possession of player) it wouldn't really matter if the Hatikvah sector belongs to the Xenon. With a few good placed trading station also a beginner could do some work around and also earn good money.

If a faction as VIG or HAT are wiped out this factions should try to rebuild their station in unoccupied sectors.
It's a pitty that in X4 doesn't exist more pirate sectors. That would help for this matter.

Xenon have enough ressources. They lack of transporter ships and wharf/shipyards.

[adeine]

The biggest change with 7.5 and onwards that has led to significantly more rapid Xenon extinction is that ships correctly use range to bombard stations instead of suiciding into them. This means stations no longer have any defence of their own against capital ships, and a single ship can demolish a sector if there is no defending fleet present.

This affects other faction wars too (primarily pirates since they don't defend their stations with ships), but is especially bad for Xenon as they have the shortest range and no capital primary weapons of their own, so they cannot fight back on the same terms. They'll incur significant losses against defence stations and in skirmishes, whereas any other faction now only has to contend with ship vs ship attrition.

So while Xenon slowly died of starvation before 7.5 thanks to suiciding all their miners, their stations and shipyards usually survived and helped reduce fleet counts of enemy factions. Whereas now they can just be steamrolled as soon as they lose their fleets once or said fleets are distracted elsewhere.

[alt3rn1ty]

I think Boso Ta could solve that issue. Think of a repeatable research mission a long the lines of:

1. "I've detected some anomalous anomalies. I'd like to investigate this. Here are the locations. Pick one and deploy a probe. Those are all Xenon core sectors? What a coincidence!"
2. some extra hoops if desired
3. "Everything is prepared, please return. I will now conduct the experiment."
4. "Interesting, it seems to lead into a parallel universe. <insert Ventures reference> Something is comming through. Oh, Xenon! How unfortunate."

This could be a method to spawn in a massive fleet including miners filled to the brim and let them built wharf/shipyard immediately. A short boost to reestablish them in that sector. You can repeat this for the same location or one of the others to your liking.

Or you could go further. Now that the anomaly is open it permanently "supports" local Xenon. Maybe just increase job numbers, maybe initially spawn additional miners, resources or even fleets, maybe periodically spawn something. This could be repeated for all locations until all are open. Also add a research mission to close them down again. People could create Xenon hell to their liking and this wouldn't impact new players or people who prefer a more peaceful universe.

+1 - I think this idea would be a superb solution to Xenon extinction.

[vvvvvvvv]

+1 - I think this idea would be a superb solution to Xenon extinction.

"But, assistant! It occurred to me that we have performed this experiment before and it brings forth xenon fleet each time!

But perhaps, we should not lose hope! Science is unpredictable, and surely, we will, eventually arrive at a very different outcome!

Let us proceed with the experiment!"

[grapedog]

why are miners so often suiciding themselves?

usually xenon held sectors are pretty resource rich....

[flywlyx]

"But, assistant! It occurred to me that we have performed this experiment before and it brings forth xenon fleet each time!

But perhaps, we should not lose hope! Science is unpredictable, and surely, we will, eventually arrive at a very different outcome!

Let us proceed with the experiment!"

Adding a difficulty setting is one of the most common approaches to handling balancing issues like this. Honestly, the endgame crisis also feels dull, largely because its difficulty doesn’t scale or evolve over time.

There are hundreds of games that feature a property defense game mode, and I have to say, X4 offers one of the weakest implementations I’ve experienced. The same enemies repeatedly spawn right on top of my factories with no variation in strategy, no change in enemy composition, and no meaningful rewards. It feels like a very uninspired approach to endgame content.

[vvvvvvvv]

Adding a difficulty setting is one of the most

The quoted fragment is not about balance at all.

Instead of speaking about abstract "hundreds of games", it would be better to list specific examples and what they did better. That lists detailed pain points and actionable steps.

What do you want the game to do? What sort of thing would even challenge you, as a player? If you were playing X4 as an AI, how would you destroy a player such as yourself, while simultaneously giving a chance to people who picked the game recently.

Also keep in mind that adding challenge for seasoned players can make the game worse for everybody else. A good example of that are ED conflict zones with their hull sponges.

[flywlyx]

The quoted fragment is not about balance at all.

additional fleets for the Xenon directly increases their strength, which clearly alters the balance between factions.

Instead of speaking about abstract "hundreds of games", it would be better to list specific examples and what they did better. That lists detailed pain points and actionable steps.

What do you want the game to do? What sort of thing would even challenge you, as a player? If you were playing X4 as an AI, how would you destroy a player such as yourself, while simultaneously giving a chance to people who picked the game recently.

Also keep in mind that adding challenge for seasoned players can make the game worse for everybody else. A good example of that are ED conflict zones with their hull sponges.

The point is pretty clear

The same enemies repeatedly spawn right on top of my factories with no variation in strategy, no change in enemy composition, and no meaningful rewards. It feels like a very uninspired approach to endgame content.

If you can name a game that's as poorly executed as this, I'd genuinely like to hear it.

[vvvvvvvv]

If you can name a game that's as poorly executed as this, I'd genuinely like to hear it.

Why do you talk about hundreds of games with property management with confidence if you can't remember even ONE one game worse than x4? There a very large number of titles that are far worse or are just straight up dumpster fire. You'd naturally run into a several dozens of them naturally without doing anything at all. Even if we dismiss rpgmaker titles and specifically weird indie games.

From stuff I personally experienced:

Spoiler

Show

* X Plane 12
* Serious Sam First Encounter VR
* City Car Driving Home Edition
* Fallout 4 VR
* Skyrim VR
* Craftopia
* Space Engineers 1 with all its DLCs
* Project Zomboid
* Empyrion
* Agony
* Elite Dangerous and its DLCs.
* Prey 2017
* Fallout 4: Nuka Cola World
* Planet Explorers
* Ark: Survival Evolved
* StarForge

Then there's Universal Combat which I have not played at all but it is a fairly infamous bashing target.
Starborne and Star Citizen have quite a few disappointed players.

In Elite Dangerous there are 9 years old bugs. And to match level of jank in Craftopia Egosoft would require an extra team significant prolonged effort. Then we have unmatchable nuclear screwups in form of bethesda VR titles. And, of course, Empyrion and Starforge.

X4 is nowhere close any of them. It is very polished in fact.

The quoted fragment is not about balance at all.

additional fleets for

The quoted fragment was written by me, so I know what it was about, thanks.

I also do not subscribe to ideas of "balance", so kindly do not pull my comments into it. Balance is for multiplayer. This is a single player game.

[flywlyx]

From stuff I personally experienced:
...

Please stick to the topic—what I’m referring to is:

There are hundreds of games that feature a property defense game mode

From the list you provided, the 1st game I know that features a defense or survival mode like this is Serious Sam: The First Encounter.
It includes a difficulty setting, with enemies spawning more frequently as the difficulty ramps up.
Different enemy types appear at varying intervals to create tactical challenges, and weapons spawn between waves as rewards.
This is exactly what I described—and it’s from a game released back in 2009.

I also do not subscribe to ideas of "balance", so kindly do not pull my comments into it. Balance is for multiplayer. This is a single player game.

I am talking about the balance between factions:

additional fleets for the Xenon directly increases their strength, which clearly alters the balance between factions.

Factions are balanced against each other, just like weapons, ships, and engines. In single-player games, various aspects of the game are carefully balanced as part of the overall design.

[vvvvvvvv]

Please stick to the topic—what I’m referring to is:

You've asked specifically for the games that has been executed worse. You've been given the exact thing you requested. Good chunk of the titles on the list are much worse than X Rebirth used to be.

From the list you provided, the 1st game I know that features a defense or survival mode like this is Serious Sam: The First Encounter.

The game listed is a VR version, which in addition to the features you mentioned, used to display blindingly bright green square in your right eye if you're wearing specific headset, rendering it unplayable. One of the games in the croteam bundle had this issue. Note that serious sam VR is also lacking fleet management and station building entirely.