Practical differences in engine charateristics now

[X4Starter]

Played just a short bit on an old save with updated flight model. Learned very quickly my previous strategies for combat, ship handling, and practical understanding of physics within the game are completely irrelevant. Nothing feels even close (I consider myself a fairly decent pilot with the prior model and spent most of my time in the cockpit dog fighting and forcing ships to bail)

Now I have read that there is no intent to revert, and likely any changes going forward are likely to be minor. So with that I am looking for some information of general trends (ie DRIFT), and, especially, what the practical differences are between engine types from different factions. (it seems that there is NO instant travel drive option anymore)

Back more than a few years ago, I would have had a few hours at a time to figure such things out and optimize. Now the learning curve is back to square one and life doesn't provide the time.
In practical terms it means I put the game on the 'shelf' and haven't touched it since. I would like to consider trying it again and if someone has some general input on the changes I would appreciate it.

I will say that it has made my meta completely useless. And especially the M Class vessels I used in certain roles are now entirely unsuited. So again some general guidelines as to what the differences are would hasten my understanding, make the time I have to play more efficient to help determine if I will still enjoy the game.

At the very least it does seem a bit unrefined, and that the control scheme hasn't caught up to the new parameters that the update is trying to give us. Like trying to play a modern 3D title with a PS1 controller.

[CBJ]

Does this help at all?

Q: How does flying feel different?
A: While ship mass, thrusters, and engines have always dictated how ships handle, they now do so more naturally and with fewer sudden changes in acceleration. There are more pronounced differences between engine types, manufacturers, and models, too.

• Paranid: Fastest travel drives, and ships that fly almost like they are on rails, but much reduced manoeuvrability at high velocity.
• Terran: Quickest travel drive charge-up time, very fast travel drive acceleration. Their ships are generally easy to use.
• Split: Fastest regular engines, and just enough travel drive performance to intercept most targets. Their ill-controlled drifting is a challenge for rookie pilots though.
• Argon: Very aggressive boosting that can offset their poor travel drive acceleration. Their combat ships benefit a lot from improved thrusters.
• Teladi: Designed to outlast opponents in combat and haul efficiently at any distance.
• Boron: The weakness of their regular engines can be offset by considered use of boosting and their pre-charged travel drives.

[vvvvvvvv]

Played just a short bit on an old save with updated flight model.

CBJ's quote is very on point. In general it'll be

L Traders and L ships in general --> Terran engines (short countdown, high travel accel)
Personal S/M taxi --> Paranid Travel MK3
Personal S/M fighter --> Split Combat MK4, if you're comfrtable with drifting, and Paranid Combat Mk3 if you're not.

In my games I avoid Argon engines completely, because for me their boost focus doesn't click. Teladi engines would be all-rounder, I guess (they also IIRC have LONG boost, while Argon have STRONG boost).

Drifting ships require you to pay attention to velocity indicator and also allow you to circle-strafe without disabling flight assit. Example:
https://youtu.be/p5VUzH85N5c

[jlehtone]

Someone posted on Discord a list similar to the FAQ, but it had "humane" qualifications, like "easy for beginners".
Alas, I did not take a copy and "search" there is worse than on this Forum.

[Daemonjax]

Paranid engines are pretty balanced. They're the new argon engines.

Early game (before you can teleport 5 sectors away) you'll want a perseus vanguard with par travel drives to get around. After that, travel speed doesn't really matter.

Argon engines have the boost gimmick, so it's better than split mk4 engines in the player's hands.

Drift really simply comes down to speed -- the faster your ship can go, the more you drift. That's it. Don't over-think it. If you mod a ship to be faster, then it'll drift more.

Split engines are good for ships that you never intend pilot yourself and also never intend to have them use travel drive.

But that's really it. Nothing much has really changed. It's still the same game.

[vvvvvvvv]

If you mod a ship to be faster, then it'll drift more.

...

On related note, reducing mass and increasing strafe acceleration should cause the ship to drift less.

[Jeraal]

As someone who hates the new flight mechanic, can the numbers be tweaked some where to drastically reduce the drift? Please no get gud or adapt suggestions. I can fly the new way but I do not find it at all enjoyable.

[vvvvvvvv]

As someone who hates the new flight mechanic, can the numbers be tweaked some where to drastically reduce the drift? Please no get gud or adapt suggestions. I can fly the new way but I do not find it at all enjoyable.

You could try to make a mod.

Ship characteristics are defined within assets\units\size_<l/m/s/xl/xs>\macros

For base game this is within 01.<cat/dat>, but all dlcs have their own additions.

For every ship there's a macro, which defines its characteristics, like "ship_par_m_corvette_01_a_macro.xml". Within the macro, there's physics section, which indirectly defines limits.

For example:

Code: Select all

      <physics mass="24.394">
        <inertia pitch="3.214" yaw="3.214" roll="2.572" />
        <drag forward="3.547" reverse="14.188" horizontal="13.02" vertical="13.02" pitch="7.739" yaw="7.739" roll="7.739" />
      </physics>

Max speed is derived from drag and engine thrust, and acceleration is derived from mass and engine thrust. IIRC it is thrust divided by each coeffcient.

Engines are likewise defined within assets\props\Engines\macros, which is also split across multiple cat/dat if dlc has engines.

So... to try to "reverse" things, you'd have to go through every ship and engine and adjust coefficient by hand. X4 has something like 240 ships total, I think. Previous version of the data can be extracted from beta, BUT I'm sure the format changed and previously there were fewer coefficients.

It is time consuming, it will likely fail (because the way things work changed), and it will affect everything in the game. I wouldn't bother, but wouldn't stop you either, as long as the old model isn't forced into the game I play.

That's the rough idea of it.

And, of course, on steam you can revert to previous version...

[X4Starter]

This is very helpful.

How does it affect combat? As mentioned pirating by bailing was one of my favourite ways to play.
I have heard anecdotally it is more challenging given that boosting once shields are down is a thing, and boost recharge takes an exceptionally long time, making fighter engagements much more prolonged (which are already long anyway when you try to get a stubborn pilot to bail).

And how has this affected AI fighters vs stations and large ships? Has the AI been modified to compensate for the new movement mechanics?

[vvvvvvvv]

This is very helpful.

How does it affect combat? As mentioned pirating by bailing was one of my favourite ways to play.
I have heard anecdotally it is more challenging given that boosting once shields are down is a thing, and boost recharge takes an exceptionally long time, making fighter engagements much more prolonged (which are already long anyway when you try to get a stubborn pilot to bail).

And how has this affected AI fighters vs stations and large ships? Has the AI been modified to compensate for the new movement mechanics?

Combat after the update (IMO) is a lot more fun because ships no loner fly in perfectly straight lines and all movement in general feels more alive/organic. In generally you don't need boost THAT often and the best idea is to have faster engines. Keep in mind that you can chase enemies using travel drive, there's "match speed" hotkey, which also allows you to adjust speed RELATIVE to the enemy and it works in travel mode too.

Overall it is still fun and more fun than before. Grab Argon Quasar or moreya and watch them bail. Keep in mind that for fast bailing you'll want a ship with small amount of hullpoints...

[X4Starter]

What are the general differences in boost duration, recharge delay, recharge time, and travel time delay between the engine types and are these faction dependent?

[alt3rn1ty]

What are the general differences in boost duration, recharge delay, recharge time, and travel time delay between the engine types and are these faction dependent?

Boost attributes are ship dependant, it doesn't matter what faction is flying it.
Check out their stats in the in game encyclopedia, or (expand) the ship stats when building them.
There are in game mods which can improve Boost stats too ..

https://www.qsna.eu/x4/modifications

[vvvvvvvv]

What are the general differences in boost duration, recharge delay, recharge time, and travel time delay between the engine types and are these faction dependent?

Delays and durations are engine dependent and faction dependent. You'd nee to check them one by one. Encyclopedia pages have "time to max speed", IIRC.

Maximum speed and acceleration is ship AND engine dependent. Engine provides thrust, ship provides coefficient from which the values are derived. Number of engines matters as well. 5x engines means 5x thrust.

[SphinxofBlackQuartz]

I love the new flight model. It has definitely forced a shakeup in the ships and builds I use, but I think that's good; "What ship and engines do I use?" now feels much less like a "solved" problem. I ask what I want a ship to do, and how do I want it to handle, and that influences my choicse.

If you want something that feels like the old flight model, I find TER drives haven't changed much. They feel less "slidey" to me, but that may be partly because, as before, they just aren't as fast as most of the competition.

[X4Starter]

Okay experimenting with the Terran has definitely felt more familiar as these were my go to engines before. I have come up against some other issues/features:

When I travel drive in a direction and disengage, I no longer will 'coast' at that speed; my ship actively slows down, which makes overtaking enemy ships an issue unless using the match speed feature. I used to do this manually just by 'pulsing' my travel drive on combat engines (braking would engage as soon as I touched the throttle which was a very easy way to make quick adjustments).

Now, turning off flight assist causes my ship to stay in travel drive, maintain speed, and stop accelerating. So I guess this is the new alternative? (though maybe it always existed and I never had to use it). But then I can even turn my ship around and it will maintain speed, but I am still in travel drive, not 'coasting.' so in theory my travel drive should not be active and I should be passively coasting...

The issue is that it does not seem to allow for adjusting your speed on the fly (outside of match speed). My only options are maintain speed as above, increase speed at fixed travel acceleration, or disengage my travel drive and have my ship actively 'brake' and then reengage my travel drive, but oh, wait, Travel drive now takes 1 or more seconds to engage, meanwhile my prey has continued on their merry way. I can boost up to that speed, provided I have some left...

Writing this out I think I see why they did it: so that you can not have to disengage and reengage travel drive and wait so many seconds to take on a new direction, but it seems to me why not just leave the travel drive delay the way they were? I don't see what this solves, especially since the acceleration of many drives in travel drive is absolutely terrible, and to make any headway in a new direction requires disengaging your travel drive and boosting again for a few seconds... This just all seems rather clunky, and an afterthought/byproduct of trying to achieve some other goal.

At the very least, we should have finer control of speed in travel drive adjustable by the throttle. Likewise, 'coasting' after travel drive is off, and boosting with flight assist off should not be subject to engine 'braking' after it has been used. Then consider the ability to use 'boost' in travel drive to speed up the otherwise pitiful acceleration when trying to take a new direction.


My perspective is certainly limited, but it seems like we have chosen to be more 'realistic' in certain aspects of the flight model, while keeping other aspects similar to the old flight model or even less realistic with the controls, hence my post on the console controller.


Also I notice that my weapons no longer point true forward when boosting or in travel drive, as if they are aimed off to the sides, which again, makes knocking ships out of travel drive very difficult when trying to pirate them.

[vvvvvvvv]

Okay experimenting with the Terran has definitely felt more familiar as these were my go to engines before.

In my experience, drifting happens when ship moves too fast for side thrusters to correct a turn. The interesting thing, however, is that while forward thrust is dependent on engines, strafe thrust is dependent on thrusters installed. You can swap engines and strafe remains the same. Even though ENGINE mods affects STRAFE thrust which is apparently not governed by the engine. Making thruster output affected by engine mods could be either an oversight or deliberate design choice.

The practical result, however is that your ship goes too fast at some point you get a "death chariot" which can accelerate forward, but can't really turn, because turn requires strafe thruster correction, and thruster acceleration isn't high enough. Then you'd need to learn how to drift meaning correct course using your main engine.

Related: "Split circle strafe" https://youtu.be/p5VUzH85N5c

When I travel drive in a direction and disengage, I no longer will 'coast' at that speed; my ship actively slows down, which makes overtaking enemy ships an issue unless using the match speed feature. I used to do this manually just by 'pulsing' my travel drive on combat engines (braking would engage as soon as I touched the throttle which was a very easy way to make quick adjustments).

You can match speed in travel mode, and adjust desired relative speed with mouse wheel. You can also fire boosters outside of travel mode.

It would, of course, be great if you could finely control travel mode speed with FA or if you could fire travel drive without FA, or if boosters didn't set throttle to max, but it is what it is. Requests to address those moment were made, time will tell if egosoft acts on it.

Travel drive now takes 1 or more seconds to engage, meanwhile my prey

Boron engines (all of them) and Terran S/M travel engines have 0 seconds countdown. Travel drive, by the way, usually have a weak acceleration especially compared to boosters. So the tactic you should consider using is that you begin travel countdown and immediately boost. The ship can boost while travel drive is charging. When travel drive finishes countdown it will retain your current speed. Which is how you catch up with "prey", you begin countdown, boost so you reach desired speed when countdown ends. That's also what you're going to use in split combat engine when the enemy goes "wheee" and tries to boost/travelmode away from you. Split have longer countdown.

Additionally:

Writing this out I think I see why they did it: so that you can not have to disengage and reengage travel drive and wait so many seconds to take on a new direction,

Large ships have extra mechanism. If you terminate travel drive and immediately restart it, countdown will be shorter. It is in the engine stats somewhere, called something "travel mode restart/recharge". But in general, a reasonable idea is not to "wait", but fire the boosters to accelerate in new direction. Travel drive retains speed when it starts up.

I don't see what this solves, especially since the acceleration of many drives in travel drive is absolutely terrible,

It is terrible because you have boost which has better acceleration than travel drive. The system is actually quite clever, because previously you could just ignore boost completely because you didn't want to fly without shield, and it was okay. Now the configuration is setup in the way that the ship have learning curve, and for maximum effect you'd want to learn how to use it all together. Personally I like the system very much, because it does not feel like atmospheric flight, but like space. Split ships in particular hit that sweet spot where you combine benefits of FA-on and FA-off flight.

Your observation about lack of finer control in some places (throttle in travel mode) is valid, but I wouldn't call this clunky, it is fairly well thought out, but not obvious immediately. Just takes a bit more time to get used to. I'd also agree that forced slowdown after travel mode is turned off feels a tad more heavy-handed than necessary.

[zakaluka]

Personal S/M taxi --> Paranid Travel MK3

I have an exception to this choice. I did actual time trials on multi-jump routes to answer the question, "which drive is best for my personal scout". This route always started at the moment of undocking and ended at the moment I docked at the destination. (when the door opens)

Trying to figure out how to keep this short. (I actually wanted to find out if the teladi travel engine is still just bad - it has the highest acceleration, and oddly good boost now - well, it's still consistently unremarkable for this use)

What I discovered is that while the paranid drives had better top times, it's barely anything. On multi-jump routes it amounted to a few seconds. And, the terran drives have such better acceleration that they win on mechanics. It's easier to land efficiently with terran travel drives equipped - they have less than half the stopping distance.

If you just want your ship to feel less slidey, you lose almost nothing on travel time by switching from paranid to TER. If you tend to overshoot your target on first approach, you might even save time with a terran drive.

[vvvvvvvv]

Personal S/M taxi --> Paranid Travel MK3

I have an exception to this choice. I did actual time trials on multi-jump routes to answer the question, "which drive is best for my personal scout". This route always started at the moment of undocking and ended at the moment I docked at the destination. (when the door opens)

Trying to figure out how to keep this short. (I actually wanted to find out if the teladi travel engine is still just bad - it has the highest acceleration, and oddly good boost now - well, it's still consistently unremarkable for this use)

What I discovered is that while the paranid drives had better top times, it's barely anything. On multi-jump routes it amounted to a few seconds. And, the terran drives have such better acceleration that they win on mechanics. It's easier to land efficiently with terran travel drives equipped - they have less than half the stopping distance.

If you just want your ship to feel less slidey, you lose almost nothing on travel time by switching from paranid to TER. If you tend to overshoot your target on first approach, you might even save time with a terran drive.

I'm fine with ships being slidey. What I did notice is that Paranid in travel mode are quite difficult to steer. See, for example here:

https://youtu.be/5q2kG5IAQpI

https://youtu.be/JpoDwsnEs6w

Notice what happens to Moreya on a sharp turn.

And regarding multi-jump trips... I guess top speed will matter more if you're piloting it yourself, but then it won't be a "taxi". AI can absolutely restart travel drive during maneuvers, then it'll be more 2 second ticks.