Is there any hardware that would make the VIG fight good?

[LameFox]

Doing it for the nth time just got me wondering. This has the potential to be one of the best fights in the game but instead it's so, so bad. Probably the single biggest letdown in X4 because nowhere else can you even get a battle like this, but it feels like VIG as a faction was put in the game without anyone even considering whether it would work. I mean this isn't just a "you can do this" situation, like building an obscenely huge station. The game leads you into this fight. Egosoft designed a faction that consistently puts more ships in one place than anything else in the game, and a plot that brings you into conflict with it.

For reference I'm using a 10700KF and rx 6900xt, with 32GB of RAM. Not amazing but not terrible. A fair bit beyond what Egosoft considers "recommended". I can't even imagine how bad it must be at "minimum". Does the game switch from displaying FPS to SPF?

Is it even possible for this to run well? Like, hypothetically if I went out and built the best gaming pc I could with the parts kicking around today, would this play out smoothly? Or is the game itself not capable of handling it with the resources it will ever realistically use?

[Targ Collective]

I don't have an answer for you except to spend money on hardware upgrades if the computer's performance is the problem. X4 is a game which is on the higher bar of performance costs. I can't fix that, and the current patch is actually trying to do something about it, but the entire universe exists in your computer at once and performance is more difficult if everything exists whether you can see it or not.

I do have useful advice, however. There's an off-topic forum where people would be delighted to take any budget you have and theorycraft a decent gaming rig. I'm saving up significant resources for a prebuilt laptop called a Razer Blade 18 and it's an expensive machine. It's nowhere near as expensive as a car would be, but unless you're willing to spend on an upgrade then you'll have to work within what your computer can cope with.

if your budget is around £800-£1000 then your best value buy would be a Steam Deck or if you don't want SteamOS a Windows competitor. Dock, mouse, keyboard, monitor, and you can use it as a PC. You can also get a decent laptop within that range but a backup machine is a useful thing to have. The Deck will struggle to run X4 and will freeze and crash, based on my testing. I think it's a clock issue and maybe a suspend-resume issue, and it will also overheat, so don't think it will run everything. It *will* run most things!

If you want a powerful machine, it will cost significantly more. Without guidance on what you're willing to spend I can't give much advice. If you want the latest tech there's a price tag. But if you're within recommended settings range then the game should run right in most circumstances.

Complicated station geometries can cause massive performance drops if there's too many megastations in one sector. It could be that. Adapt your stationbuilding to what your computer can handle, because the game's collision checks around stations can become expensive.

I'm not sure on the portable-PC front how many Windows machines could run X4 and they'd struggle with it unless they are fast (and therefore more expensive). But the Off-Topic Forum is *made* for these discussions. They're a good crowd. They'd probably love to help you, and that's here - there are places all over the Internet where people will be overjoyed to talk tech specs and prices with you. I generally save up and simply get a new machine every so often to stay current, as usually they're easily good enough. But you can't beat handpicked components and carefully chosen prices, if you have the time and are prepared to do the research.

[LameFox]

. . . if the computer's performance is the problem.

Well, therein lies the essence of the thread. Is the computer's performance the problem? I don't actually know whether upgrading would fix it or not.

I've played games where coming back years later with an excessive machine is great for performance, and others where no matter what hardware you throw at it, there are performance issues that never go away. But which is this one? Has anyone out there already tried?

[Targ Collective]

You caught me between drafts.

Yes, the computer's performance is the problem. Or you wouldn't be complaining. The question is, is there some magic fix that can solve it?

Having the computer lock CPU and Graphics to full speed, and RAM optimisation software, will get some results. There's a comupter optimisation software tool called Avast which is useful for optimising processes, and I use Razer game optimisation software. Ultimately it's all based on calculation speed - how much CPU math and GPU math and RAM math the computer can do. You need the computer to do more math faster. That means faster math, less math or both.

Come on. Let's take this to Off Topic and see what the X4 crowd can do to help with that.

[Targ Collective]

Just done a Google search for "tool to lock CPU and GPU to max speed" and there's a ton of options! Pair that up with optimisation software and you'll get the best out of your machine. It'll drive your electricity bill up a bit, but only a change to more efficient hardware can help with that. Do another search on "tools to optimise PCs" and take a look at the options. You should choose your own tools, but Google makes researching this stuff so easy it's silly.

Nota Bene: It's obvious, but keep your GPU drivers up to date, and try and get a Bluetooth or equivalent port in any new machine if you can. We're at the dawn of the external GPU age, and an external GPU plug-in box is now completely possible.

Nota Bene: MSI Afterburner seems to be the most popular overclocking tool and it's completely free. Install might offer a subscription service but you can deselect it without affecting the software's performance. Please check your GPU and look for recommended settings online if you use it, as it seems to be able to overclock beyond hardware range. These are the dark arts of the optimisation monkey, the technomancer. Read the sacred scrolls so you may learn the Right Way.

I'm following through on this because I haven't done an optimisation run in a while and should do an update. I'll share any pitfalls I fond and will try to find free or donation driven software. i'll look into Ram in a bit.

[alt3rn1ty]

Had to go back about 15 pages on the X4 Foundations forum to find this ..
viewtopic.php?t=427248

All the best machines for the game being discussed in there.

Best upgrade as far as I have seen is Ryzen 5800x3d or 7800x3d CPU's with the large 128mb L3 cache (the more recent 7900x3d is not as good)
See this post by Scoob viewtopic.php?p=5199258#p5199258

Whatever you do dont go for an Intel 13 or 14 series CPU, in various places many people are discovering those chips have a bad (maths?) problem which makes X4 Foundations unplayable. I think you run a bit of a lottery as to whether you are getting one of the buggy chips.

Also any Ryzen x3d CPU's, if you want those in a Laptop, good luck, all the really good ones are out of stock because the world of gamers have snaffled all of them. The next x3d in a laptop I thinks is a Ryzen 9 9454x3d, when it comes out it will be around the £4000 price range (well, that is before Trump started meddling with the worlds economy). No idea if it will be as good as 7800x3d was. I have been having a good search around recently for my next Laptop .. No luck for something really good.

Been saying this for a few years now, but Egosoft are aspiring to a game that needs a quantum computer to run it decently. VIG sectors are just ridiculous, I just stay away from them all the time now, which as you say is a shame. When it comes to those battles best solution is to use a few Asgard (I used three last time), give them all beams with Slasher mod (+50% on damage) and make them into tank fly swatters .. Then send them in remotely with you in low attention (OOS).

[LameFox]

I have a vague memory of that thread... but, the thing is my issue is really just this one case of fighting VIG. My performance isn't always great and I'm sure a better rig could improve it generally, but outside of this very specific case, I don't mind it. So my curiosity is really, would anything make fighting VIG fleet-on-fleet run smoothly? Or is that just going to be bad on any hardware available today? Because frankly if it's the latter I wouldn't bother to upgrade for a few more years yet.

[Targ Collective]

Wise Memory Optimiser seems to be the most popular RAM optimiser. We're trying to be useful, and you'll get some results out of this. MSI afterburner seems pretty hardened from settings that will break things, but you should still look up the settings you can use - too much overclocking can lead to system instability and could even damage your hardware.

Put it this way. Just the right amount of coffee and you'll be alert and productive. Too little and you'll be sluggish. Too *much* and you'll burn out, even make yourself ill.

Therefore, graphics cards run on coffee. I mean, they need the right amount of coffee. Don't mess with the recommended settings unless you can *already* afford a new computer. Don't pour the coffee into your computer - it's just for the graphics card.

Overclocking *will* reduce the burn life of your machine but if you use the right settings the difference is negligible. Don't treat it like a free performance upgrade, and I'm serious about the coffee.

Damn it. now I want a coffee.

[alt3rn1ty]

~ Because frankly if it's the latter I wouldn't bother to upgrade for a few more years yet.

Thats about the sum of it. As I said Egosoft is aspiring to make us need a Quantum computer.
Save your money for a few more years

[alt3rn1ty]

Damn it. now I want a coffee.

Strong Maccu Pichu, thats what I'm doing next

[LameFox]

Thanks, and yeah I was afraid of that.

I almost said "disappointed but not surprised", but I think I am slightly surprised, or at least bewildered. I don't understand how they could design that faction/plot and apparently not stop to consider the actual gameplay it produces. Or worse, considered it but felt it was acceptable.

I guess I'll just brute force it while OOS (again), but it's just so disappointing.

[Targ Collective]

My recommendation if using MSI, and if you can't find settings for your rig,is to use an MSI tool called Kombuster to try and see what settings are okay. Don't go in blind and know these are tools with configurable ranges that will probably be out of hardware bounds. In practice the worst thing that will probably happen is that your GPU will protectively disable if you're silly, since overclocking became a thing GPU and CPU manufacturers have had to reconcile with their hardware tolerating it, but this is dark tech arts and should be treated with caution. Fhtagn.

[MKL81]

Doing it for the nth time just got me wondering. This has the potential to be one of the best fights in the game but instead it's so, so bad. Probably the single biggest letdown in X4 because nowhere else can you even get a battle like this, but it feels like VIG as a faction was put in the game without anyone even considering whether it would work. I mean this isn't just a "you can do this" situation, like building an obscenely huge station. The game leads you into this fight. Egosoft designed a faction that consistently puts more ships in one place than anything else in the game, and a plot that brings you into conflict with it.

For reference I'm using a 10700KF and rx 6900xt, with 32GB of RAM. Not amazing but not terrible. A fair bit beyond what Egosoft considers "recommended". I can't even imagine how bad it must be at "minimum". Does the game switch from displaying FPS to SPF?

Is it even possible for this to run well? Like, hypothetically if I went out and built the best gaming pc I could with the parts kicking around today, would this play out smoothly? Or is the game itself not capable of handling it with the resources it will ever realistically use?

I have 4070 TI Super and 7800X3D and fights with VIG in Windfall can take my PC to single digit FPS at rare moments. I don't think there is a PC spec that can get X4 battles to run at smooth framerates. I have seen so much talk about game being simply demanding because "muh calculations in the background"", but in all honesty I think this is game engine issue. That's it.

[Raptor34]

Putting aside the fight itself, someone tested it and just adding the DLC gave a substantial performance drop.
So I'll say they considered it acceptable.

[alt3rn1ty]

Honestly the only thing I keep the VIG DLC installed for is the Erlking.
You can get it in a Custom Budgetted game if you dont fancy doing the trail again to get the turrets etcetera.

[Buzz2005]

for cpu performance tinkering I would recommend Process Lasso, debloating windows is always good
we should start a new thread with a vanilla save about to go fight with VIG, and do performance reports

if somebody with 9800x3d and some strong GPU and fast ram could say how VIG fighting goes would be interesting, imo I think the specs I wrote are the best currently for x4

[alt3rn1ty]

Also reference Intel 13th and 14th gen CPU's, here's a post by CBJ mentioning the problem ..
viewtopic.php?t=470537

[Retrox]

Honestly the only thing I keep the VIG DLC installed for is the Erlking.
You can get it in a Custom Budgetted game if you dont fancy doing the trail again to get the turrets etcetera.

Mods can help. Some days ago, with some help of experienced modders i slapped a minimod together, that just reduces the number of VIG ships (its changeable to your liking btw).
viewtopic.php?t=470308

That way the reduction of fps is not so high.

[alt3rn1ty]

Honestly the only thing I keep the VIG DLC installed for is the Erlking.
You can get it in a Custom Budgetted game if you dont fancy doing the trail again to get the turrets etcetera.

Mods can help. Some days ago, with some help of experienced modders i slapped a minimod together, that just reduces the number of VIG ships (its changeable to your liking btw).
viewtopic.php?t=470308

That way the reduction of fps is not so high.

Thanks, I'll keep it in mind for one day when I am not beta testing X4 or waiting for Ventures to reappear.

[Targ Collective]

*smiles* I'm running Vanilla too, for the present, but you get to choose. It's completely possible to have mods-no mods savefiles, or even back your saves up if you run more configurations than ten saves can keep up with. Obviously it's not for betatesting or Ventures, and locks out cheevos, and marks you Modified. But these are not the only benefits. If Vanilla starts to get stale or plain, then mods will breathe new life into X4 to make it new and fun again.

The Devteam are obviously aware of this, and actively support the modding community. And they should. If mods were to extend the game's life by five to ten years and some players purchase DLC made by Egosoft to complement that, then that's money in their pockets, and that's before we talk about the more subjective but still valid section of the community that will purchase the game and quite possibly DLC just to play it with mods.

i guess what I'm saying is that Vanilla is a totally valid gameplay choice that supports the Devteam, but don't think it's vanilla vs. mods or mods vs. vanilla. You'll have a lot more fun playing both sides - unless of course you're hunting Cheevos, still enjoying Vanilla or betatesting.