Values devaluation or why they keep doing it

[Andrey12y]

Hey guys, I'd like to share my concerns about the game and see if others share my opinion. It would also be nice to know the developers' position on this. Or at least to know that the developers have taken a look.
I got into the game around 2000, and although I didn't play X-Tension much, it was enough to make me love the series for years to come. Regarding my style - I'm not a fan of large-scale building or commanding fleets, just love being in my fighter, struggling for survive, weak and alone in endless space and all that pathetic stuff) In fact, one of the major things about this game is that one can afford it. Well, you know, you're free, you can fly anything and have fun. But is this really true?
I think we need to look back to answer this question. I hope you'll forgive me for this wall of text, because otherwise I won't be able to explain. Of course, you can skip the explanation and just read the title and the first paragraph to get an idea of ​​what I'm trying to say.

X2 had a very good balance in my opinion. You could enjoy all classes of battle ships, gradually moving from M5 scouts to M4 interceptors, then to M3 fighters and then to M6 corvettes. Yes, it was a bit artificial. You had missions and you had a combat rating, which increased the difficulty of the missions. At the same time, you could always get into trouble by attacking enemies that were too strong. And of course you could buy a destroyer if nothing else interests you. But there was a time and opportunity for everything. And that generated a gameplay time. Basically, this is what you pay for, when you buying a game or DLC. And I think this is a particularly important understanding for the sandbox game concept.

Then came the X3. The change of shield/hull concept and PBE-armed Xenons rendered the whole M4 class almost unplayable (removed gameplay time, in other words). It even hurt the M3 class. Indeed, when you encounter more than 3-4 Xenons, all you can do is run away, launching missiles into the front hemisphere. You can then turn around and attack, then run away again, patch up your damaged hull, recharge your shield, and attack again. Yes, it was thrilling and it was fun. And at least you are able to do this, because you can escape.... Or you can just skip to Corvettes right away. A little joke from the X3TC days: - which fighter is the best?; - Springblossom...

What happened in X4? AI has no problems with hitting from boost or traveling mode. I know, being swarmed is never a good idea, but you can't escape anymore. Your ship is doing a thousand meters per second, It won't help. They catching up, knocking you off travel mode and gradually destroy you. I have adapted somehow - run away, drop mines and laser turrets. M's/N's can be one-shootted on a counter course with blast mortars. Trying to use something else is not very effective. They bust away, making incredible maneuvers. At least they were wasting their shield… until now. Overall, I can say that I didn't enjoy fighter combat in X4 as much as I used to. Even corvettes no longer give a sense of security.
Now there's a new flight model. I started a new game, tried the scout vs scout combat and didn't like it. Then I played a little bit of Timelines and it was a terrible experience. The enemies are boosting away, I'm trying to catch up, but can't handle the crazy inertia, at the same time they of course have no problem putting holes in my ship and focusing me like crazy. So, blast mortars again, now for sure, because with others it's even more difficult now? I don't know. And I don't like it.

I feel pushed to a bigger ship class, with every new game in series. Flying in a small fighter is not fun anymore. Spending time to find various equipment is gone, because everything is available everywhere. And what's left? A docking computer and a scanner? What's the point of a cargo bay size? No shields and arms to carry in, no cells for jumps. Okay, I've come to terms with it. The size of the cargo bay doesn't matter. I can no longer buy Fight Command Software or Lifesupport system at pirate base to bypass reputation restrictions. It's not essential for immersion, okay. Docking clumps and no cockpits once was a shock to me and now I love X3. But can I still be here in my fighter in X4, can I enjoy the game again? Should I wait until someone makes a detailed guide on controlling the ship? Should I buy a joystick? Should I meticulously study different combinations of engines and thrusters? Maybe I'm just so used to X3 that I'm simply not able to play X4 effectively?

After all, do I have like-minded players, or is my problem imaginary and everything is fine in reality? How others dealing with this, what do they think?

[stooper88]

Although I don't quite feel that the X series has lost its value, I feel compelled to respond that I do empathize with the OP. My time in X3 was dominated by flying M4, M3, and M3+ ships... almost exclusively in fact. Although station and fleet building were always "interesting" game mechanics that I planned to explore at some point, I was hopelessly drawn to dogfighting in small fighters, from the starting Buster to my first PNR to the beloved LX. I was hooked on testing my mettle against pirate, xenon, and kha'ak squadrons. Nothing was more glorious than "bailing" and claiming their ships and I never grew tired of the encounters (as can be evidenced by my profile picture and signature).

However, with X4, I can definitely concur that "S" ships don't have any of the same allure. Flying in a lone S ship is often a futile and fruitless endeavor and even flying with a wing of escorts doesn't compensate for the lost viability. I still enjoy X4 for its other aspects but do have times of nostalgia for the intense but feasible "lone wolf" gameplay of earlier X games.

[adeine]

It's not imaginary. I wish there was more of an early game/sense of progression in X4.

Like you, I felt the balance in X2 was pretty good, with each phase of gameplay (from small fighter to empire building) being meaningful, distinct and adding to the variety and longevity of savegames. It was like having a number of different games in one, which I consider to be one of the strengths of the series. In X3, progression was a lot faster but still more relevant than in X4. Upgrading ships is essentially all but vestigial (software especially) and S ships are largely irrelevant as you can, and usually should, skip straight to M ships and destroyers. Which you get given for free at the first opportunity. Even with station building, you're thrust into empire building straight away with the HQ and so forth so that is pretty much the entire focus of the game. It's fun, definitely more fleshed out than prior titles, but I do wish we had some of the variety in gameplay that sadly seems more of an afterthought here (case in point: the state of guild and generic missions). The only real thing to 'save up for' is terraforming, and that is just a vanity project.

I understand that the game caters to an audience where having the time for an X/X2 style progression curve might be an issue, and from what I've gathered Egosoft are wary to 'lock' any features of the game behind a time/effort investment. I just think it would have been better to offer advanced game starts for those who need/want them, while maintaining/bringing back some sort of early and mid game reminiscent of the earlier games for those who enjoy it.

[Raptor34]

Could you ever take on an M2 with an M3? Because you sure can do it now.

[vvvvvvvv]

What happened in X4? AI has no problems with hitting from boost or traveling mode. I know, being swarmed is never a good idea, but you can't escape anymore. Your ship is doing a thousand meters per second, It won't help. They catching up, knocking you off travel mode and gradually destroy you. I have adapted somehow - run away, drop mines and laser turrets. M's/N's can be one-shootted on a counter course with blast mortars.

Try:
Chimera, Moreya, XPerimental. Also try shipmods. M's and N's are only threat to slow early ships.

The rest of your argument that is built on this point does not hold. There are slow and weak ships, ones that you will likely exchange for something else. For example, at some point I did a fresh start in a Shih, with mk1 equipment. That was, obviously, quite tough.

Regarding loadouts, sure, things got a bit too streamlined, but exclusive weapons exist. I.e. blast Mortars are available only from one faction, ion blasters are available only from one faction, and so on. Terran shields available only from terrans, etc. About internals, maybe bringing it back could make sense, maybe not. It's been ages since I played x3 so at this point I don't even remember how it used to work. What you describe does remind me of elite dangerous, though.

[TheDeliveryMan]

My favorite ships are the Xperimental Shuttle and the Geometric Owl (Moreya). I am pretty sure my personal ship will always be a fast S ship.

[PersonyPerson]

What happened in X4? AI has no problems with hitting from boost or traveling mode. I know, being swarmed is never a good idea, but you can't escape anymore.

I'm sorry, but I disagree strongly with this point. For me, with the latest flight model rework, there has never been an easier time in X4 (or in the rest of the X-series for that matter) to escape from a battle, even in XL class capital ships.

I transitioned from X3 to X4 and initially struggled with the nuances of flight movement. I believe you're just lacking experience with X4's flight mechanics and that you'll get more used to them with time like I did. The 7.50 changes add a bit of difficulty to normal movement, but that's counter-acted by improvements to boost. You can easily chase down targets after they've boosted away and give them no breathing room to react and shoot you back.

I will say though, it is really annoying to fly many M class civilian ships, especially with full cargo holds. The Plutus is the worst I've experienced so far. Taking ~200km to brake and stop after reaching full travel drive speed with a full cargo hold. Combat ships are not that bad.

[Andrey12y]

I am grateful for the answers and accept them as they are. My goal is to voice what worries me and hear different opinions, maybe find a solution for myself. Nevertheless, I need to clarify my experience. I have been playing X4 since release and have 3350 hours in the game (for some time the game was running in the background, but still). I tried different ships and configurations. I really tried to figure it out and get the fun back. In short, I am not one of those who will write an outrageous review after a few hours. And if I quickly got used to and loved X3 after X2, in the case of X4 it has already been 6 years since the release and I still feel that something is wrong.

I want to answer one direct question. In X3TC, it happened that a Khaak M2 appeared in a sector and destroyed everything with impunity. It was a whole operation - to distract its turrets and slip into the blind zone. Then you had to hold it there while you slowly destroyed it. Same with Xenon capital ships (especially authentic ones with anti-fighter weapons). It was challenging and rewarding experience. In X4 it became routine.

[LameFox]

I wouldn't say I feel pushed to spend time in any particular ship size. They're all viable in combat—perhaps ridiculously so in some cases, I mean the player in an S ship can neuter the strongest capitals—and in terms of upgrades, it's really the same system from the smallest to largest. Some have fewer equipment options (Boron, Frontier ships, Erlking and so on) but none have a lot. The bulk of it is made up of tiered gear that's just cheaper but worse. I guess if you're looking for an RPG type of game, with a lot of side-grades and gear choice that lets you spend ages in one ship, X4 has moved further away from that. It feels more like one of those RTS/FPS hybrids now where you're controlling an army and occasionally pop into one unit to drive it around. Spending all my time in any one ship, be it tiny or massive, would drive me up the wall with boredom.

[jlehtone]

Could you ever take on an M2 with an M3? Because you sure can do it now.

Which game do you ask about?
X2: M4 Bayamon with PSG, M3 Nova with IonD and HEPT ... both could kill M2 Xenon K.
X3R enabled M5 to kill M3s and M6s (as even "lesser gun" DPS was better than shield recharge -- unlike in X2),
and M3/M2 ratio did not change worse (for the M3).

Btw, X3R Xenon did not have PBE; they did appear with X3TC.


Earlier X4 Xenon did not travel to catch you. That is behaviour relatively recent. While "annoying", it does give the Xenon a slight chance against the God Warrior.

[vvvvvvvv]

I want to answer one direct question. In X3TC, it happened that a Khaak M2 appeared in a sector and destroyed everything with impunity. It was a whole operation - to distract its turrets and slip into the blind zone. Then you had to hold it there while you slowly destroyed it. Same with Xenon capital ships (especially authentic ones with anti-fighter weapons). It was challenging and rewarding experience. In X4 it became routine.

In x4 you have similar experience when you've built your first battery cell station, and then a Xenon I leisurly emerges out of the gate and heads into your direction. Unfortunately, at some point you'll come up with very efficient tactics and threat will greatly diminish as a result. I.e., at the beginning, when you just started playing, that's a horror movie scenario, and probably loss of station. But then you'll figure out how to fight it with an asgard or erlking. Then with any destroyer. Then you'll learn that you can disable it in an M ship. And at the end you'll effortlessly blow up its engines in an S ship and then either let NPCs finish it off, or bring in some heavy hitter. The threat will diminish and not much can be done about it, I think. Humans learn, in time.

[Andrey12y]

I guess if you're looking for an RPG type of game, with a lot of side-grades and gear choice that lets you spend ages in one ship, X4 has moved further away from that. It feels more like one of those RTS/FPS hybrids now where you're controlling an army and occasionally pop into one unit to drive it around. Spending all my time in any one ship, be it tiny or massive, would drive me up the wall with boredom.

I'm not about sticking to one ship forever, in fact I would be happy to have all variety of ships equally good to be a "Player ship". It's the game conditions which force me to pick up one, to be a major Player ship. In X3 a lot of fighters are useless, but abusing a hidden overtuning crates mechanics I did seweral ship-dedicated playtrouhgs (Falcon Sentinel, Blastcalw, LX, Medusa). Overtuning just up to 220ish m/s was enough to ensure a comfortable and fun but still challenging game. But in X4 none of fighters are good to be that Player ship, some of them simply just not as bad as others. And being capable of doing 1000 m/s doesn't really change much. I usualy started over with each new DLC and did copmleted playtrough (exept terraforming) only once, in ToA. And I definitely didn't use the fighters as much as I used to and it definitely wasn't as much fun. Yes, I've destroyed Xenons, used blockades, fleets, etc. It was fun, but I don't want to do it again.

Btw, X3R Xenon did not have PBE; they did appear with X3TC.
Earlier X4 Xenon did not travel to catch you. That is behaviour relatively recent. While "annoying", it does give the Xenon a slight chance against the God Warrior.

Yes, you're right. I generalized. To be more precise, in X3R the window of opportunity for M4 has significantly shrunk, in X3TC it has shrunk even more.
I am coming from my experience of ToA playtrough, it was in 2023. And I wasn't at all like a God Warrior, it was a mess, I didn't feel in control of the situation and my performance was not satisfactory to me. With the new flight model it's even worse - I feel helpless and my performance is just disgusting.

... Humans learn, in time.

I understand, but these are slightly different things. Before, you sat in a blind spot and spent a long time destroying an enemy who still was a deadly threat all the time. It's routine now. You turn the deadliest ship into a defenseless pile of metal and may even call in your miners, hoping for an extra dice roll to gain a level-up in piloting or morale.

[jlehtone]

I am coming from my experience of ToA playtrough, it was in 2023. And I wasn't at all like a God Warrior, it was a mess, I didn't feel in control of the situation and my performance was not satisfactory to me. With the new flight model it's even worse - I feel helpless and my performance is just disgusting.

...

I understand, but these are slightly different things. Before, you sat in a blind spot and spent a long time destroying an enemy who still was a deadly threat all the time. It's routine now.

Now I'm baffled. You seem to say that it is "routine to sit in blind spot and kill", but also that you cannot do that? Must be different contexts.


---

In X2 the M5 -> M4 -> M3 had a "scheme". The M5, a "scout", was fast but not enough DPS. One could explore and get M4 with it.
The M4, "interceptor", was slower but with enough DPS to do many things. The M3 "fighter" was then the "heavy" -- slower than M4.

X3R did give M5 more DPS, which did drop the usefulness of M4. Getting M4 was no longer necessary to get into the "big boys" from the M5.

The X4 has new labels for the small fighting craft: Scout, Fighter, and Heavy Fighter.
The "interceptor" is no more as a class -- some ships suite to that role better than others.
Ships have speed, agility, shields, and dps (and some clearly less than others).

Yes, current X4 (and also original X4) do fly differently to the X3 (and earlier).

---

In x4 you have similar experience when you've built your first battery cell station, and then a Xenon I leisurly emerges out of the gate and heads into your direction. Unfortunately, at some point you'll come up with very efficient tactics and threat will greatly diminish as a result. I.e., at the beginning, when you just started playing, that's a horror movie scenario, and probably loss of station. But then you'll figure out how to fight it with an asgard or erlking. Then with any destroyer. Then you'll learn that you can disable it in an M ship. And at the end you'll effortlessly blow up its engines in an S ship and then either let NPCs finish it off, or bring in some heavy hitter.

Oh my, I've "done it all wrong". I started killing Ks with Corvette and Scout. As that was tedious, I shifted to Destroyer, and finally to boring Battleship. Only after amassing Doom Fleets did I build a station, and eventually a battery cell station too. I never wanted to risk any stations to shady characters (in or next to a tank).

[vvvvvvvv]

Oh my, I've "done it all wrong". I started killing Ks with Corvette and Scout. As that was tedious, I shifted to Destroyer, and finally to boring Battleship. Only after amassing Doom Fleets did I build a station, and eventually a battery cell station too. I never wanted to risk any stations to shady characters (in or next to a tank).

That's kinda not the most likely path I'd expect a player to take. Basically for non-combat oriented pilot I'd expect person to get traders then first station and maybe then build empirs without a single destroyer. Then the player might decide that Getsu Fune is a good place for scrap processor then an I will say hi.

Taking on a capital in a small ship is sort of expected to be risky, and if you fail to dodge gravitons they can one shot. Now, if the player had experience with Rebirth, that would be a very different story.

[jlehtone]

That's kinda not the most likely path I'd expect a player to take.

Sounds plausible. I was "a new player" two decades ago, so my path has had time to diverge.
Yet, Rebirth is a thing still on the "ToDo" list.

As for "non-combat oriented" ... the issues in OP are clearly not for them, are they?

[vvvvvvvv]

Yet, Rebirth is a thing still on the "ToDo" list.

This game is ridiculously hard to get into, and violently resists attempts to enjoy it. I only managed to get into it because of VR. You'll probably need mods.

For example... "call crew in space", "show_me_your_silence_please", "HS_InitiateSmalltalk", "infiniteboost", "NoHighwayMusic" and maybe "ship bridges"

Boarding is very well done in it, though.

As for "non-combat oriented" ... the issues in OP are clearly not for them, are they?

I would say they overlap, because non-combat player might be bored feeling too safe, and can still build defenses and fleets. It is just they'll be AI-driven.

[vkolosov]

Never played previous series, but I spend a good chunk of my time in X4 in S and M ships. Dogfighting is one of my favorite activities.

Yes, you indeed can get swarmed. But I like the sense of danger that comes from it. You take risks, and these risks are real. And something makes sense about one lone fighter having a hard time fending off 10+ enemy ships.

As for getting away — never had a problem with it. But I mostly fly fast ships, and use Terran or Split engines. If they keep following you and boosting and shooting, not flying in a straight line really helps to avoid fire. But yes, you need that speed advantage in order to employ any sort of hit and run tactic. Which again, makes total sense.

[Andrey12y]

Apparently the concerns expressed isn't that big of a deal for most players, which probably means the developers don't have to worry about it either.
And since I can't exactly isolate and actualize the problem, except to say that I don't like something, and even less - offer some solutions that are more specific than just my guesses - I can only thank you for your opinions and express my hope that the developers, while improving the game and moving forward, will not lose one of its most fundamental features, that has provided them with fans for 25 years.

p.s.

X3R did give M5 more DPS, which did drop the usefulness of M4.

In X3 you can neutralize (or even eliminate) assembled Khaak cluster with a freakin' Octopus, how about that)) A wonderfull synergy of a "think" and "fight" aspects of the game. But this doesnt mean M5 any good for fighting nor make them a substitute for M4. But those things are for another section of the forums. I used references to previous games just as a basis for comparison and tried to achieve something of a dialectical approach.

[grapedog]

Way back when X4 was released I remember being in a Nemesis and trying to help defend the Teladi trade station Hewa's Twin I from just waves and waves of Xenon... and i feel like now, that trade station is never in danger. I used to help the teladi by building a defense station in that area... but it just isn't needed anymore. I'm not needed....

I know much more about the game now, but I kind of miss the progress of starting in your scout, moving to a fighter, to a corvette, maybe a couple corvettes or frigates... maybe start building a basic station while working on capturing some L miners or freighters, working towards getting that first destroyer. Even without using cheesy methods, there are so many free ships laying around or given away...

And the Xenon are not really a threat any more.... I could build or fight nothing, and no one would be really worried, except ZYA because they're always terrible.

There is something missing for sure from the vanilla experience.