I'd like an LX "battle ship" DLC

[stooper88]

As for the other thread, I don't have any particular horse in that race, nor do I feel it necessary for every race to possess their own Bismarck.

But I do have to admit all the "Hype" fever is giving me X3 sentimentality and I'm now reminiscing over the countless hours flying my beloved LX. So if ES will be pulling names from a hat to decide what ships to offer in upcoming releases, then I'd like to nominate that other legend from the "Bala-Gi" update, the Xenon LX. And yes, of course, it needs to be player pilotable (and mass producible).

Regarding details, I confess I'm not sure how it would fit given that the existing Eclipse and Chimera are classified as S ships whereas they were originally M3+ similar to the LX. I somewhat doubt making the LX into another S ship would do its legacy justice. So just as the Hyperion is being promoted from M7 to L, I think it'd be fair to have an M variant of the LX but with the agility of an S ship.

At least I can always dream...

P.S. of course the Xenon would also get the LX too. Yeah, maybe that could cause things to get hairy. But just like the old days, if you want an LX, you have to capture one yourself. No free lunch.

[chew-ie]

Sounds great - would also solve the problem with the missing S-turrets in X4.

I can already see the LX-2, sitting on a M landing pad. Just like X3 made it, only scaled up

[LameFox]

I do like those old terraformer Xenon ships, but I have to protest making it into an M ship on the grounds that M shields are garbage.

[Raptor34]

I wouldn't mind seeing the return of the M3+ class. But considering how M turrets are, what would S turrets be like?
Maybe something more utility focused would be better, or maybe M3+ can have integrated missile launchers.
Though now that I think about it further, utility S turrets could mean something fast, long ranged, but low damage. It's purpose would be to intercept missiles and also to keep enemy shields from recharging. Basically it would function like a long range beam turret, though I'll prefer it to not actually be a beam. And of course if you field enough of these ships, they would both easily work as a missile shield for other ships, and probably kill S ships easily, just like how enough L beam turrets on an Asgard and they become really good.

[LameFox]

That's probably why there aren't S turrets. The entire concept of a turret was nerfed so hard, they'd be like spacesuit sidearms now.

There's definitely room for Xenon to use missiles on something, though, if the resupply issue was suitably addressed.

[stooper88]

I do like those old terraformer Xenon ships, but I have to protest making it into an M ship on the grounds that M shields are garbage.

Not necessarily arguing, but could you elaborate on what's wrong with M shields? Do you mean they are overpowered or underpowered or something else? Personally, I think X4 corvettes like the Nemesis Vanguard have massively better survivability than typical S ships while maintaining decent maneuverability. So I'd argue the M class and corresponding M shields would provide an advantage over the S class. On the other hand, I do think that X4 frigates far underperform in contrast to the original M6 ships in earlier games. So I'd agree M shields are poor in comparison to their original pedigree. Unfortunately, this is an outcome of the simplification of ship classifications from 8-9 to 3 (with respect to military ships).

I wouldn't mind seeing the return of the M3+ class. But considering how M turrets are, what would S turrets be like?
Maybe something more utility focused would be better, or maybe M3+ can have integrated missile launchers.
Though now that I think about it further, utility S turrets could mean something fast, long ranged, but low damage. It's purpose would be to intercept missiles and also to keep enemy shields from recharging. Basically it would function like a long range beam turret, though I'll prefer it to not actually be a beam. And of course if you field enough of these ships, they would both easily work as a missile shield for other ships, and probably kill S ships easily, just like how enough L beam turrets on an Asgard and they become really good.

I could be wrong, but I think chew-ie's reply was suggesting that an M variant of the LX would avoid the issue of X4 having no S turrets, rather than proposing that ES introduce S turrets into the game. In other words, producing the LX as an M ship would allow it to retain its turrets and preserve its original glory without requiring any dramatic changes to the game mechanics and turret classifications.

That said, it does seem that the existing M ships and M turrets leave a lot to be desired for some players. I think that's somewhat orthogonal to the topic though as those shortcomings pre-exist any reintroduction of the LX. I will say that I did, in fact, strictly utilize the LX turrets for missile defense, so the proposed "utility turret" concept would be totally in line with how I played.

There's definitely room for Xenon to use missiles on something, though, if the resupply issue was suitably addressed.

And since you mention it, the other tactic I remember enjoying was equipping "mosquito missile defense" anti-missile missiles. This wasn't unique to the LX and I doubt such a feature would ever make a come back, but how nice would it be?

[Falcrack]

Sounds great - would also solve the problem with the missing S-turrets in X4.

I can already see the LX-2, sitting on a M landing pad. Just like X3 made it, only scaled up

The Star Wars Interworlds mod has S sized turrets for some fighters, so it is doable.

[chew-ie]

Sounds great - would also solve the problem with the missing S-turrets in X4.

I can already see the LX-2, sitting on a M landing pad. Just like X3 made it, only scaled up

The Star Wars Interworlds mod has S sized turrets for some fighters, so it is doable.

It's not so much the Star Wars Interworld mod - there is a mod framework for S turrets out there. Thus I know it is possible - but there seems to be a distinct reason why Egosoft decided to leave the whole S class without turrets (in contrast to all previous games after X:Btf - X² and X³ had turrets on small ships).

[Raptor34]

I wouldn't mind seeing the return of the M3+ class. But considering how M turrets are, what would S turrets be like?
Maybe something more utility focused would be better, or maybe M3+ can have integrated missile launchers.
Though now that I think about it further, utility S turrets could mean something fast, long ranged, but low damage. It's purpose would be to intercept missiles and also to keep enemy shields from recharging. Basically it would function like a long range beam turret, though I'll prefer it to not actually be a beam. And of course if you field enough of these ships, they would both easily work as a missile shield for other ships, and probably kill S ships easily, just like how enough L beam turrets on an Asgard and they become really good.

I could be wrong, but I think chew-ie's reply was suggesting that an M variant of the LX would avoid the issue of X4 having no S turrets, rather than proposing that ES introduce S turrets into the game. In other words, producing the LX as an M ship would allow it to retain its turrets and preserve its original glory without requiring any dramatic changes to the game mechanics and turret classifications.

That said, it does seem that the existing M ships and M turrets leave a lot to be desired for some players. I think that's somewhat orthogonal to the topic though as those shortcomings pre-exist any reintroduction of the LX. I will say that I did, in fact, strictly utilize the LX turrets for missile defense, so the proposed "utility turret" concept would be totally in line with how I played.

But well, aren't M turrets kinda big? Let's pretend it's buffed to usefulness whatever that means, sticking an M turret on it makes it feel much bigger than expected. It'll probably be similar to how the S pad takes up most of the M Frigate.
Like okay, the Hyp is bigger now, though while we can scale from the one engine it has, I'm too lazy to properly think about how big it is. But I don't think people looking for the return of the M3+ are thinking of something that big.
With that said, you can also do it like the Astrid/Odachi and create custom turrets which might be smaller, but at that point there wouldn't be much difference between that and new S turrets.

Sounds great - would also solve the problem with the missing S-turrets in X4.

I can already see the LX-2, sitting on a M landing pad. Just like X3 made it, only scaled up

The Star Wars Interworlds mod has S sized turrets for some fighters, so it is doable.

It's not so much the Star Wars Interworld mod - there is a mod framework for S turrets out there. Thus I know it is possible - but there seems to be a distinct reason why Egosoft decided to leave the whole S class without turrets (in contrast to all previous games after X:Btf - X² and X³ had turrets on small ships).

Looking at ship designs, it seems the reason is simplicity of design. And modern turret balancing too.
Consider the issues with turrets on M ships, the issue would be amplified by putting CURRENT turrets on S ships, you'll both need to design a whole new set of S turrets and then all of them would be useless anyway so why waste design time on that.
But these aren't insurmountable issues. Assuming you don't just look at turrets as pure damage dealers, which seems to be precisely what Egosoft do not want atm. Or to be precise, they don't seem to want turrets to be the best at killing fighters ala FAAs.

[LameFox]

Not necessarily arguing, but could you elaborate on what's wrong with M shields? Do you mean they are overpowered or underpowered or something else? Personally, I think X4 corvettes like the Nemesis Vanguard have massively better survivability than typical S ships while maintaining decent maneuverability. So I'd argue the M class and corresponding M shields would provide an advantage over the S class. On the other hand, I do think that X4 frigates far underperform in contrast to the original M6 ships in earlier games. So I'd agree M shields are poor in comparison to their original pedigree. Unfortunately, this is an outcome of the simplification of ship classifications from 8-9 to 3 (with respect to military ships).

The time it takes them to recharge is ridiculous. S fighters can take some hits, manoeuvre evasively for a few seconds, and then get back to the fight with full shields. M ships have a higher initial hp pool, but it still goes down very fast under fire, and once they lose it they're looking at several minutes of downtime. AI suck at dealing with that because they just can't stop getting shot. As a player it's possible (and easier now in the beta because you can still boost) but the shield downtime is pretty tedious.

It probably doesn't help that the same M shield stats are used for turret groups on large ships and stations. Those are very different roles around which to balance the same thing.

[stooper88]

... but could you elaborate on what's wrong with M shields?

The time it takes them to recharge is ridiculous. S fighters can take some hits, manoeuvre evasively for a few seconds, and then get back to the fight with full shields. M ships have a higher initial hp pool, but it still goes down very fast under fire, and once they lose it they're looking at several minutes of downtime. AI suck at dealing with that because they just can't stop getting shot. As a player it's possible (and easier now in the beta because you can still boost) but the shield downtime is pretty tedious.

It probably doesn't help that the same M shield stats are used for turret groups on large ships and stations. Those are very different roles around which to balance the same thing.

I see, thanks for clarifying. It's yet to be seen exactly what loadout options will be available for the Hyperion, whether standard equipment, specialized equipment, or some combination of both. Perhaps the issues with M shield recharge and M turret size (mentioned by Raptor34) could be mitigated by new equipment options. It seems to me that, in releasing the Hyperion, ES is somewhat acknowledging the limitations and drawbacks of the S/M/L ship and equipment classifications and realizing the need for "crossover" designs (L class in a lightweight "slightly larger than frigate" frame). If so, then such a perspective would also be fitting for any potential M class LX.