Support Ships as part of a Fleet are a Liability

[Scoob]

Hey all,

I usually place my Support Ships - Usually Nomad Vanguards - at tactical locations, near a deployed larger fleet. Used to work pretty well but, and I don't know when this happened, my ships will no longer fly to a neighbouring sector to use said deployed Support Ship. So, with this in mind, I've started adding Support ships as part of the fleet in the "Supply Fleet" role. I can without doubt say that doing this has vastly increased my ship losses. No argument. What's the problem then?

Well, once the Fleet is at the desired destination, things aren't too bad, it's getting to the destination that causes the problem. I'll cite a very recent example:

I needed to position a "Heavy" Missile-equipped Destroyer fleet to a sector of mine in need of support. The Support ship there to allow missile resupply as well as repairs. En-route, due to certain fleet members treating it as a stroll in the countryside and being left behind, I was forced to get the fleet to engage. It made short work of things, but this delay allowed reinforcements to arrive. Made short work of those too. I then go to move the fleet off again. It's at this point several ships decide they MUST repair the 1% hull damage they've taken and replenish any missiles (none used FYI lol) - this is despite the Nomad's Automatic Resupply setting being "Off" in an attempt to prevent such things. I CANCELLED the dock to repair orders of several of the Fleet's Destroyers, as others zoomed off to the set location a sector away. Fleet cohesion GONE, ships spread out, hugely vulnerable *sigh*. However, the INSTANT I cancelled the Dock to repair order the game reissued a CRITICAL dock order. So now, due to this forced order, neither than ship nor the Support ship are going anywhere for the next several minutes. Rest of the fleet is now even further away.

Of course, THIS is when a Xenon Destroyer arrives in the area, the area my entire fleet should have left five minutes ago IF they actually obeyed orders. Two ships lost for the most ridiculous reason. So, the ships decided to IGNORE my orders in multiple ways: 1) They IGNORED the fleet-wide Resupply option of "Off", deciding to try to dock at the Nomad anyway. I'm assuming their assignment to support the fleet somehow overrides this setting? 2) they IGNORED my CANCELLING of the dock for repairs orders, adding to the insult by replacing it with a CRITICAL order. 3) They caused the fleet to break up, spreading it over two sectors at one point.

I'd suggest that Support Ships are currently somewhat broken for several reasons:

1) Ship still come to (critical order) resupply even if the Automatic Resupply option is OFF. (Perhaps overridden by the assignment)
2) A CANCELLED dock order is REPLACED by a CRITICAL one unable to be cancelled.
3) Support Ships become stuck in place as a result. Plus there's quite a delay - several minutes - AFTER the repaired ship undocks before the Support ship loses its "critical" wait for signal order. Even more stuck.
4) Lone, deployed Support ship no longer attract Clients from other sectors any more. This is despite being Deployed with the "Supply Fleet" order and Automatic Resupply set to high. They seem to support ships in the current sector ok.
5) Even when working, whatever logic decides when a ship returns will choose to get MULTIPLE ships to all return at once, causing a lot of clutter around the Support Ship. In sector, a bit of a nightmare, and not great OOS either.

During this event, I felt out of control, as the orders I'd given did not result in the order behaviour. I mean, ships deciding to hang around and repair in an enemy sector when explicitly ordered to get the hell out of there lol.

How might things be improved? Having a Support Ship as part of the fleet broke the fleet. The fleet is now one destroyed down and, without the Support Ship, cannot resupply Missiles.

Edit: It happened again. Fleet had been sat parked for a while. However, as soon as I issue a move order only THEN does one of the ship decide it MUST DOCK NOW. This time however, the ship that docked (critical again) had consumed some of its missiles and a Flare, so it had a legit reason to dock. Why it didn't do it until the fleet started moving though is beyond me. So, once again the rest of the fleet flies off, the Nomad and one of the Destroyers do the docking dance. Several minutes later, the Destroy undocks having NOT replenished either Missiles or Flares. So, a total and utter waste of time. Nomad is well-supplied and can readily replenish missiles, it did not.

So, Fleet-assigned Support Ship are actually EVEN WORSE than I original surmised. They DON'T replenish ships when just sat there but once a move order is given, they THEN decide to do so. Ships dock but AREN'T being resupplied. This is a disaster!

[m4nt4]

Exactly for these reasons my support ships are driving me crazy.

[LameFox]

Ships moving together in fleets has consistently been one of the least functional things I've experienced in this game. Not even just bad but frequently straight up not working. Often, I'd be better off just box selecting a bunch of ships and giving them the same order. I really hope they figure it out someday because the game is really designed assuming fleets will work; so many things rely on fleets working.

For the repair issue, I'd also really like settings for what kind of damage makes a ship withdraw to repair.

[MKL81]

One of the reasons I stopped using aux months ago. What about the issue where big ships try to line up to Aux in perfect position while trying to resupply/repair, resulting in being stuck in critical docking phase for literal real time hours? It was painful to watch this "whale dance in slow motion" around auxiliaries.

[Scoob]

I did continue to test this, finally bringing the Fleet to its destination. Several times along the way, I halted the fleet to engage enemy fleets. Each time, ONLY when I ordered the fleet to move off again did fleet members decide they wanted to repair at the Support Ship. Why didn't they before? They were no less damaged, no less in need of a restock. They'd not really suffered any damage of note, the ENTIRE fleet has resupply OFF, yet the moment I give a move order they decide they MUST repair now. If there had been a self-destruct button on the Nomad, I'd have used it in that moment lol.

These large Auxiliary Support ships should, in my view, work a bit differently. They should use Cargo Drones for any sort of resupply, and have a "special" class of either super-fast Repair Drones or long-range repair lasers for hull and module repairs. Docking with them works really really badly. Last night, one of my ships finally docked at the Nomad, then undocked without repairing or restocking, then docked AGAIN. The whole process took over five minutes...in the middle of an enemy sector when the rest of the fleet had already flown away.

I'm now breaking off ALL the Nomads which were part of a fleet into their own separate Support groups. This is what I usually do, the "part of the fleet" experiment is over. I will deploy them where I need them. Even alone though they work sporadically. With one Nomad I have deployed near a front-line (Gate to Xenon space) the fleet there sees quite a lot of action. The Nomad and the separate military Fleet have resupply set to "High". Sometimes ships rush back to the Nomad after taking the tiniest bit of hull damage, not needing any supplies. Another time they'll die from attrition over the space of an hour or so choosing NEVER to return for actual repairs they really really need. I don't understand the inconsistency.

Basically, with any Resupply setting between OFF and HIGH, ship may or may not return for repairs. There's something more than a little broken with these Support ships.

[oddgit]

I only have them in fleet for gate blockade fleets. Any time i am attacking systems i have them held back by the gate or just on the other side of the gate with their own defense group and send ships to them as needed.

[Scoob]

I only have them in fleet for gate blockade fleets. Any time i am attacking systems i have them held back by the gate or just on the other side of the gate with their own defense group and send ships to them as needed.

One of the early problems I had - which was smart behaviour on the part of the Xenon - was that the Xenon would target the Support Ship in the fleet. Perhaps it was coincidence, but several times the Support Ship was the first loss I suffered. It was then I started deploying them independently, 40km or so behind the fleet.

[Raptor34]

I only have them in fleet for gate blockade fleets. Any time i am attacking systems i have them held back by the gate or just on the other side of the gate with their own defense group and send ships to them as needed.

One of the early problems I had - which was smart behaviour on the part of the Xenon - was that the Xenon would target the Support Ship in the fleet. Perhaps it was coincidence, but several times the Support Ship was the first loss I suffered. It was then I started deploying them independently, 40km or so behind the fleet.

My gate fleets did have that issue occasionally. Though my read was that aux ships do intelligently tail behind the flag carrier. The not so intelligent part is what happens when the carrier is facing away from the gate, and the tail is now next to the gate... Though I'll note it didn't happen often enough that I cared to look deeper, so it's just my opinion at this point. I just added a bunch of destroyers to screen the aux ship after that.

[LameFox]

Yeah, I have seen that behaviour kill them, too. The idea was sound I guess, but they didn't think it through. The distance they tail behind is so great that in a live scenario where ships can appear from multiple directions, the supply ship is no longer protected by the fleet. And that's even IF the formation works.

[Scoob]

What I do is park the lead Carrier in a set location facing the gate, then have subordinates on Defend, Attack, Bombard, Intercept so they stick to their individual strengths. I then moved the Carrier further back - very dangerous Xenon in my game - setting the Larger ships to use Position Defence, with Fighters still set to Intercept. Works pretty well. In this config a following Support ship generally stays in a relatively safe position, but can be targetted still of course. I gave it its own sub-fleet for protection.

However, if ANY sort of fleet movement is involved, the Support ship is gone as it totally breaks cohesive fleet movement.

Interestingly, as I develop these sectors more, adding a Shipyard, my ships prefer to fly a sector away to visit that, vs. the fully-stocked Support ship in the same sector. It is actually FASTER for them to do it that way, as there's less kerfuffle with docking (and undocking) at a Shipyard vs. a Support ship. Also, after a Ship undocks, a Shipyards doesn't wander off a few km like a Support ship sometimes does.

[Raptor34]

Do they visit EQ docks? Because honestly I've found aux ships to work well enough that I never really thought if they fly off somewhere else.

[Scoob]

Do they visit EQ docks? Because honestly I've found aux ships to work well enough that I never really thought if they fly off somewhere else.

When given the command to Supply Fleet, they will Buy what they need from the market either via their own tenders (if in range) or other ships will deliver. I've set things up in such a way that I have supply lines so whatever they need is delivered by my general logistics ships.

When I say fly off, they don't have a destination and they're not actioning a command as such. They just seem to randomly start manoeuvring themselves sometimes after a Capital Ship undocks from them. This can, over time, cause them to drift km away from where they were originally set. They'll then be turning when other ships are trying to dock, slowing down the whole process. It's part of the reason why it's far faster for ships to fly to another sector to dock at a station of mine for repair and rearm.

[Raptor34]

Do they visit EQ docks? Because honestly I've found aux ships to work well enough that I never really thought if they fly off somewhere else.

When given the command to Supply Fleet, they will Buy what they need from the market either via their own tenders (if in range) or other ships will deliver. I've set things up in such a way that I have supply lines so whatever they need is delivered by my general logistics ships.

When I say fly off, they don't have a destination and they're not actioning a command as such. They just seem to randomly start manoeuvring themselves sometimes after a Capital Ship undocks from them. This can, over time, cause them to drift km away from where they were originally set. They'll then be turning when other ships are trying to dock, slowing down the whole process. It's part of the reason why it's far faster for ships to fly to another sector to dock at a station of mine for repair and rearm.

Oh no, I meant my ships that need resupply, you said you found them flying off to your shipyard, so I was wondering if they are smart enough if I setup a combo EQ/Defense station whether they would make use of it. It'll be way easier to reload missile ships for instance if I tag on a SPP and use closed loop along with tons of storage.

[Scoob]

Oh no, I meant my ships that need resupply, you said you found them flying off to your shipyard, so I was wondering if they are smart enough if I setup a combo EQ/Defense station whether they would make use of it. It'll be way easier to reload missile ships for instance if I tag on a SPP and use closed loop along with tons of storage.

Ah, yes, my Military Fleet will often fly to a nearby Shipyard of mine for resupply. Perhaps even a well-stocked Nomad didn't have all it needed, whereas the Shipyard is very well-stocked.

I do tend to build either full S/M/L/XL Shipyards or Maintenance Bays in strategic locations, however, as I was moving certain fleets through hostile space, I thought giving them their own support ship would make life easier. It didn't lol.

So, yes, if you have a nearby (one sector away) Station with the require facilities, your ships, like mine, should visit it. For clarity, I have the Station's "Resupply Subordinates" set to "High" and I have the Fleet set to "High" too. I'm not entirely convinced these settings do anything currently (as ships still resupply with this setting to "Off") but that's what I've set things to and my ships are returning to the Station.

I will say that a deployed Support Ship used to be a veritable magnet to ships of mine in need from multiple sectors away. Resupply Stations were the same. However, the distance ships will travel to resupply seems less than it once was. Perhaps pilot level related, perhaps not.

[Raptor34]

Oh no, I meant my ships that need resupply, you said you found them flying off to your shipyard, so I was wondering if they are smart enough if I setup a combo EQ/Defense station whether they would make use of it. It'll be way easier to reload missile ships for instance if I tag on a SPP and use closed loop along with tons of storage.

Ah, yes, my Military Fleet will often fly to a nearby Shipyard of mine for resupply. Perhaps even a well-stocked Nomad didn't have all it needed, whereas the Shipyard is very well-stocked.

I do tend to build either full S/M/L/XL Shipyards or Maintenance Bays in strategic locations, however, as I was moving certain fleets through hostile space, I thought giving them their own support ship would make life easier. It didn't lol.

So, yes, if you have a nearby (one sector away) Station with the require facilities, your ships, like mine, should visit it. For clarity, I have the Station's "Resupply Subordinates" set to "High" and I have the Fleet set to "High" too. I'm not entirely convinced these settings do anything currently (as ships still resupply with this setting to "Off") but that's what I've set things to and my ships are returning to the Station.

I will say that a deployed Support Ship used to be a veritable magnet to ships of mine in need from multiple sectors away. Resupply Stations were the same. However, the distance ships will travel to resupply seems less than it once was. Perhaps pilot level related, perhaps not.

Interesting. Now if only they would let stations function as fleet commanders where they can deploy forces, using position defense for instance, then things would be swell.
Just have an EQ dock and deploy swarms of missile armed frigates which automatically fly back to the absolutely huge storage a station can have to rearm.

[Scoob]

Interesting. Now if only they would let stations function as fleet commanders where they can deploy forces, using position defense for instance, then things would be swell.
Just have an EQ dock and deploy swarms of missile armed frigates which automatically fly back to the absolutely huge storage a station can have to rearm.

The Fleet in question is now solely reliant on travelling to the next sector to use the facilities there. It's working so much more smoothly than it did with the Nomad as a fleet-member, and when deployed solo. That Support ship has been moved elsewhere now, but is largely redundant at this point.

These support ships are ok for free hull repairs, but need to be supplied to do anything more than that of course. They're also a proven liability if the fleet ever undertakes "Attack Move" operations while on the way to a destination. It's easier to just accept possible losses en-route, rather than bring a Support ship along, have the fleet break up, then take MORE losses as a result.

[RubyRezal]

The problem I have with Aux ships is I'll manually give ships drones in an arrangement I prefer. After they've executed my manual resupply order they suddenly decide that what I want is wrong. They re-dock, delete the drones I just loaded, and return the ship to an arbitrary preset that I seem to be unable to change.

[Scoob]

The problem I have with Aux ships is I'll manually give ships drones in an arrangement I prefer. After they've executed my manual resupply order they suddenly decide that what I want is wrong. They re-dock, delete the drones I just loaded, and return the ship to an arbitrary preset that I seem to be unable to change.

Not seen that one! Do we think ships are perhaps locked-in to the Drone configuration they were built with? I.e. it was built with 10 repair drones, but you wanted 2 Repair Drones, 6 Defence Drones and two Cargo Drones after resupply, but then it "overwrote" your changed requirements. I'd expect an explicit change load out order would reset the template to which the ship resupplies....

[RubyRezal]

The problem I have with Aux ships is I'll manually give ships drones in an arrangement I prefer. After they've executed my manual resupply order they suddenly decide that what I want is wrong. They re-dock, delete the drones I just loaded, and return the ship to an arbitrary preset that I seem to be unable to change.

Not seen that one! Do we think ships are perhaps locked-in to the Drone configuration they were built with? I.e. it was built with 10 repair drones, but you wanted 2 Repair Drones, 6 Defence Drones and two Cargo Drones after resupply, but then it "overwrote" your changed requirements. I'd expect an explicit change load out order would reset the template to which the ship resupplies....

I've mostly noticed this with Erlking. I give it 4-5 cargo drones, a couple repair drones and fill the rest with defense drones. When it finishes that order it will undock then (if it has no other orders) it will immediately create its own change equipment order and reset its drone stock to only 7 defense drones. I've noticed this consistently across multiple game starts.

[Targ Collective]

Support Ships need to be scaled up to the size of your fleet - that's the problem; they have one dock for L and XL ships and it takes forever to use. Ideal deployment is one third support ships, one third carriers, one third destroyers. Note carriers need to be told to Get Supplies to help resupply, which they will assist with on S and M vessels.

Support Ships have deep reserves of drones, so as drone carriers they excel. They are also well shielded and, if you choose the right equipment, can be competitively fast. If supplying L and XL ships you need more of them - that's the key to compensate for that docking speed.

Yes, I wish they could repair and outfit faster, but then the bottleneck would be the supply resources they can store. If that's not a bottleneck then they become super-capacity traders. How long things take, and how much can be done between activity sessions, is at the heart of game design. NPCs use them fine, but NPCs don't scale up fleets like players do. One support ship for a fleet of destroyers is not enough. Build more of them.