what foolproof changes can be made to the AI to prevent this?

[fipmip]

https://i.imgur.com/e9s0nZe.png

Here we see a teladi AI fleet besieging a xenon shipyard. the destroyers are sitting around the station, blasting away. every single M/S ship that was with them, flew into the station and was wiped out. there was no need for them to do that, the destroyers could have just destroyed the station without the sacrifice.

I feel like we need to sit down and hash out a ruleset that prevents AI from doing this, while also remaining intelligent. the simple answer is: make it so S/M ships dont fly close to enemy stations. What should they do instead then when there are no other enemies? stay still outside of range? what if a L or X/L is attacking the station, but is being harassed by enemy S/M ships. should the friendly S/M ships be able to fly close then?

also there may be other scenarios where attacking with S/Ms is preferrable. for example, if those ships were equipped with torpedoes, or if there are so many that they can overwhelm the station. I'm hoping this thread can turn into a real piece of feedback that can improve the game and give more satisfying in AI. I've come up with a stating point, and so far I have:

1. S/M ships should stay away from station turrets, unless they can combine their strength to an overwhelming degree without distractions. this will implicitly allow ships to siege stations without turrets. turrets with slow projectiles should also be taken into account.
2. S/M ships should pursue enemy S/M ships but give up pursuit after a short delay if targeted by station turrets.
3. damaged S/M ships should be more wary of getting close to stations and highly damaged ships should retreat and go back to an equipment dock to repair.
4. S/M ships should use friendly L/XL for cover and feel safer getting close to stations while staying roughly behind these ships (behind is the rough arc that exists on the opposite vector from the L/XL ship to the station).
5. while in a seige but not attacking stations but having nothing else to do, S/M ships should patrol in the area behind L/XL ships
6. There should be a command for the player to force attack stations and station turrets.

Edit: as I say this, the teladi destroyers are, one by one, flying past the station in close proximity and subsequently being blown up instantly. I think egosoft could stand to do some work on L/XL ship AI as well, but lets just focus on one thing per thread.

[Phezzan]

also there may be other scenarios where attacking with S/Ms is preferrable. for example, if those ships were equipped with torpedoes, or if there are so many that they can overwhelm the station. I'm hoping this thread can turn into a real piece of feedback that can improve the game and give more satisfying in AI. I've come up with a stating point, and so far I have:

The ships need to be aware of the station's DPS filtered by the attacker's range

Pheonix - 10k / 9k / 5k / 2k (main guns / L Plasma / M Plasma / M Pulse)
Osprey - 5k / 2k (M Plasma / M Pulse)

So the station might have:
2k range - 10k dps
5k range - 9k dps
9k range - 4k dps
10k range - 0 dps

So then each ship calculates from longest range to shortest...

At Range x, is (Ship HP / Station DPS * Ship DPS) > Station HP ?

If NO - treat station range as a collision avoidance sphere of range X
If YES - continue evaluating shorter ranges.

If the M/S ships are in a group/fleet - sum the Ship HP and Ship DPS and run all as a group

[fipmip]

also there may be other scenarios where attacking with S/Ms is preferrable. for example, if those ships were equipped with torpedoes, or if there are so many that they can overwhelm the station. I'm hoping this thread can turn into a real piece of feedback that can improve the game and give more satisfying in AI. I've come up with a stating point, and so far I have:

The ships need to be aware of the station's DPS filtered by the attacker's range

Pheonix - 10k / 9k / 5k / 2k (main guns / L Plasma / M Plasma / M Pulse)
Osprey - 5k / 2k (M Plasma / M Pulse)

So the station might have:
2k range - 10k dps
5k range - 9k dps
9k range - 4k dps
10k range - 0 dps

So then each ship calculates from longest range to shortest...

At Range x, is (Ship HP / Station DPS * Ship DPS) > Station HP ?

If NO - treat station range as a collision avoidance sphere of range X
If YES - continue evaluating shorter ranges.

If the M/S ships are in a group/fleet - sum the Ship HP and Ship DPS and run all as a group

I mean this could work but it has to take into account the positioning of the remainder of the fleet. furthermore, it doesnt take into account the ability for fighters to apply that dps, or the sightlines of turrets, or the fact that fighters will be picked off. and thus lower their combined dps.

anyway with regards to the main thread, i was thinking of a more elegant solution. we could introduce a new command: seige station. this command will cause ships to circle a station at a defined distance, attacking reinforcing ships or station defenders, but not the station itself. they will also allow defenders to escape if they fly towards the station and not follow, but will chase for a decent distance if they fly away from the station. they will also avoid flying into other stations. This command can be the default command an AI fleet uses on their S/M ships. As for L/XL ships, if using the command they will exibit similar behaviour, circling the station but it probably isnt preferable to use. using a normal attack command should cause them to attack like they are in the OP picture, but egosoft needs to look at the repositioning behavior that causes them to suicide into the station.

[Duncaroos]

Just offering an alternative solution - in the case devs are wary of adding more items to a ship's GUI command list, is to expand on the Fire Authorization Override (FAO) list.

Topics like Object Type, Size, Purpose, etc., witch already exist in the Alerts page of Global Orders, should be integrated into the FAO options.

Doing this opens up so much for subordinate behaviors and not have to expand the command list, and can cover this scenario. Example: Create FAO for default aggression, but set:

• Object Type = Ship
• Size = XS, S, and/or M (L and/or XL - optional)
• Purpose = Fight

Setting ships to that FAO I would think would resolve them from attacking anything that they can't make a dent on, or would just get decimated. Now, the only issue with this is setting an FAO for an entire wing; quick and dirty is to assign on ship as a direct subordinate, assign the FAO, and then have the rest of the wing under "Mimic" command that will pick up the FAO from their commander. Ideally, FAO's should be offer for each wing (maybe in the loadout page where you can change the wing behaviour and launched/dock setting)

[Duncaroos]

We could introduce a new command: seige station. this command will cause ships to circle a station at a defined distance, attacking reinforcing ships or station defenders, but not the station itself.

This sounds a lot like coordinate attack, but Im guessing this is more of a "coordinate defence" command for supporting fleets that are attacking.

Perhaps using the Point Defence as a base could be tweaked or enhanced for this siege support?

[El Chancho]

The AI overhead for some of these suggestions would slow down the game in large combat situations to a crawl

May I suggest simple rules and conditional triggers?

We can set minimum range to target. Capital ships have to displace, reacquire and reengage if they are closer than say 7000 meters from a base with no targets. Fighters 1000 meters

If shields drop below a set value, say 50%, automatically do a 180 and boost out of there

[vvvvvvvv]

what foolproof changes can be made to the AI to prevent this?

Those kind of questions can't really be answered without seeing game's source code. AI at the moment is very basic, many thing could use an improvement, but it is unknown whether an improviement is POSSIBLE without looking under the hood first.

[Hector0x]

Inefficient attacks on chokepoints are by design. The attacking fleets are supposed to get wiped. This is just conflicting with the player's natural desire to avoid casualties.

Since the NPCs are not supposed to survive the best solution would probably a checkbox toggle only for the player. Attack station yes/no

[Nanook]

As Hector0x alluded to, it's most likely by design that ships get destroyed. Without ship destruction and replacement, the whole game economy would grind to a halt. It's what drives the economy. So eliminating that behaviour could have severe consequences on the game as a whole. Be careful what you wish for!