Critical issue or WAI ? : Xenon extermination

[bof111]

Hi there !

So first i beg a dev or the one in charge for the balance universe tests or a competent guy (modder who looked into the code or whatever) to give a clear answer about what is the final expected state of the xenon in the universe, please. It's not a rant but i need to understand objectively. If needed, a can even give some feedback after.
My question is now, but seriously, what are the dev team test results on the long term about the universe balance of the xenons ? And more important, what is the devs idea behind the xenon ? Are they only meant to be a temporary faction ?
I see only three options here :
1. Extermination. In the long run the xenon will be wiped out naturally. (programmed extermination by the neutral balance of the universe) -> Then it's WAI.
2. Concentration. The clusters are meant to be slowly destroyed in order to rebuild the ship productions installations in common sectors reinforcing the xenon power in a less extended territory but much more resilient. -> Then it's WAI too.
3. Status Quo. The clusters should remain as they are leading some static borders. -> Then it's a critical issue.
So what is it ?

For the context :
I've got already more than +60game days (no seta) splited on different versions and playthrough on x4 since the 4.0 version. (all DLC)
Now I started a new game on 7.1 (vanilla of course) and the xenon are a mess like they never where.
From the start i fight the terran (exterminated them at 3 game days), the teladi (wiped a few complete fleets combining the ministry and the company, badly damaged the ship production stations), pirating everyone just as fast as i can just to limit the power of the factions that have a border with the xenons but nothing really helps.
I'm now at 3d:20h in my save where i only try to save the xenon from the start but Emperor Pride is gone, Matrix 9 is on the egde of falling with a attack of 11 phoenix with all the escort that comes in the "package". Ianamus Zura combines 4 complete fleets counting more than 20 phoenix not to mention the swarms of S/M class. Company regards is in the same state. How the xenon are supposed to survive this ?
I can't do anything else than crushing as i can the normal faction and it's becoming really annoying. So should i let it go and it will stabilize or not ? Loosing all the xenon are not an option for me.

Sorry for the english i did my best given the complexity of what i mean.

[CBJ]

It's really hard to answer that question, because it's a living breathing universe and we don't have direct control over the "final state". Think of it a bit like a weather system; you can influence it by introducing heat or moisture or wind in a particular area, but you don't know exactly what the effect will be. In fact a single change to the input may have any number of different effects in different places, and desirable outcomes may be outweighed by undesirable ones. On top of that, the slightest change in what happens during the game can have a huge impact (the butterfly effect).

To address your specific options:

1. Obviously we don't want the Xenon to always be wiped out in every game, but it's one possible end-state that we can't rule out, with or without player interference.
2. The Xenon may naturally concentrate in smaller areas in some games, but that's an effect of their interaction with other factions and the player, not a design goal (but then again, neither does it contradict any design goals).
3. A status quo with fixed borders is not a design goal, and is not a particularly desirable state.

To reiterate what we've said many, many times already, there is no magic "difficulty" or "aggression" dial that we can turn to make the Xenon stronger or weaker. Every dial we do have is at a much lower level than that, and can have all kinds of other effects beyond the one we want to achieve, so we adjust those dials very carefully, and mindfully of the fact that the results have to work for all kinds of different players.

[vvvvvvvv]

...

Based on what I know about the lore, I think following scenario is possible:

* Xenon control huge number of stars, maybe even significant portion of the galaxy. They're von-neumann probes, and can spread in geometric progression.
* However, all those systems are outside of gate network.
* It is also possible that the player is dealing with ancient stragglers stuck in gate network, and there's more advanced version elsewhere, that hasn't reached the player... yet.

Makes me wonder if you'll ever play with this possibility.

[Calgor Grim]

I would propose for consideration, given that as of 7.0 we now have the ability to poke the bear as it were with the crisis, whether such mechanics can be extended to allow particularly inclined players to be able to use this system to invite a fresh wave of Xenon or even Kha'ak done at their own judgement but rather than them being targeted at player assets, simply dropping them into the network.

I envision a system whereby a player, dissatisfied with how their enemies ended up in their own file, can invest a quantity of resources and/or credits to our fish-tank bound friend to perform some sort of experiment with a new deep space radar as he tries to survey ever more of the cosmos. Unfortunately doing so happens to catch the attention of a rather large hostile presence who follow the signal source and randomly drop into a sector somewhere on the network with overwhelming force. The resulting force is a concentrated mass of all unallocated jobs, dropping their full allocation of ships into one area to attempt to claw some territory and regain a presence and attempting to give that faction a shot in the arm as well as giving whoever they are unfortunate to drop in upon, a rather bad day.

With something like that you're not adjusting the heat or moisture at an early stage to risk a butterfly effect but you are giving players a big red button that says "Press here to summon a poisonous lightning-tornado full of wasps somewhere on the map. Good luck..."

[bof111]

It's really hard to answer that question...

Many thanks for your time CBJ. I understand well the system and it's complexity witch makes it so interesting and btw, congratulations to the team for achieving such a evolved simulation.
Now i have a better idea of the design. In fact there is no much to be done then except protecting them.
Maybe the last thing would be : the concentration "strategy" could lead to more stable xenon sectors or not from a coding perspective ? (well no one seems to know well enough how are the xenon configured in the code) That would avoid to constantly monitor the xenon and come to the rescue every 2 or 3 hours.

And as mentioned by others, i can only suggest to introduce a resurrection mechanic for them. See it as a security system to be able to control the most extreme final configuration of the universe if it occurs.

[jlehtone]

And as mentioned by others, i can only suggest to introduce a resurrection mechanic for them. See it as a security system to be able to control the most extreme final configuration of the universe if it occurs.

Have you noticed the occasional threads about VIG? Some players try to wipe them out completely and are clearly annoyed about VIG shipyard popping back to "their sector". Likewise, SCA, BUC and Kha'ak (ships) tend to spawn, rather than being produced "by economy" ... again a source for lamentation for some players.

The common theme is that players do like the "economy", including the "can beat NPC to pulp" part. The miracle of resurrection is not part of that. Granted, XEN lack trade partners unlike everybody else -- that makes their death harder.


The TER have clearly home fleet and intervention corps. One stays to protect home. The other raids neighbours. XEN presumably have the same. How badly does a buff on home fleet explode?

[Alan Phipps]

Just a thought but the mechanic option already exists for a Xenon end-game crisis to give the combat-oriented players something extra to do. It might be possible with some acceptable development effort (?) to have two levels for that mechanic whereby players can choose to either save the galaxy from an immensely powerful Xenon onslaught, or alternatively to bring back a lesser level of Xenon presence (and perhaps resurrected ship building) just to spice up a late game that otherwise lacks Xenon presence.

[Calgor Grim]

Just a thought but the mechanic option already exists for a Xenon end-game crisis to give the combat-oriented players something extra to do. It might be possible with some acceptable development effort (?) to have two levels for that mechanic whereby players can choose to either save the galaxy from an immensely powerful Xenon onslaught, or alternatively to bring back a lesser level of Xenon presence (and perhaps resurrected ship building) just to spice up a late game that otherwise lacks Xenon presence.

This was literally what I was proposing further up

We have a starting point in place to implement this, Boso Ta's experimentations. We clearly have some of the functions behind the scenes to dump hostile ships across the galaxy as the crisis is able to spawn and direct itself at player assets. Mods can already just spawn ships and leave it to AI controls to do what they do. So at this point it's the implementation of something that goes:

"Press here to spawn a lot of XEN somewhere..."

[Alan Phipps]

I think that without a significant resurrection of Xenon shipbuilding (and logistics) somewhere that can go on to expand and protect itself better, then just spawning more Xenon ships is just a temporary sticking plaster over the fundamental problem of Xenon elimination.

[zakaluka]

What I find interesting in this thread is all of these conclusions based on just one universe generation since 7.1. Like, there are a great many possible outcomes that are both dynamic as the game plays, but also influenced heavily by the starting state of the universe and what the player does.

You may have the xenon advance out into NPC space and go on a rampage, from the very beginning. Or the opposite may happen and the NPC factions may dominate.

But both are less likely now thanks to the defense stations. Everyone is far more likely than before to have static borders, and trade fleets endlessly under cover of those defense stations.

I have seen all of these happen, just since 7.1.