[FeatureReuest] A faster way to build stations.

[vvvvvvvv]

Would be great to have a way to accelerate building process, because people are building megafactories, and something like habitat module can take 30-40 minutes.

It could be addressed this way:

* Multiple builders can operate on the same station.
* Building speed is unchanged, but a builder can only work at a single module at a time.
* A builder can only work on a module if it is connected to another module (even if that other module is being constructed) or the module is free-floating.
* Additionally it is possible to impose restriction that you can only use multiple builders if you personally own them. And you can't hire several of them to work in parallel.

Current approach feels like artificial stalling for time and does not bring any any enjoyment to the game (to me at least).

[Alan Phipps]

More feedback here too.

[Baconnaise]

Would be great to have a way to accelerate building process, because people are building megafactories, and something like habitat module can take 30-40 minutes.

It could be addressed this way:

* Multiple builders can operate on the same station.
* Building speed is unchanged, but a builder can only work at a single module at a time.
* A builder can only work on a module if it is connected to another module (even if that other module is being constructed) or the module is free-floating.
* Additionally it is possible to impose restriction that you can only use multiple builders if you personally own them. And you can't hire several of them to work in parallel.

Current approach feels like artificial stalling for time and does not bring any any enjoyment to the game (to me at least).

I wonder if this would break the game and cause more trouble than it's worth? You can mod module build times down to one minute (capped). The builders go in order but if you had two even if the second one started with last build order would it cause a problem when they inevitably meet? I seem to recall Rebirth having issues when you cheated in extra drones among other things to shipyards and builders when it came out. The drones would also get caught up on things and break as well.

[BitByte]

If habitat module building takes 30-40 minutes it means you have chosen construction vessel with low amount of buildong drones.
When using one which have 30+ drones it won't take even 15 minutes.

Because there's so many things what can be done during same time I think it would just need small change - when possible build 2 or 3 modules at the same time (depending if builder have proper amount of drones) when construction order allows it.
When cross module is ready and there's 3 modules planned to build from it AND construction vessel have 90 drones it could do those.

[adeine]

More discussion here.

[vvvvvvvv]

I wonder if this would break the game and cause more trouble than it's worth?

It really won't. And whoever doesn't like it, can just not use it.

If habitat module building takes 30-40 minutes it means you have chosen

While a builder ship is building it can lose construction modules. However, building is a criticial task, meaning you cannot replace the builder and cannot restock its drones. So if a K flies by, and kills bunch of drones in ensuing firefight, you're screwed.

15 minutes against 40 does not change much, because on a large station you'll be building HUNDREDS of modules. For example, 50 or 60 L habitats. A small megafactory would look like this:



A larger one would be this:


So if I could construct one module at a time with multiple ships in parallel, I'd happily acquire a hundred construction ship for something like this.

Splitting it into many small stationsis not a good idea either, because you can't move stations around, and because it'll create a mess in UI.

[Baconnaise]

I wonder if this would break the game and cause more trouble than it's worth?

It really won't. And whoever doesn't like it, can just not use it.

If habitat module building takes 30-40 minutes it means you have chosen

15 minutes against 40 does not change much, because on a large station you'll be building HUNDREDS of modules. For example, 50 or 60 L habitats.

So if I could construct one module at a time with multiple ships in parallel, I'd happily acquire a hundred construction ship for something like this.

Splitting it into many small stationsis not a good idea either, because you can't move stations around, and because it'll create a mess in UI.

As stated previously, building as it stands currently even if implemented is at least one minute per module. A one-hundred-module station would take at least one hundred minutes to build regardless of drone quantity. If Egosoft played around and allowed a second builder or more to spawn modules then yes it would halve the time required. My concern having put many hours into Rebirth and X4 is primarily from a lack of faith in the game engine to execute such endeavors without significant effort. I assume you meant building stations in stages? Stations are easily moved using cheat menu mod or something akin to that. You can also move sector gates around as well in the same fashion.

EDIT: I just want to be clear that I'm all for fast build times. I have zero confidence it can be done well in this game.

[BitByte]

Yes you can cancel building AND get new builder if want.
That is main reason why I hire NPC builder with 50+ construction drones if building site is in dangerous area.

I don't have even single station which have 200 modules. Since it became possible to rotate modules 360 it reduced a lot amount of useless modules needed per station.

[Sutopia]

Would be great to have a way to accelerate building process, because people are building megafactories, and something like habitat module can take 30-40 minutes.

It could be addressed this way:

* Multiple builders can operate on the same station.
* Building speed is unchanged, but a builder can only work at a single module at a time.
* A builder can only work on a module if it is connected to another module (even if that other module is being constructed) or the module is free-floating.
* Additionally it is possible to impose restriction that you can only use multiple builders if you personally own them. And you can't hire several of them to work in parallel.

Current approach feels like artificial stalling for time and does not bring any any enjoyment to the game (to me at least).

I wonder if this would break the game and cause more trouble than it's worth? You can mod module build times down to one minute (capped). The builders go in order but if you had two even if the second one started with last build order would it cause a problem when they inevitably meet? I seem to recall Rebirth having issues when you cheated in extra drones among other things to shipyards and builders when it came out. The drones would also get caught up on things and break as well.

It’s more about topology analysis not being used in the current game. Even with predetermined build order, it is possible to have such structures:
B <- A -> C
ABC are placed in alphabetical order. Finishing A should automatically allow build of B and C simultaneously as B and C are not dependent on each other. If you placed blocks in BAC it will build B first and then can only build A; it shouldn’t be able to skip to C.
This encourages better designs at least over shuffle.

Floating parts should receive a penalty as it’s not correlated to any other part of the station. Easiest way is to exclude them from dependency check, or in other words, only interconnected builds enjoy multithreading. Implementation is fairly simple too, use a whitelisting of what can be built next, and only start a new head if no more dependent modules are available. You can even do a bit of BFS there to ensure the build order is even, where piloting skill of the construction ship should determine if they’re good enough to take more optimal build orders.

Definition of “optimal” choice: the BFS result with the most build time thread, as it’s multithreading it is less optimal to work on shallow nodes first using up more thread upfront and have lack of threadding ability afterwards. Consider following build
A > B > C > D
V V V V
E F G H

After building A and B, if you only have two builders, it is apparent that building C first will open more options for either more multithreading or just generally reduce total build time, but bad pilot can go for E and F causing waste of time later as one stay idle and only one builder work on C.

[vvvvvvvv]

As stated previously, building as it stands currently even if implemented is at least one minute per module. A one-hundred-module station would take at least one hundred minutes...

Sixteen minutes with SETA.

A one-hundred-module station would take at least one hundred minutes to build regardless of drone quantity.

There are propositions in opening post One of them is that you can build a hundred one minute module station in one minute if you have one hundred construction ships.

I assume you meant building stations in stages?

NO, I explained what I meant in opening post. One proposiiton was to allow parallel building ship, meaning with one builder ship you can build one module at a time, with two you can build two, and so on.

Engine can handle this. It does this routinely while rebuilding partially xenon stations. Those self-build. Modules slowly materializes, multiple unfinished (but not destroyed) may exist simultaneously.

Stations are easily moved using cheat menu mod or something akin to that. You can also move sector gates around as well in the same fashion.

No. No cheat menu. I'd prefer the base game to improve without relying on community's goodwill to fix things.

It’s more about topology analysis not being used in the current game. Even with predetermined build order, it is possible to have such structures:
B <- A -> C

Yes, and that's the point. This make it an interesting puzzle.

However, the suggestion was that A does not need to be completed for B and C to begin building. The moment it reaches some percentage, B and C could start being built.

[Sutopia]

It’s more about topology analysis not being used in the current game. Even with predetermined build order, it is possible to have such structures:
B <- A -> C

Yes, and that's the point. This make it an interesting puzzle.

However, the suggestion was that A does not need to be completed for B and C to begin building. The moment it reaches some percentage, B and C could start being built.

I’m against the % and free floating cheese as it makes it too easy to just throw a lot of builders at the build to finish it.

[LameFox]

I don't really see the point. The game doesn't need the player to make megastations, they're just not actually necessary for any task it presents us with. It allows you to build to great excess if you feel like doing that, but there's no particular need to support it explicitly.

Doing so might even create some unrealistic expectations amongst players, who will find that having built such a thing their performance anywhere near it is horribly degraded, and that they have nothing meaningful to actually do with it. These complaints arise enough already...

[vvvvvvvv]

it makes it too easy to just throw a lot of builders at the build to finish it.

I believe you overlooked the part where I said where player should own those builders. Meaning you should've built or bought 100 builders. And that puts it at end-game level.

Because buying 100 Argon Mammoths is between 800 million and 2.2 billion and you'd need to prop the economy. Then you'd need to protect them, because one stray I will reduce their numbers quickly. No, it is not "too easy" at all.

I don't really see the point. The game...

People have different playstyles, some of them rely on megastations.

For example, I never needed to use Piracy. Does it mean it should be removed? No. Same thing.

[LameFox]

People have different playstyles, some of them rely on megastations.

For example, I never needed to use Piracy. Does it mean it should be removed? No. Same thing.

No, that is not the same thing. You are talking about removing something, I am saying they might be better off not adding a mechanic that expedites doing something which isn't necessary for literally any game content and craters performance in its vicinity. This is actually significantly different from removing it. You can do it now and you'd still be able to do it if they don't add this.

[vvvvvvvv]

You are talking about removing something, I am saying they might be better off not adding a mechanic that expedites doing something which isn't necessary

Well, content added by all the DLCs and updates also technically isn't necessary. Would you prefer it was not there?

I do not see your position as reasonable. This playstyle exists, it needs QoL, and current time-gating with no way to improve the situation adds nothing. Creating multiple stations quickly results in a huge mess. And it is far easier to let people build their borg cubes in peace rather than optimizing the UI so multi-station becomes manageable. It is also not true that this is not needed. Terraforming is far easier with megastation, due to lacking mechanics for mass item transfers.

The station on one of the screenshots has 695 modules. That's a SMALL megastation. I built it without cheats, and there aren't any mechanics in the game to make its building faster. There absolutely isn't enough content to pad waiting time with. It was a deeply unenjoyable process, and that's why it could use an improvement. If the only way was to build multi-station network instead, that would be the point where I uninstall the game. Because designing large stations - even with current editor shortcomings - is fun.

I have nothing else to say to you.

[Sutopia]

I don't really see the point. The game doesn't need the player to make megastations, they're just not actually necessary for any task it presents us with. It allows you to build to great excess if you feel like doing that, but there's no particular need to support it explicitly.

Doing so might even create some unrealistic expectations amongst players, who will find that having built such a thing their performance anywhere near it is horribly degraded, and that they have nothing meaningful to actually do with it. These complaints arise enough already...

I’ve heard more complaints about trader searching for trade causing performance issues where mega station IS the solution as it eliminates trade of intermediaries.

[Baconnaise]

I’ve heard more complaints about trader searching for trade causing performance issues where mega station IS the solution as it eliminates trade of intermediaries.

True. I've long since gone the edited station module route for mega stations. It also tackles build times to some degree as you won't typically need over 100 modules. Cheesing notwithstanding.

[GCU Grey Area]

Terraforming is far easier with megastation, due to lacking mechanics for mass item transfers.

For mass ware transfers recommend setting up a network of trade stations using manually configured pricing to indicate direction of flow between them (i.e. prices increase by 1cr at each station in the chain between the original source & HQ). Apply appropriate trade rules & blacklists to ensure that only player-owned ships can trade & they can only fly along the prescribed routes, then assign a bunch of ships to each station.

While for convenience (& also the simple enjoyment of building ludicrously huge stations, such as this one) I tend to build a 2-3000 module HQ for manufacturing terraforming materials, I generally don't directly assign any miners to it. Instead I build up a network of mining stations which gather resources from pretty much the entire map & funnel them all towards HQ using the above approach. No particular reason why this approach wouldn't also work for other wares too.

By the way I'm absolutely fine with the current build speed for stations. Would not want it to be changed.

[LameFox]

I don't really see the point. The game doesn't need the player to make megastations, they're just not actually necessary for any task it presents us with. It allows you to build to great excess if you feel like doing that, but there's no particular need to support it explicitly.

Doing so might even create some unrealistic expectations amongst players, who will find that having built such a thing their performance anywhere near it is horribly degraded, and that they have nothing meaningful to actually do with it. These complaints arise enough already...

I’ve heard more complaints about trader searching for trade causing performance issues where mega station IS the solution as it eliminates trade of intermediaries.

Can't say I've had that problem or really heard much of it either. I guess conceivably it could occur if you are already up against the limits of the CPU and/or are trying to build an extremely vast economy.

Much more of the complaints I see though (spread across here, steam, and reddit) are that a) people have nothing to do with their oversized economy. They build it, and can easily defeat everything the game throws at them, and end up wondering what the point was and asking for more end game content. That might be one of the most prolific long term complaints I see that is not about how the AI ships fly.

Less often, but still present, b) the way large stations or battles bring their FPS to a crawl, leading them to spend most of their time managing via the map in some remote area.

In some ways it seems Egosoft may have painted themselves into a corner here, because they allow people to trivialise game content in ways which impact performance, and then when people want less trivial content, it's a hard problem to solve in a way that remains playable and doesn't generate further complaints. The OP complains about what he sees as an artificial time gate on construction, but I would suggest that part of why it's there is to serve as a soft cap on behaviours that the game isn't really prepared for.

[Sutopia]

I don't really see the point. The game doesn't need the player to make megastations, they're just not actually necessary for any task it presents us with. It allows you to build to great excess if you feel like doing that, but there's no particular need to support it explicitly.

Doing so might even create some unrealistic expectations amongst players, who will find that having built such a thing their performance anywhere near it is horribly degraded, and that they have nothing meaningful to actually do with it. These complaints arise enough already...

I’ve heard more complaints about trader searching for trade causing performance issues where mega station IS the solution as it eliminates trade of intermediaries.

Can't say I've had that problem or really heard much of it either. I guess conceivably it could occur if you are already up against the limits of the CPU and/or are trying to build an extremely vast economy.

Much more of the complaints I see though (spread across here, steam, and reddit) are that a) people have nothing to do with their oversized economy. They build it, and can easily defeat everything the game throws at them, and end up wondering what the point was and asking for more end game content. That might be one of the most prolific long term complaints I see that is not about how the AI ships fly.

Less often, but still present, b) the way large stations or battles bring their FPS to a crawl, leading them to spend most of their time managing via the map in some remote area.

In some ways it seems Egosoft may have painted themselves into a corner here, because they allow people to trivialise game content in ways which impact performance, and then when people want less trivial content, it's a hard problem to solve in a way that remains playable and doesn't generate further complaints. The OP complains about what he sees as an artificial time gate on construction, but I would suggest that part of why it's there is to serve as a soft cap on behaviours that the game isn't really prepared for.

I've never had issue with large station causing lowered FPS, it's more often the amount of high attention ships around said station causing the issue. Correlation is not causation. This is easily testable by station designer where copy pasting a few 1000 piece station still allow the game running smooth as butter. One easy workaround is to use large ships exclusively as their larger capacity means less ship needed overall.

Please do not try to frame this as un unsolvable problem as it never was. There is first and foremost no good reason to stop a player power creeping as not all players are e-sport gamer to solo a few dozen Ks with a single katana. Throwing enough at a problem is a legit solution, and people love X4 because of this. It's a sandbox after all, just like you can't tell someone playing minecraft not make a spawn tower to farm drops and exp. You look like one of those people that if put in charge will do everything you can to take away fun from player and force player to play a certain way.

If the game really intend you to be stuck with small stations there wouldn't be large habitation bonus in first place.