Cutlass and Odachi: Not a good start for the new generation of ships in X4

[Caedes91]

Both ships have pretty models, but sadly, that's all they have going for them. And they are restricted to their own, unique equipment, further limiting their usefulness.

Cutlass:

The Cutlass, unlike what the encyclopedia may indicate, is not a cheap ship to be fielded in large numbers. The HEPT's and EM-guns are good weapons, but they are not that strong. And it certainly doesn't help, that ship only has two slots available. Therefore it neither performs well in a bomber- nor in an interceptor role. A multipurpose fighter is definitely out of question.
They roughly cost as much as the Moreya, but its stats are more akin to the weaker Split and Avarice fighters.

The Moreya with its 4 weapon slots and overall strong stats for its class beats the Cutlass straight out of the water. It is second to none in its class and this is of course reflected in its material cost. But the Cutlass doesn't even come close in any regard, especially because it still cannot equip engines and shields above MK1. One dev presumably "poked" at the office in Egosoft back during the 7.10 beta, but since then no further mention, if the staff are willing to do anything about it. Given, that patch 7.10 has already released, I doubt, that MK2 and MK3 tiers for the cutlass will be coming.
And in terms of firepower, the Moreya easily surpasses the Cutlass due to having double the weapon mounts. Plus it can equip all weapons except the Terran Proton Barrage and Meson stream, which the Cutlass can't either. Therefore the Moreya can be outfitted for all purposes leading to it outperforming the Cutlass in both IS- as well OOS- combat.
The Cutlass is only ahead, if somehow all you have access to, are vanilla pulse lasers or bolt. Another aspect is, that other light fighters like the Mamba or nova for example, are less costly to mass produce and replace.

To be competitive, the Cutlass at least needs 2 more weapon mounts. Faster engines don't matter that much, but it also needs more shield slots. They just die much faster compared to other fighters.
As of now, I struggle to find a use for it other than being a "show-ship" to pose and screen cap in pretty fleet formations. Even when compared to the Takoba, it falls behind.


Odachi:

It has more hull than a Katana or Kuraokami, which I consider to be the most similar to the Odachi. This in theory is always helpful against explosion damage from capital ships and stations. The AI still loves crashing into them.
But it shares a glaring problem with the Cutlass, that other basegame- and most previous DLC-ships don't have and that is the lack of options.
The Katana has the same number of weapon- and turret slots, but it has access to all weapons except Boron, making it versatile and able to excel in any role. With greater speed and possible instant travel drive when running Terran combat engines, it also fits as a better patrol ship than the Odachi. The Kuraokami on the other hand offers one more weapon slot.
Terran and Split engines are both superior to the Frontier engines.
The Odachi can also only equip two EM-Turrets, but as with most turret gameplay, they are just ass. It doesn't carry over the good bullet velocity of the regular EM-gun, instead has lower damage output and slightly slower rate of fire. Like most turrets, it fails against absolutely everything. Higher DPS values when compared to average m-turrets mean nothing, if you can't hit the target and most of all, with only two of them.

This is also why the Sapporo sucks so hard, as you cannot equip any other turret from the basegame on it. What prevents it from being a resource sink or tax write-off, are the barrage missiles unique to the ship. Of course once they run out and without an auxiliary or equipment dock in ranage, the ship is rendered useless. Outside of maybe being a mobile advanced sattelite. So much for a ship, that is supposedly a modified deep space explorer, operating in uncharted enemy space behind the frontlines.

Sadly, Argon M-flak and L-plasma for capitals still remains the only meta to this day.


Final thoughts:

These ships are a step in the right direction in terms of aesthetics. They are sleek and appealing, the form looks plausible and in itself logical. Nobody plays space games for ugly ships. Star citizen wouldn't rake in hundreds of millions, if their ships looked like theseus, Nimchas, bolos or all the VIG fighters.
Egosoft finally started to adopt a new design philosophy, by ditching the stupidly exposed critical parts like shield generators and copy-pasted engines and downsizing the comically large weapons. I hope that in the future we get more serious looking military ships instead of the current ships like Kukri and Gladius, which feel like bad jokes. Apparently Terrans don't take the Xenon seriously anymore. Otherwise I can't see why they field luxury taxis with panorama cockpits against these merciless killing machines.

However the looks cannot be the only thing they have, and these ships can not remain as underperforming as they are now. If you nerf the next gen ships on purpose, so they don't make the legacy ships (everything before KE) obsolete, then STOP IT! Learn from the example of Helldivers, where they overbalance every weapon, make them feel and perform all samey, which ruins the fun as the result. If the upcoming ships are part of DLC, then don't delibaretly make them bad, just to balance them with the current ships, which if anything, need buffs. Don't devalue ships I pay real money for.
I want both good looking and well performing ships. If other players want weak ships, then they just shouldn't use them or equip them with lower tier weapons themselves. Period.

Lastly, don't ditch the player's options to outfit ships however they want. Modularity is one of the core aspects of this game and what sets the player apart from the AI-factions. Taking it away makes obtaining blueprints useless, if you cannot equip anything other than what you allow for that specific ship.
I feel so stupid opening the ship-building menu, then have the game make me click through the compenents and choose them, when there is no choice in the first place!

[Sutopia]

"even comparing to takoba"? takoba is one of the best fighter, anything not moreya falls pale in one way or another.

Lack of options? Astrid, erlking and entire boron lineup are almost equally so. It's been a problem since ToA.

All the comparison you're listing are considered top of the line choices, or meta even.
Just to be clear, it's not a nerf if it's a joke from the beginning, like the airburst rocket.
If your only intention is to use best of everything, nothing will change in the end, you're just doing meta hopping.

[Nanook]

...
I feel so stupid opening the ship-building menu, then have the game make me click through the compenents and choose them, when there is no choice in the first place!

Does it really? Just use the drop-down loadout menu and pick the high option. Simple, no?

Those ships are supposed to be special, one of a kind, but Egosoft provided blueprints so that they could be reproduced if they get destroyed. I really don't think they were ever envisioned as mainstays of a player's fleets.

[LameFox]

I don't think these ships are really an issue by themselves. They are old, relict designs in the lore, and nobody but us even uses them.

On the other hand, I do think the game's overall loadout variety is low, simultaneously in that there aren't a lot of things to choose from, and many of those that exist aren't really competitive, and there's often little to no benefit to mix them in a single loadout. Assuming they ever wanted to change that, mixing design philosophies where some ships can slot any module and others have their own graphics for turrets, engines, shields, etc. might make it harder to do. But it's a bit late to avoid that now. Maybe going ahead it would be better if each ship has a set of graphics for different types of thing (e.g. a missile tube, a multi-barrel weapon, a laser, a cannon...) and then slotting in any weapon just selects the appropriate one.

[vvvvvvvv]

have the game make me click through the compenents and choose them, when there is no choice in the first place!

Uh, just select high preset from menu.

[rudi_pioneer]

I wouldn’t even say they are right step in design because they look like copies from star citizen instead of ships from X universe

[xant]

Agreed with your take on this, especially the modularity.

The issues, as I understand it, seem to come from a change in 3d modeling software between ToA and KE. That makes all ships and all equipment prior to KE incompatible with anything that comes with, and after, KE. That's why Terran ships and weapons from CoH are completely incompatible with Terran ships and weapons from TL.

As it's too time-consuming to bring all the older ships and their equipment up to date, and also too time-consuming to create and maintain two separate version of old and new equipment/weapons for both types of ships (old and new), and since that time could be spent on making new ships and new equipment, we'll have to live with it.

That means that there will be no old turrets/weapons on new ships and vice versa. Limits the potential uses of all ships, but that's where we stand. You can read more on this here.

We can expect that to change in X5, whenever that will be.

[Duncaroos]

I really don't think they were ever envisioned as mainstays of a player's fleets.

I get that the Timelines DLC is not really meant for universe additions, but there should have been some flexibility on weapon or shield selection. An idea could be to add some research options to the PHQ to "improve" these ships to be capable of mounting some (not necessarily all) current weapons. Maybe even put it behind a ship mod you have to install at a wharf/shipyard/equip dock

[vvvvvvvv]

Agreed with your take on this, especially the modularity.

The issues, as I understand it, seem to come from a change in 3d modeling software between ToA and KE. That makes all ships and all equipment prior to KE incompatible with anything that comes with, and after, KE. That's why Terran ships and weapons from CoH are completely incompatible with Terran ships and weapons from TL.

It is not modeling software, it is gun sizes. It was mentioned on reddit somewhere. Modeling software doesn't matter, all ships become polygonal soup for the engine when exported.

[xant]

It is not modeling software, it is gun sizes. It was mentioned on reddit somewhere. Modeling software doesn't matter, all ships become polygonal soup for the engine when exported.

It's literally the main reason mentioned in that reddit thread:

The old weapons are created in a different 3d software, scaling them would mean creating a copy in the different software and maintaining both versions at the same time, which is... not great.

Additional hurdle was the change of 3d software starting with boron dlc. Only a few artist still have a license of the old software and i would rather not create new assets in the old software. Therefore all old assets would need to be exported to the other software and re setup - its just a lot of work for very little gain. I hope that we just get more new ships over time and with them more weapons. Maybe then we could also allow cross mounting them (between all ships starting from boron dlc).

He also mentions that the old ships follow a different design philosophy, with those big blocky weapons and surface elements. Newer equipment doesn't fit the old ships, in addition to the change in modeling software.

[vvvvvvvv]

It's literally the main reason mentioned in that reddit thread:

Details sort of matter.

Wording "they can't do it because of software" sort of implies that it is *impossible* to do. Reddit thread says that it is possible, but annoying to do and they chose not to do it, as there's little gain. Not quite the same thing.

"Design philosophy" is "gun sizes" I mentioned.

[xant]

Wording "they can't do it because of software" sort of implies that it is *impossible* to do. Reddit thread says that it is possible, but annoying to do and they chose not to do it, as there's little gain. Not quite the same thing.

Did you even read my original post here? For someone who claims that the exact wording is important, and details matter, you just read half of what I wrote and misinterpreted it in a very careless manner, only to say that I said something that I clearly did not.

I didn't imply anything, I said it as I meant it. Better yet, I made myself clear on how I meant it. Here, for you, my exact words:

"it's too time-consuming to bring all the older ships and their equipment up to date" and "too time-consuming to create and maintain two separate version of old and new equipment/weapons for both types of ships (old and new)"

Where exactly do you see the word "impossible", or any word indicating such? I used the word "too time-consuming", which is a word that describes a process that is not feasible based on the time it requires. Not impossible, but not feasible. There, I even colored it for you, so that you don't overlook my exact words this time around.

There's nothing more to say here.

"Design philosophy" is "gun sizes" I mentioned.

Do you misinterpret my posts on purpose? Or did you not read the original reddit posts? It's not just gun sizes, it's also turret design (compare the Odachi turrets with the vanilla ones) and placement of surface elements (went to interior components), like shields and engines. The old ships are blocky for that reason, while newer ships (KE and TL) do not. Those are two vastly different design philosophies, it's not just the size of the guns.

Please, read those posts more carefully.

[Nanook]

Ok, let's tone it down a bit and keep things civil. Don't want to have to lock the thread.

[Hawkseyez]

all ridiculous takes. the Odachi and Sapporo don't need other options. they are beautiful and deadly just the way they are. i swear ppl complain to complain. can be no unique ships then? all ships have to be modular and same? wouldn't want you to adjust your playing style or actually get good at something like fleet composition or tactics to utilize these ships. smh. spirng free the Odachi in a swarm of fighters. see it obliterate everything. the Sapporo is unmatched in its capabilities . isn't a better support vessel in the game. wtf are you even talking about. not everything has to be an Asgard with big gun. you're all prolly the kind of doods who complain about Teladi ships. is nothing wrong with those either. learn to play. spend 5 mins to learn how to actually utilize a fleet, instead of taking that 5 mins to post on here. you can't understand how foolish you all look. smh.

[CBJ]

Digging up an 8 month old thread just to stir the pot was not a good move. Don't do it again.