Why does the encyclopedia lack so much data?

[dayang]

I'm in the middle of reverse engineering drag (ships have Forward Drag, Reverse Drag, Yaw Drag, Pitch Drag and Roll Drag... not that this is ever detailed) but I'm beginning to notice how there's more and more information missing from the encyclopedia.

The Chassis is missing things like

Length, Width, Height

Drag... this is just flat out missing. This is compounded because there are many different variants of drag:
- Forward Drag
- Reverse Drag
- Vertical Drag
- Horizontal Drag
- Yaw Drag
- Pitch Drag
- Roll Drag

The Mass Tonnage is inaccurate and the Max Speed is inaccurate.

As far as engines are concerned, I'm not entirely sure what Max Hull Integrity is supposed to be doing as it doesn't appear to have any affect on the chassis hull.

Then missing from the thrusters is:
Roll Thrust
Sluggishness

Also does anyone have the formula for how Yaw (deg/s) is worked out? The number I'm currently getting doesn't match the Ship Statistics screen at all.

[Koizuki]

Does this page on Roguey's site not help?

I've seen you on a quest to decode drag recently it seems, but I must have missed what triggered it; Are these sites we normally use for comparisons giving wrong values, or are the in-game numbers not matching up to expectations, or something?

As far as the encyclopedia goes, I imagine most of it is "flavor" text and some basic numbers for casual use, rather than technical stat-sheet level data.
For engine hull, I think this is for the fact that they can be destroyed on L/XL ships, so they have their own hull rating for that purpose. S/M can't be destroyed, but for simplicity's sake they probably still have a number there, and it's just ignored in practice.

[Captain_Canard]

There's drag in the vacuum of space? I get that the game assigns arbitrarily speed limits (there's a mod that removes these that I'd like to try someday), but I don't think this would be classified as drag in the encyclopedia if listed, especially since you can drift forever at the top speed using FA-off. What you call drag, I call force of a given thruster times mass of your ship, AKA acceleration. Though in theory that means a full cargo ship should accelerate slower than an empty one, which I don't think is the case in X4 (but it is in Space Engineers).

[dayang]

Does this page on Roguey's site not help?

I've seen you on a quest to decode drag recently it seems, but I must have missed what triggered it; Are these sites we normally use for comparisons giving wrong values, or are the in-game numbers not matching up to expectations, or something?

As far as the encyclopedia goes, I imagine most of it is "flavor" text and some basic numbers for casual use, rather than technical stat-sheet level data.
For engine hull, I think this is for the fact that they can be destroyed on L/XL ships, so they have their own hull rating for that purpose. S/M can't be destroyed, but for simplicity's sake they probably still have a number there, and it's just ignored in practice.

It does, and I've been relying on it quite a bit. Drag I've worked out. I simply re-arrange the formula to solve for drag instead this isn't great as due to how many drag variables there are I'm concerned about missing one, but it was through this that I discovered the speed being reported was inaccurate. Speed = Thrust / Drag. The same goes for Yaw I assume, except this would still be in m/s and not the deg/s as the ship statistics report.

There's drag in the vacuum of space? I get that the game assigns arbitrarily speed limits (there's a mod that removes these that I'd like to try someday), but I don't think this would be classified as drag in the encyclopedia if listed, especially since you can drift forever at the top speed using FA-off. What you call drag, I call force of a given thruster times mass of your ship, AKA acceleration. Though in theory that means a full cargo ship should accelerate slower than an empty one, which I don't think is the case in X4 (but it is in Space Engineers).

There is 'drag' in x4 space . Magic Space Dust apparently. I more or less get why they're using drag, it makes some calculations simpler and solves some otherwise tricky concepts such as range and speed of getting around a map that would make it harder to plot certain elements of the game potentially making it more challenging and less fun. Drag affects Maximum Speed, Strafe, Rotation, Boost Speed and Travel speed. The last time I checked, Flight Assist doesn't allow you to fly forever, drag still applies but it's at a lower rate. Unfortunately you cannot exceed maximum speed by keeping your foot on the accelerator implying that drag is very much still a factor.

[Alan Phipps]

@ Captain_Canard: "Though in theory that means a full cargo ship should accelerate slower than an empty one, which I don't think is the case in X4"

In X4 ships with cargo certainly decelerate slower than the same ship empty. Fill the cargohold of a fast M ship and then fly it and see how quickly you can stop it from full traveldrive compared to when it is empty.

Edit: Corrected attribution.

[dayang]

@ dayang: "Though in theory that means a full cargo ship should accelerate slower than an empty one, which I don't think is the case in X4"

In X4 ships with cargo certainly decelerate slower than the same ship empty. Fill the cargohold of your M ship and then see how quickly you can stop it from full traveldrive compared to when it is empty.

Wasn't me who said that.

I remember playing Vegastrike which took cargo to weight to a whole new level put too much in your cargohold in that game and ho boy piloting was much more of a challenge.

[Alan Phipps]

Sorry, corrected.

[Captain_Canard]

@ Captain_Canard: "Though in theory that means a full cargo ship should accelerate slower than an empty one, which I don't think is the case in X4"

In X4 ships with cargo certainly decelerate slower than the same ship empty. Fill the cargohold of a fast M ship and then fly it and see how quickly you can stop it from full traveldrive compared to when it is empty.

Cool! I'll give that a try. If this is the case (no reason to doubt you, but I still want to try it), then that's a good reason for me not to carry around cargo in my medium corvettes and gunboats - usually "spoils of war" that I scoop up and forget about. I'll take whatever extra maneuverability I can in those.

Regarding drag, I stick by my claim that there is no drag in this game, but if someone shows me some XML from the game's files that actually defines a resistive force other than inertia, then I'll concede. Until then, there is no drag in the vacuum of space, just "speed governors" like I had on my moped to keep it from going too fast.

[vvvvvvvv]

@ Captain_Canard: "Though in theory that means a full cargo ship should accelerate slower than an empty one, which I don't think is the case in X4"

In X4 ships with cargo certainly decelerate slower than the same ship empty. Fill the cargohold of a fast M ship and then fly it and see how quickly you can stop it from full traveldrive compared to when it is empty.

Cool! I'll give that a try. If this is the case (no reason to doubt you, but I still want to try it), then that's a good reason for me not to carry around cargo in my medium corvettes and gunboats - usually "spoils of war" that I scoop up and forget about. I'll take whatever extra maneuverability I can in those.

Regarding drag, I stick by my claim that there is no drag in this game, but if someone shows me some XML from the game's files that actually defines a resistive force other than inertia, then I'll concede. Until then, there is no drag in the vacuum of space, just "speed governors" like I had on my moped to keep it from going too fast.

One of the tutorials mention specifically that loaded ships take longer to brake and accelerate when they have full cargo. Actually... that probably wasn't a tutorial, but one of those Timelines mining missions.

The thing is I'm not sure the game actually properly handles mass. Because ships do not land on planet, cargo is defined by volume, and different wares would have different mass per volume. Basically if you fill cargo with uranium it'll be very heavy. If you fill it with food, it'll be significantly less heavy. For example.... 1 m3 of Uranium is roughly 19000 kg, 1 m3 of rocks would be 1600..3500 kg (that's for ore), water is 1000 kg, and so on. However, goods do not have mass, only volume.

Ships, however, do have mass and engines specify thrust in newtons. That value, however, somehow translates to maximum speed.

[dayang]

@ Captain_Canard: "Though in theory that means a full cargo ship should accelerate slower than an empty one, which I don't think is the case in X4"

In X4 ships with cargo certainly decelerate slower than the same ship empty. Fill the cargohold of a fast M ship and then fly it and see how quickly you can stop it from full traveldrive compared to when it is empty.

Cool! I'll give that a try. If this is the case (no reason to doubt you, but I still want to try it), then that's a good reason for me not to carry around cargo in my medium corvettes and gunboats - usually "spoils of war" that I scoop up and forget about. I'll take whatever extra maneuverability I can in those.

Regarding drag, I stick by my claim that there is no drag in this game, but if someone shows me some XML from the game's files that actually defines a resistive force other than inertia, then I'll concede. Until then, there is no drag in the vacuum of space, just "speed governors" like I had on my moped to keep it from going too fast.

Code: Select all

<macros>
<macro name="ship_arg_s_fighter_02_a_macro" class="ship_s">
<component ref="ship_arg_s_fighter_02" />
<properties>
<identification name="{20101,11902}" basename="{20101,11901}" description="{20101,11912}" variation="{20111,1101}" shortvariation="{20111,1103}" icon="ship_s_fight_01" />
<software>
<software ware="software_dockmk2" compatible="1" />
<software ware="software_flightassistmk1" default="1" />
<software ware="software_scannerlongrangemk1" default="1" />
<software ware="software_scannerlongrangemk2" compatible="1" />
<software ware="software_scannerobjectmk1" default="1" />
<software ware="software_scannerobjectmk2" compatible="1" />
<software ware="software_targetmk1" default="1" />
<software ware="software_trademk1" compatible="1" />
</software>
<storage missile="20" />
<hull max="1800" />
<secrecy level="2" />
<purpose primary="fight" />
<people capacity="1" />
<sounds>
<shipdetail ref="shipdetail_ship_02" />
</sounds>
<physics mass="3.772">
<inertia pitch="0.451" yaw="0.451" roll="0.361" />
<drag forward="2.193" reverse="8.772" horizontal="3.381" vertical="3.381" pitch="2.585" yaw="2.585" roll="2.585" />
</physics>
<thruster tags="small" />
<ship type="interceptor" />
<sound_occlusion inside="0.5" />
</properties>
<connections>
<connection ref="con_cockpit">
<macro ref="cockpit_gen_virtual_01_macro" connection="ship" />
</connection>
<connection ref="con_dock_xs">
<macro ref="dock_gen_xs_ship_01_macro" connection="Connection_component" />
</connection>
<connection ref="con_storage01">
<macro ref="storage_arg_s_fighter_02_a_macro" connection="ShipConnection" />
</connection>
</connections>
</macro>
</macros>

[dayang]

One of the tutorials mention specifically that loaded ships take longer to brake and accelerate when they have full cargo. Actually... that probably wasn't a tutorial, but one of those Timelines mining missions.

The thing is I'm not sure the game actually properly handles mass. Because ships do not land on planet, cargo is defined by volume, and different wares would have different mass per volume. Basically if you fill cargo with uranium it'll be very heavy. If you fill it with food, it'll be significantly less heavy. For example.... 1 m3 of Uranium is roughly 19000 kg, 1 m3 of rocks would be 1600..3500 kg (that's for ore), water is 1000 kg, and so on. However, goods do not have mass, only volume.

Ships, however, do have mass and engines specify thrust in newtons. That value, however, somehow translates to maximum speed.

This is because of the 'drag factor'. Max Speed = Thrust / Drag

As far as 'cargo mass' is concerned, I agree that the game doesn't really handle it. I think the way they get around it is that mass is generally standardized per volume so 1m3 of uranium is the same as 1m3 of Medical packs, even though you can shove more of one in the area than the other. It's a simplified way of doing it and I can understand why the devs chose this route.

[Captain_Canard]

...evidence...

Okay, I tap the mat and move my credulity from you to Egosoft, LOL.

Oi, Egosoft! [facepalm facepalm facepalm]

So what happens if you set all those "drag" numbers to zero? Infinite speed, I assume? Hopefully acceleration remains the same.

[dayang]

I ran the number, 0 is not going to work, because Thrust / 0 = NaN. However, if we take the Elite Sentinel and slap an ARG Combat Mk3 on it, this will give it 561 kN of Forward Thrust.

The Forward Drag Factor is 2.382165605 giving a Max Speed of 235.5m/s. Now if we change the drag factor to... 0.0001 the Max Speed changes to 5610000 m/s. Acceleration is based on Mass not drag so naturally won't change.

[Captain_Canard]

I ran the number, 0 is not going to work, because Thrust / 0 = NaN. However, if we take the Elite Sentinel and slap an ARG Combat Mk3 on it, this will give it 561 kN of Forward Thrust.

The Forward Drag Factor is 2.382165605 giving a Max Speed of 235.5m/s. Now if we change the drag factor to... 0.0001 the Max Speed changes to 5610000 m/s. Acceleration is based on Mass not drag so naturally won't change.

Is thrust defined in a separate macro that is tied to the actual thrusters module? If so, does thrust vary based on direction? I've never been a fan of the idea that a ship goes in reverse at a fraction of the speed it can go forward (because of my deep-founded belief that "drag" in space is anathema), but I would expect ships to accelerate more slowly in reverse (or any other direction except forward) since the "big" thrusters are on the back of the ship.

My dream is to someday remove arbitrary speed limits and replace them all with a universal single speed limit (for the sake of not breaking the game), say 1000m/s non-travel drive, but I still want different acceleration profiles to differentiate ships, not just per ship, but per axis as well (again, because vertical thrusters are tiny compared to main forward thrusters). I'm hoping the variables will allow for this.

[Koizuki]

Is thrust defined in a separate macro that is tied to the actual thrusters module? If so, does thrust vary based on direction? I've never been a fan of the idea that a ship goes in reverse at a fraction of the speed it can go forward (because of my deep-founded belief that "drag" in space is anathema), but I would expect ships to accelerate more slowly in reverse (or any other direction except forward) since the "big" thrusters are on the back of the ship.

You can check yourself pretty easily, as according to the Roguey's site I linked earlier, all of these macros are contained within 01.cab that you can just extract using the X-Tools.

Thrusters define thrust in a few directions governing the stats that actually change when you switch thrusters -- Strafe, Pitch, Yaw, and Roll. That's all it has. Everything else is derived from the drag and mass data defined in each ship.

Here's the relevant line of the S Mk3 Thrusters (they're short either way):

Code: Select all

COMBAT:
<thrust strafe="414" pitch="324" yaw="153" roll="378" />

ALL AROUND:
<thrust strafe="238" pitch="211" yaw="227" roll="291" />

Similarly, the Engine macros mainly specify the thrust and boost characteristics, and the rest are derived again using the stats of the ship they're equipped to.
Here's the ARG S Combat Mk3:

Code: Select all

      <boost duration="10" thrust="8" attack="0.25" release="1" />
      <travel charge="0" thrust="12" attack="15" release="10" />
      <thrust forward="561" reverse="850" />

You can see there both a forward and reverse thrust power defined, which then is further modified by the ship's drag value, such as with the Elite Vanguard here:

Code: Select all

      <physics mass="3.772">
        <inertia pitch="0.451" yaw="0.451" roll="0.361" />
        <drag forward="2.193" reverse="8.772" horizontal="3.381" vertical="3.381" pitch="2.585" yaw="2.585" roll="2.585" />
      </physics>

You can see that the "reverse" drag is 4 times higher than "forward" drag, so even if the forward/reverse thrust was the same (which it isn't, for the ARG S Combat Mk3,) reversing would be at a quarter the speed of going forward.

I do feel like we're heading toward the realm of the Scripting and Modding forum, though.

[Captain_Canard]

I do feel like we're heading toward the realm of the Scripting and Modding forum, though.

That's my bad. To bring it back on topic, I do wonder if these details are left out of the encyclopedia because Egosoft recognizes that there is no actual "drag" in space, but they use it for gameplay purposes to differentiate ships and force a certain flight model. In other words, maybe it's a "fudge factor" they'd rather not admit to.