[#1441]Station suddenly refuses to trade - explained

[ahostofissues]

Was working fine, now all traders assigned to station show "failed". Was the first station built in this game, so has been there operating as expected for a very long while. No issues. Now, suddenly, every single trader assigned to station has “failed” orders state, and nothing I do seems to change that.

6.2, english, “runner” VIG start

Station: "Tech Center (ILW-609)

Verified:
station has wares to sell
there are buyers nearby
stock is above what's needed
no blacklist on nearby sectors on station
no blacklist on nearby station on traders
4-star trader

example: plenty of water, buyers nearby, not used for anything on the station. There are 7 traders, and a half a dozen available wares on the station. No trader “finds” a trade for any ware.

Save game:
https://file.io/zcwwSngXACmU

Edit: additional info:

I have tried:

- Removing and re-assigning all traders
- Removing and re-assigning manager
- Manually assigning trades to traders, to try to get control script to re-assess or reset. Trade works, but then default station trade behavior resumes and Failed Order for every ship

[Xenon_Slayer]

In that save, the manager is assigned to the station but en-route. They'll get there in a few minutes and then things operate as normal. You mentioned that you tried reassigning the manager. Was that before making this save?

[ahostofissues]

The issue appeared *BEFORE* I replaced manager.

[Edit: further reply with updated save, where you can watch problem happen in real time.]

I obviously tried several things to fix the problem before submitting bug report. So save you have is after experiments, and after re-assigning original station manager.

The manager that was assigned when the problem appeared was the original station manger assigned when station was built. I had not changed/altered manager when problem appeared.

So sorry for the confusion about manager being in transit in save. Was trying to restore original conditions before sending you the save.

But, again, problem happened BEFORE I changed manager (trying to test that as a fix).

If you wait, I expect problem to re-appear once manager arrives. He is the original manager.

[ahostofissues]

Updated save. Problem in progress.

Manager on station (as verified by re-appearance in Personnel Management screen). Removed and re-assigned all traders as Trade for Commander.

Two have already failed. If you sit an watch, the remaining traders all fail to find any trade, one by one... Takes about 5 minutes.

Save file:
https://file.io/W3CHJlrAhrMl


Added info:

1. Before creating this new save, I seemed to have some luck with assigning a different, lower-star manager for the station -- didn't do testing to try to verify whether that was causal or coincidental.

2. After traders failed, I left game running for another 5 minutes, just to see if maybe I was wrong about manager still being in transit. No trader ever appeared to get a trade assignment. (Manager was coming from a ship in the same sector, so I'm assuming there's no way he could still be in transit.)

[ahostofissues]

Changed manager, waited a while... didn't seem to have any effect. Traders still sitting there with no trade orders.

[Ketraar]

So I have had a look at the new save and the reason why your traders are stuck is that the station has marked Quantum Tubes to be critical, as it doesn't have enough to continue production. Since you set the Station in Heretics End to only buy from your own stations and set max buy price at 306, the traders don't have any sources and thus fail. Setting the buy price to maximum (its internal buy so it wont really cost any credits) allows assigned traders to fill the need and fly to Watchful Gaze to buy Quantum Tubes.

Side note, in the Watchful Gaze station you have set Quantum Tubes to be bought only by you but have the sell order without restrictions, this is not wrong as such, just that if your other station is relying on internal production, you may want to restrict selling to your faction only too. If you want to sell surplus and make sure your stations get enough wares, I set up a small trading station that only buy from my production at a low price, then have the production only sell to me and use the automatic pricing. Setting stations that need the ware to buy at max price guarantees they get supplied first and the trading station only buy when stock is high enough. Hope this made sense.

MFG

Ketraar

[ahostofissues]

I don’t understand why that means the traders won’t just sell something else.

There are plenty of things for sale at the station the traders could be doing instead when they can’t find a trade for quantum tubes.

Is the station trading logic actually so fragile that the inability to buy one ware will completely prevent the sale of any other ware on the station?

Really? That’s seriously how it’s implemented?

If so, good grief. That’s awful.

On other issue: thanks for the comment on the inter-station trade situation. I’m aware of it. It’s been working fine until traders on “receiver” station went into total-failure mode.

It’s a side effect of the complete lack of support for “internal supply” vs “external dumping of excess” as a concept in X4. Jumping through hoops (your external trading station) to overcome this deficiency in design of the game mechanics. With the lack of “my combined stations supplying each other” as a first-class concept, these sort of hacked-together workarounds become necessary. As mentioned, I’m aware of it and it was working fine (due to lack of local buyers for Quantum Tubes) until the consumer station’s traders fell off a cliff due, apparently, to the fragile nature of the station trader decision scripts.

So… Thanks for confirming it’s not a bug. I really do appreciate your time, despite not feeling good about the result.

But I’m having a hard time convincing myself the trader behavior here is “fine”. Not being able to make one trade for one ware locking down every trader on the station, for all wares, seems… not good.

[rudi_pioneer]

Is the station trading logic actually so fragile that the inability to buy one ware will completely prevent the sale of any other ware on the station?

Really?

Station manager won't ask for other wares if some are deemed critical. I'm not sure if that timeouts at some point, but in my experience, it stays like that. Something to check for once in a while if station gets stuck. Explanation above is great to work with this.

[ahostofissues]

Is the station trading logic actually so fragile that the inability to buy one ware will completely prevent the sale of any other ware on the station?

Really?

Station manager won't ask for other wares if some are deemed critical. I'm not sure if that timeouts at some point, but in my experience, it stays like that. Something to check for once in a while if station gets stuck. Explanation above is great to work with this.

So then, basically, “Yes, not being able to get one ware for a station can and will cripple every trader assigned to that station.” Taking out not only that station’s flow but that of every other station that’s depending on getting (other) supplies from it.

Ok.

That’s a great design.

So much for the option of leaving a factory idle when you don’t currently need its product. (And yes, I know about taking a factory offline; not the point. The issue is trader behavior and the need to over-supply to avoid having to micro manage and constantly check that station hasn’t become broken while I wasn’t looking.)

X4 is a great game, but the “man, that’s just messed up” implementation details are killing it for me. I think I’m done as an Egosoft customer (no big loss, I know, I’m just one person… but I’m a person who bought everything they released in a bundle, then all DLC, and now probably will never buy another product from them).

But, be that as it may, at least I was able to get an answer.

[rudi_pioneer]

It would be nice notification showed when this happens. Ships already have it so there’s chance stations might too.

[ahostofissues]

Is the station trading logic actually so fragile that the inability to buy one ware will completely prevent the sale of any other ware on the station?

Really?

Station manager won't ask for other wares if some are deemed critical. I'm not sure if that timeouts at some point, but in my experience, it stays like that. Something to check for once in a while if station gets stuck. Explanation above is great to work with this.

Build an additional entire station, otherwise unneeded, and then buy a fleet of traders to support it… all to manage “sell what I don’t need” as a concept. And repeat that everywhere in every region around the galaxy that has stations that produce excess wares (which all stations do because of Egosoft’s mismatch between A’s output and B’s input for modules)…

That’s not what I’d call “great to work with this.”

I’d certainly call it “a clever workaround that solves the issue” yes, but it’s a clever way to solve a clear problem with station trading mechanics, not a “great” thing to have to do as a player.

Again, I’m starting to feel that as much as I enjoy it, X4 is just not a good game (at least for me). Too many required workarounds for dumb problems.

[mcailleaux]

Hi

I have this problem in my stations when i have drone component, smart ship or missiles resources required, all traders only try to find those resources

If you are in this case, try to resupply those resources by yourself

You can see in your ships order what resources they realy try to find and in that case, only resupply resources appear, not trade product or resources