The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

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Tomonor
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The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by Tomonor »

We all know it. Highways.

The invention of the Jonferson Space Dynamics Division Corporation [Jonferco] which first coined it, deployed its first prototype in system Albion, and ultimately sold the Highway schematics to different races before the Jump Gate Shutdown event took place. Its utility cannot be wronged, even by the very players outside the fictional universe of X. However its implementation can be criticised, and even now we are seeing the third major public iteration of them in-game with the first two taking place in its birth-game, X-Rebirth. It's not perfect. It's a ways of transportation that renders many other types of drives near useless as long as we are taking into account its general presence/area/direction only. It's so effective, yet near game-breaking. The paradox is placed upon multiple layers. They are broken, but not. They are balanced, but not. People like them, but not. You can live with them, but cannot. Etc.

So, I'm proposing a third major rework for them, but I would also like to hear what other people think, and how would they rework them - keeping in mind that removing them entirely is not possible.


Let's examine their current form, shall we? Just to be clear, when we speak of highways, two individual transportation systems can be taken into account: regular Highways and Superhighways. Superhighways do have their own problems, but I want to focus on the regular Highways in this thread. So, the Highways currently are:
GENERAL OUTLOOK
-They are two dimensional blue lines, acting like a single track with lots of marging space for a single ship
-They are usually bi-directional with two highways put next to each other on the same plane a few metres apart, propelling ships into opposing directions.
-They bend a bit during turns (creating a rather off-putting sight).
-They have advertisement boards placed around them.
-They are fixed onto the universe, players/factions cannot modify/build/extend/disable/remove them.

TECHNICAL OBSERVATIONS OUTSIDE
-They are indestructible.
-They don't have generators/catalysts/engines behind their functioning state, they are "just there".
-The ad-signs of the Ring Highway system are there for aesthetic reasons and don't serve purpose, they don't even have active collision meshes.
-The non-ring Highways do have 'starter' and 'ender' gates/generators, once again indestructible, but active collision meshes.

TECHNICAL FUNCTIONS
-They only work on that precise 2D line, placing the central point of the ships at the line point, effectively cutting the ships in half.
-They only support XS, S, and M class ships.
-They accelerate ships to near 10.000 m/s.
-They have static speed marking points (so they can slow you down in certain parts but re-accalarate you in others).
-They apply a blurring effect for objects in momentum relative to you.
-Ships "inside" Highways are indestructible and indisruptable by "outside" forces, including weapon fire and actual objects.
-Ships do not "overlap /cannot overtake" inside them, each ship are on a fixed speed track that cannot be altered by keys.
-They throw you "upwards" by default when exiting them (by full-stop/backspace button).
-After exiting them, ships inherit their momentum, thus they are forced to calculate potential evasive manouvers while the ship decelerates.
-If you slide to the very side of the highway track, it slows you down to reasonable speed. If you exit the highway by the full-stop button in this case, you don't have to worry about high momentum.
-Entering them from different angles, other than upwards (from approx. 25/-25 to 90 degrees) may prove difficult.
-The "belly side/downward side of the highway doesn't always work as intended, sometimes rendering the player ship stuck in a reentry-ejection loop because of the automatic upward ejection direction.


MY PROPOSED VARIANT
GENERAL OUTLOOK
-Highways get back their Tubular form from Rebirth with a different, more transparent layer that renders them invisible after a certain distance.
-They wouldn't touch the Jump Gates, so the continous ring-flight wouldn't exist.
-Each Highway would get their Starter and Ender points as originally intended.

TECHNICAL OBSERVATIONS OUTSIDE
-The Highways would get a generator every 20 km or so.
-Player/Factions could shoot these generators until they are disabled, disrupting the line (and dropping its traffic, traffic piracy ftw).
-The Highways would be rebuilt by the governing faction of that certain Sector.

TECHNICAL FUNCTIONS
-Remember the first iteration of the highway system? It would be something like that, but not.
-Here's how my version would look like from a technical stand-point:
Image

-As you can see, there would be a 'Column' for each speed (similarly to how highways work in real life) and a 'Row' for each class of supported ships.
-Lane-swapping would be similar to how it was in Rebirth v1.0 with one big difference: you could only swap left and right since you couldn't "enter" the wrong class' lane (for instance, an M class ship couldn't fly in the S/XS lanes).
-Entering the Highways would put you into the slowest lane/column, but would only need to press to the left twice in order to gain the maximum speed the highways can offer.
-That being said, exiting the highway from the fastest lane would make your ship inherit the previous momentum, thus you had to slow down manually.
-If you exit the highway from the slow lane, you are just simply pushed out to your regular/sub-light speed.
-You can enter the highway tube from any direction, you would be automatically "pushed" into the right lane/row.
-The Fast Lane would be similar to the current highway speeds (10.000 ms), the Middle lane would be about 6000 ms, and the Slow lane would only accelerate you minimally (1000-2000 ms) for minimal distance crossing.
-Since XS ships are just ingame for a show, the highway's XS lane could be full of them, simulating high traffic.
-Unlike in Rebirth, the Highway Tube's walls would be near-transparent thus you could see where you're at.
-The Inner-lanes/micro-tubes would also only pop-up for a few seconds when you swapped lanes, otherwise they would fade to invisibility.
-Ships still cannot overlap each other inside.
So, why my proposed Highway system would be good?
-It would eliminate the dreaded continuous 'traveling ring effect' that your mind eventually numbs into.
-But if you preferred the continous ring highway, you could still stay in the fast lane that would basically catapult you into the Jump Gate with full speed, and you could catch the next Highway on the other side with ease.
-Capital ships wouldn't be required to use the backside of the Jump Gates for entry.
-By the different speed lanes it would make traveling low distances less annoying (especially with M-class ships).
-Highways would be interactive, opposing factions/pirate factions could do highway raids and attack the stranded and disrupted traffic.
-It eliminates the unnecessary marging space of the current highways with an actual useful function.
-This could also potentially enable players and factions the ability to build more Highways.
-It would be easier to enter Highways once again.
-Highways would once again get their definitve starting and ending gates/points.


This is my idea anyway. What do you think? How would you change them instead?
Last edited by Tomonor on Fri, 3. May 19, 14:41, edited 3 times in total.
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Nifhtyeq
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Re: The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by Nifhtyeq »

Cool idea if this doesn't become a vanilla feature it would still make a great mod.
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Re: The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by Skeeter »

Sounds like you want them back to the old x rebirth way as a tunnel system instead of the ski version of the flat ones in x4.

I personally dont mind the highways in x4 its far less visually impacting compared to the tunnels in space look maps had in rebirth. Im glad they flattened them. Could they be improved, probably as often i have trouble latching on and staying on as they dont like me moving my mouse when i attach much even its a small amount and exiting them seems problematic sometimes im like ok i wana exit how do i do it again so i use a wide up or sideways motion usually to try wiggle off it sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt. I dedicated leave key might handy or a also a latching key, heck maybe use the docking on platforms guidance system for highways and some auto latching and exititng software but then again i suppose u can just do autopilot but then u gotta have a set way point for that to work as if ur just flying around for fun with no set destination then autopilot wont work.

Yeah i know highways should be easy to get in and out and i bet most dont have issues and i dont really its just those odd times it crops up.

Personally u could just get rid of highways and enable a super travel drive where a ship has a where and to point where u click on the map and click on go and it powers up and takes a min and boom ur in slipstream, so no colision and ur seeing a sorta warp from trek effect of the stars and have a timer and then boom ur out (kinda i think elite has) and then ur in the other part of where u wana be. Has a cool down timer tho so to avoid abuse. Then no more highways really needed.

Now if u wana talk about seta and how its really no use now with travel drives in x4 then id say get rid as only people who wana abuse it for quick cash is why its back in i think. I used to use seta alot in past x games, now in x4 i dont miss it thanks to the travel drive. I do miss the stations pumping money overnight but im glad to be away from that behaviour.
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Re: The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by ei8htx »

I like the highway destruction idea.

Why would you ever want to travel slow? If exiting the highway safely is just tapping the right arrow key twice, you don't need 2 extra lanes for that.

Having the Ring end before each gate makes sense. Gate locations are where you'd want to have defenses to catch any pirates or Xenon (which for some completely illogical reason, the races haven't figured out yet). Having anyone and everyone being able to enter any sector unimpeded at 10k m/s doesn't make sense.

An alternative here is some type of gate system that ejects ships that aren't a friendly faction upon entering a new sector in the Ring.

Finally, I'd suggest cutting the max speed in half, and having the acceleration to top speed be much slower.
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Re: The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by Tomonor »

ei8htx wrote: Sun, 28. Apr 19, 20:00 Why would you ever want to travel slow? If exiting the highway safely is just tapping the right arrow key twice, you don't need 2 extra lanes for that.
Three main reasons:
a, if you want to maintain the highway's fast speed/momentum after exiting the highway, you would exit from the fast lane, right? However, if you just want to pop out of it X-Rebirth style, you would slow back down on the slow lane beforehand.
b, If you only wanted to travel a few kilometres down, you might consider the slower lane(s) for slowing down takes a bit of time after exiting the highway currently.
c, I intended to mimic real-life highways by this.
Skeeter wrote: Sun, 28. Apr 19, 19:06 Sounds like you want them back to the old x rebirth way as a tunnel system instead of the ski version of the flat ones in x4.
Not necessarily; in fact, I was only examining how the current system could be improved while remaining somewhat developer resource friendly. If I wanted to go my own radical way, I would suggest their complete visual removal, only popping up by pressing a certain key that helps navigating in the entire sector (similar function to the old holographic Ecliptic Projector).
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Re: The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by ei8htx »

repatomonor wrote: Sun, 28. Apr 19, 20:10
ei8htx wrote: Sun, 28. Apr 19, 20:00 Why would you ever want to travel slow? If exiting the highway safely is just tapping the right arrow key twice, you don't need 2 extra lanes for that.
Three main reasons:
a, if you want to maintain the highway's fast speed/momentum after exiting the highway, you would exit from the fast lane, right? However, if you just want to pop out of it X-Rebirth style, you would slow back down on the slow lane beforehand.
b, If you only wanted to travel a few kilometres down, you might consider the slower lane(s) for slowing down takes a bit of time after exiting the highway currently.
c, I intended to mimic real-life highways by this.
Got it, makes sense now. Sounds like you only need 2 lanes then; one for exit as fast as you can, and one for exit at ship's top speed.

Another idea I just thought of: Have ships that use highways have their shields drained. This makes it so that going in with combat ships requires a bit of planning, and makes it harder to take a core sector before taking a border (as you'd want to pop out a sector early to give the shields a chance to recharge). Commerce would flow as fast as it does today, while combat operations would pick up a little slower.

More to this (and slightly OT), I'd take an Elite approach to shields: Shield chargers and shield capacitors. Your faction military ships would focus their hardware setups on shield capacitors, as they're out just patrolling. Pirates, however, would trade capacitance for charging, so that they can take highways and make fast attacks. I'd probably do some shield draining when using the travel drive too. This would make the choice between a vanguard and sentinel a much important decision, both in commerce and combat ships.
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Re: The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by graphicboy »

repatomonor wrote: Sun, 28. Apr 19, 16:18-It would be easier to enter Highways once again.
That's my biggest complaint, followed very closely by the aesthetics.

I don't know about the different speed lanes, but hell... why not.

The generators thing, eh, seems like overkill. Maybe as gold plating.

Otherwise :+1:
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Re: The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by LameFox »

-They wouldn't touch the Jump Gates, so the continous ring-flight wouldn't exist.
I'd be interested to see what kind of difference this made. My main complaint with them as they are is that it breaks the way the AI fight. Almost never see any larger battles and when I do it's often unescorted Xenon capitals vs another factions everything, because all the Xenon fighters and Ps are busy surfing around the map on a blue line, then getting out one at a time or in different places to die uselessly. I guess that might not stop them from this suicidal waste, though.
-The Highways would get a generator every 20 km or so.
-Player/Factions could shoot these generators until they are disabled, disrupting the line (and dropping its traffic, traffic piracy ftw).
-The Highways would be rebuilt by the governing faction of that certain Sector.
This should have been in the game from the start. I remember even way back in Freelancer the lanes could be disrupted by pirates or a player and made it actually seem like a thing rather than some kind of intangible magic. Quite honestly if their locations were shown by physical structures I'd be happy to completely lose the weird blue stuff.
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Re: The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by Nort The Fragrent »

Highways are good for not getting attacked, That I like. And with the missing Jump drive, are now a necessity for zipping about quickly. They do spoil the game start up explore factor! Just jump aboard and you have discovered 80% of the map in a flash ( Thats silly )
I think they could be part of the game strategy, You have to get the right ship licence to use them, or an upgrade, or something to make them less easy pezze.
The ring Highway is too easy, it needs to be broken, or disjointed in some way. May be as mentioned, damaged and takes time to repair! Road works in space!
It would be cool to unexpectedly enter a sector where once the Highway was,, to then find you have been trust into the middle of a big scrap. And have to use your Witts to survive the crashing about ships, that keep pouring through the gate.

May be not continuous, But of set. Entering the next sector and you have to get across to join it again! Or a clear zone close to each gate, Forcing some pilot skill to get through, as they are, they are to idiot proof.
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Re: The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by martimus »

I honestly like the way they are much better than the proposed version. Having them go through gates make them quite useful. I strongly disliked the highways in X:R until the ring in the expansion that made them quite useful.

My only problem with them is that it is difficult to get on and off where you want. Half the time I try to leave, the game pushes me back on to the highway. I'm not a fan of that.

I understand that people don't like the highway system, but I don't actually understand why. They are far superior to traveling in X3 without a jump drive. Plus they work well as long as you let autopilot take you on and off of them. I hope that they improve entry and exit from the highways though. They improved it greatly in X:R so I'm surprised it has gone back a little bit in X4.
Last edited by martimus on Mon, 29. Apr 19, 04:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by Imperial Good »

My only complaint is that there are far too few useful highways in the game. Ianamus Zura is a good example where the highway is literally to the middle of nowhere and your ships exit it half way to fly to any of the gates. It is not like lots of stations get built near it, ships might only take it to reach 1-2 more efficiently. Another sector which is bad is Tharka's Cascade where again the highway goes to the middle of nowhere and not even the Xenon build much near it.

The highway ring road is fine. It is probably the best implementation of highways in the game so far.
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Re: The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by martimus »

Imperial Good wrote: Mon, 29. Apr 19, 04:47 My only complaint is that there are far too few useful highways in the game. Ianamus Zura is a good example where the highway is literally to the middle of nowhere and your ships exit it half way to fly to any of the gates. It is not like lots of stations get built near it, ships might only take it to reach 1-2 more efficiently. Another sector which is bad is Tharka's Cascade where again the highway goes to the middle of nowhere and not even the Xenon build much near it.

The highway ring road is fine. It is probably the best implementation of highways in the game so far.
I agree with this. I thought people disliked the ring, but you are right about the other highways. They aren't really useful.
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Re: The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by Derp »

I prefer X4 highway style over X:R. +1 for no traffic and fireball-dodging minigames. I think messing with their functionality will be more programming trouble than it's worth, although if the AI can dynamically build highways to speed their traffic, that'd be worth the trouble.

Put me down as a ring hater. You really need to try the "No Highways" mod, it makes the game very different. I'm not a fan of map-wide teleportation either (though that's a different thread), and for the same reason: it should matter where you are.

I'd like to see highways used within empires, instead of a giant belt connecting the map together while secondary sectors suffer. Why aren't the Pious Mist sectors connected in a ring? You know how the Paranid get when they get three of something. Why does HOP territory still have a highway connecting it to the lesser races and traitors? Being at war with them means nothing because your S/M vessels can breeze right through their sectors. Why don't the Teladi have highways leading from industrial sectors straight to mineral patches?
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Re: The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by Observe »

How to improve highways? Get rid of them. Problem solved.
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Re: The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by Tomonor »

Observe wrote: Mon, 29. Apr 19, 18:07 How to improve highways? Get rid of them. Problem solved.
Read the OP next time.
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Re: The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by phrozen1 »

I think i like the vanilla-highways more but to be honest i don't like the concept of highways at all.
It really destroys the feeling of space and huge distances for me.

i use the no-highway mod combined with the rebalance-mod (faster top speeds, no boost) it gives back the feeling of space and makes movement and station-placement more meaningful.
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Re: The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by Marco Nero »

You did not notice how many people dislikes highways on X-Rebirth?
I was hoping no highways in X4, but they are still in (not so extended like in Rebirth ok, but i honestly do not them).
I think there is some problem in this universe: sectors are TOO large and TOO empty, let me explain: if a Sector has a lot of things and station inside there is a sense, but fly in "travel mode" for too long time is very boring, becouse the Sectors has too many open space.
And how do you solve this? Highways.
I think the Sectors like in X3 were perfect: they had a perfect size/station/open space relationship.

Lot number of Sectors per race, no need of highways, good open space percentage to explore, high number of stations inside a Sector. This is what i expected.
At the moment we have poor number of Sectors per Race, they are huge, with a tiny number of station in comparison with size, and highways, i honestly do not find it very interesting.

It's my opinion ofc.
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Re: The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by Observe »

repatomonor wrote: Mon, 29. Apr 19, 19:04
Observe wrote: Mon, 29. Apr 19, 18:07 How to improve highways? Get rid of them. Problem solved.
Read the OP next time.
OK fine then. How about a cockpit switch that toggles the highway invisible? Ugly highways littering space, is one of my main gripes since Rebirth. Normally invisible, one would have to switch on a special sensor to see them. Guys like me could carry on as if highways don't even exist.

Once inside the highway, I would prefer ships use a collision prevention self-driving mode, with the only control being to exit. Don't they have an Elon Musk in the future?

Visually, I see a tube that changes diameter according to how much traffic is using it. No point wasting energy on a fat tube when there are no ships inside. Come to think of it, perhaps the energy to maintain the tube, comes from the spacecraft using it. There could be some sort of special "tube energy cells" that one must purchase or manufacture.

How's that? I still don't highways though. :)
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Re: The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by Tomonor »

Observe wrote: Mon, 29. Apr 19, 22:22
repatomonor wrote: Mon, 29. Apr 19, 19:04
Observe wrote: Mon, 29. Apr 19, 18:07 How to improve highways? Get rid of them. Problem solved.
Read the OP next time.
OK fine then. How about a cockpit switch that toggles the highway invisible? Ugly highways littering space, is one of my main gripes since Rebirth. Normally invisible, one would have to switch on a special sensor to see them. Guys like me could carry on as if highways don't even exist.

Once inside the highway, I would prefer ships use a collision prevention self-driving mode, with the only control being to exit. Don't they have an Elon Musk in the future?

Visually, I see a tube that changes diameter according to how much traffic is using it. No point wasting energy on a fat tube when there are no ships inside. Come to think of it, perhaps the energy to maintain the tube, comes from the spacecraft using it. There could be some sort of special "tube energy cells" that one must purchase or manufacture.

How's that? I still don't highways though. :)
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repatomonor wrote: Sun, 28. Apr 19, 20:10
Skeeter wrote: Sun, 28. Apr 19, 19:06 Sounds like you want them back to the old x rebirth way as a tunnel system instead of the ski version of the flat ones in x4.
Not necessarily; in fact, I was only examining how the current system could be improved while remaining somewhat developer resource friendly. If I wanted to go my own radical way, I would suggest their complete visual removal, only popping up by pressing a certain key that helps navigating in the entire sector (similar function to the old holographic Ecliptic Projector).
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Re: The Highway Paradox - Improving Highways

Post by Olfrygt »

If they make them tubes again i want my money back from the collectors. And i will never buy any other Xgame with highways.

-Highways in X4 are completly useless (travel drive is enough).

-They even create ship class balance problems.

-They look stupid, and more important they ruin the immersion of free space.

-They are not fun to use (to me i'm avoiding them as often as possibel).

-They make the universe super small. After first time i used it i saw half of the universe and all! main sectors in 2 minutes by doing nothing....after that first i wanted to stop playing the game.

-All of these highways and accelerators have a big logical problem. It's called high G-forces. I see it like they did in "The Expanse" TV show or books.

So my solution are.
1. Remove them, because X4 don't need them. And think about future releases and expanding the universe. Will we get more rings? 1,2,3,4?
2. Change them, away from a "street" or "tube" back to a simple system of accelerator rings, and each ring can be used of its own. Fly into it get faster fly into the next if u want or not if u don't.

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