How autotrading should work (and pilot skills in general)

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Aven Valkyr
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Joined: Thu, 13. Mar 14, 23:52
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How autotrading should work (and pilot skills in general)

Post by Aven Valkyr »

I agree that pilot skill enhances the realism of this game. I enjoy the fact that my guys level up as they do stuff, and not just sit in a station to be trained like in X3. And while the concept of this is really amazing and deepens the game a lot, I feel the mark has been badly missed in how this was all implemented. Logically speaking, when my mind thought of pilots having to train to do things better, this is how I saw the system working:

All staff and pilots start at zero. Each category of things a pilot can do has its entry level position that requires zero stars. This would look like this:

Navigation: (This category is not player assigned but increases naturally as NPC pilots fly their ships and is the only factor that counts towards the total star level of a pilot)
Pathfinding - 0 Stars (Allows the pilot to fly the ship and choose waypoint routes. Default level for all pilots)
Acceleration Control - 2 stars (Gives the pilot greater control of the ship while speeding up, slowing down, and exiting highway lanes, so that the ship stops at the desired location)
Travel Mode Efficiency - 4 stars (Gives the pilot bonuses to ship maneuverability, and decreases the time it takes the pilot to get to max speed while in travel mode)
Advanced Vectoring - 5 stars (Gives the pilot access to vectored curves while in-system of the player, allowing the pilot to fly along a curved axis instead of a segmented straight-line axis, giving the pilot much smoother control of their ship, also taking collision avoidance into account)(See this post concerning AI decision making)


Combat:
Escort ship - 0 stars (Default combat role. Allows any pilot to defend a ship)
Protect Station - 2 stars (Just like escort ship except now the ship will engage enemy targets within a certain range of the assigned station)
Patrol Sector - 4 stars (This gives a ship the ability to lead a fleet of ships in the defense of a sector. It will engage hostile targets within a certain radius)
Invade sector - 5 stars (This allows the player to assign ships to invade sectors on his/her behalf. The pilot will jump a fleet of ships into that sector and burn everything down in their path)

Mining:
Sector Automine - 0 stars (Default mining role. Allows any pilot to learn how to mine/sell minerals within a sector)
Region Automine - 2 stars (Allows the pilot to reach out 2 jumps from selected system for mining)
Galaxy Automine - 4 stars (Allows pilot to mine 1 specified mineral in any sector it chooses)
Advanced Automine - 5 stars (Allows a pilot to choose from any mining resource anywhere in the galaxy and auto sells at the best price)

Trading:
Station supply agent - 0 stars (Allows a pilot to learn trading by keeping a single station supplied with goods. Range for goods purchase is 4 jumps)
Shipyard construction supplier - 2 stars (Allows a pilot to automatically determine what materials a station is lacking for the construction of vessels at the assigned shipyard, keeping that shipyard supplied)
Galaxy Trader - 4 stars (Allows a pilot to find best buy/sell prices for up to 10 items which are set by the player within the galaxy)
Advanced Galaxy Trader - 5 stars (Allows a pilot to find best buy/sell prices for ALL ITEMS within the entire known galaxy)

So that's it in a nutshell. Please note that any level 0 pilot can do ANY level 0 task. A pilot should never come with "I can trade but I can't mine" by default. Defaulting ALL PILOTS to level 0 when you hire them, but allowing the to take part in ANY level 0 activity, will alleviate the massive outcries you have on the forums about mass migration of pilots and the insane task the players are experiencing trying to staff their ships. This system is easy and logical and would not take much for you to change, since it's a recent change added to the game, and it's all brand new to the X series. Now is the time to hammer out how it really works, and the system I am proposing here should be getting a +1 from the entire community. Egosoft, please table this idea.

Once again. All categories have level 0 tasks that ALL PILOTS can perform when they are hired. Experience in that task is then grown into a stronger piloting ability within that task genre. Note that navigation also naturally increases as the pilots star level increases. So this is what a pilot could eventually look like:

[THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF A LEVELED PILOT]
Pilot star level - 3 (Feeds from pilots navigation level)
Navigation - 3
Combat - 0 stars (pilot has never engaged in combat or has ran from all situations)
Mining - 4 (pilot has been doing a lot of mining and is very proficient at it)
Trading - 1 (pilot has sold a lot of goods as a result of selling ores from being an autominer, but has never really bought/sold items for profit)

Despite having a 4 star in mining the pilot is only a 3 star pilot. This is because the pilots navigation is at level 3. But each category is tracked separately and given star levels associated with that specific task. This example pilot in question here would be a horrible combat pilot if switched into a combat ship since his career has been spent mainly as a miner and a tiny bit of trading in order to sell the goods.

One last thing I would like to note here is take a good look at the trading stars. The whole way traders do their thing really needs to be changed because "autotrade" just isn't cutting it. We need to be able to assign traders to keep individual stations nicely stocked up. If they sit there for a while waiting for a trade deal to come up, that's fine. At least when push comes to shove I can keep one or two of the stations there supplied. Doing a good job of supplying a shipyard might take several station level traders. But we really need the ability to set up CAG's for NPC shipyards. The micromanagement of the dozen items each shipyard needs in order to build a ship is overwhelming to micro manage, just to build a simple fighter. I don't know how in the world I"m supposed to build fleets of hundreds of ships if it takes hours of supplying a single station just to cut through all the pre-existing orders that are on waitlist so that my one small fighter can be built. I will go into this mechanic in detail in another post. Thanks for reading :)
pref
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Re: How autotrading should work (and pilot skills in general)

Post by pref »

Aven Valkyr wrote: Mon, 8. Apr 19, 03:38 The whole way traders do their thing really needs to be changed because "autotrade" just isn't cutting it. We need to be able to assign traders to keep individual stations nicely stocked up.
+1 to this.
I do not like your trade categories though, imo it should be possible to keep any station supplied with specific wares - not just player owned ones and SYs.
Generally i find the lack of possibility to control what happens to wares is taking a lot away from eco gameplay.

In previous games my whole empire always relied on traders that dealt with specific wares and stations. Never enjoyed ATs as they don't let you engage in the trade aspect with enough detail so that it makes sense.
Always only used ST/UTs to get some initial cash quick so i can set up some more sophisticated networks that had a use later on beyond money printing.
Aven Valkyr
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu, 13. Mar 14, 23:52
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Re: How autotrading should work (and pilot skills in general)

Post by Aven Valkyr »

pref wrote: Mon, 8. Apr 19, 11:58
Aven Valkyr wrote: Mon, 8. Apr 19, 03:38 The whole way traders do their thing really needs to be changed because "autotrade" just isn't cutting it. We need to be able to assign traders to keep individual stations nicely stocked up.
+1 to this.
I do not like your trade categories though, imo it should be possible to keep any station supplied with specific wares - not just player owned ones and SYs.
Generally i find the lack of possibility to control what happens to wares is taking a lot away from eco gameplay.

In previous games my whole empire always relied on traders that dealt with specific wares and stations. Never enjoyed ATs as they don't let you engage in the trade aspect with enough detail so that it makes sense.
Always only used ST/UTs to get some initial cash quick so i can set up some more sophisticated networks that had a use later on beyond money printing.
I think you may have misunderstood where I was going with this :) My whole thinking behind the autotrader being tied to one station was meant for the NPC stations as well as player stations. At first the trader just fulfills orders that the station is calling out for the most. This would happen regardless of ownership of the station and you could set any one of your traders to any station you like in the game and they will buy/sell goods for that station ;)
Buzz2005
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Re: How autotrading should work (and pilot skills in general)

Post by Buzz2005 »

I have been saying this for some time now, having station traders aka contractors you could make a nice chain of supplying NPC stations
Fixed ships getting spawned away from ship configuration menu at resupply ships from automatically getting deployables.
Nifhtyeq
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri, 15. Feb 19, 17:32

Re: How autotrading should work (and pilot skills in general)

Post by Nifhtyeq »

Aven Valkyr wrote: Mon, 8. Apr 19, 03:38 I agree that pilot skill enhances the realism of this game. I enjoy the fact that my guys level up as they do stuff, and not just sit in a station to be trained like in X3. And while the concept of this is really amazing and deepens the game a lot, I feel the mark has been badly missed in how this was all implemented. Logically speaking, when my mind thought of pilots having to train to do things better, this is how I saw the system working:

All staff and pilots start at zero. Each category of things a pilot can do has its entry level position that requires zero stars. This would look like this:

Navigation: (This category is not player assigned but increases naturally as NPC pilots fly their ships and is the only factor that counts towards the total star level of a pilot)
Pathfinding - 0 Stars (Allows the pilot to fly the ship and choose waypoint routes. Default level for all pilots)
Acceleration Control - 2 stars (Gives the pilot greater control of the ship while speeding up, slowing down, and exiting highway lanes, so that the ship stops at the desired location)
Travel Mode Efficiency - 4 stars (Gives the pilot bonuses to ship maneuverability, and decreases the time it takes the pilot to get to max speed while in travel mode)
Advanced Vectoring - 5 stars (Gives the pilot access to vectored curves while in-system of the player, allowing the pilot to fly along a curved axis instead of a segmented straight-line axis, giving the pilot much smoother control of their ship, also taking collision avoidance into account)(See this post concerning AI decision making)


Combat:
Escort ship - 0 stars (Default combat role. Allows any pilot to defend a ship)
Protect Station - 2 stars (Just like escort ship except now the ship will engage enemy targets within a certain range of the assigned station)
Patrol Sector - 4 stars (This gives a ship the ability to lead a fleet of ships in the defense of a sector. It will engage hostile targets within a certain radius)
Invade sector - 5 stars (This allows the player to assign ships to invade sectors on his/her behalf. The pilot will jump a fleet of ships into that sector and burn everything down in their path)

Mining:
Sector Automine - 0 stars (Default mining role. Allows any pilot to learn how to mine/sell minerals within a sector)
Region Automine - 2 stars (Allows the pilot to reach out 2 jumps from selected system for mining)
Galaxy Automine - 4 stars (Allows pilot to mine 1 specified mineral in any sector it chooses)
Advanced Automine - 5 stars (Allows a pilot to choose from any mining resource anywhere in the galaxy and auto sells at the best price)

Trading:
Station supply agent - 0 stars (Allows a pilot to learn trading by keeping a single station supplied with goods. Range for goods purchase is 4 jumps)
Shipyard construction supplier - 2 stars (Allows a pilot to automatically determine what materials a station is lacking for the construction of vessels at the assigned shipyard, keeping that shipyard supplied)
Galaxy Trader - 4 stars (Allows a pilot to find best buy/sell prices for up to 10 items which are set by the player within the galaxy)
Advanced Galaxy Trader - 5 stars (Allows a pilot to find best buy/sell prices for ALL ITEMS within the entire known galaxy)

So that's it in a nutshell. Please note that any level 0 pilot can do ANY level 0 task. A pilot should never come with "I can trade but I can't mine" by default. Defaulting ALL PILOTS to level 0 when you hire them, but allowing the to take part in ANY level 0 activity, will alleviate the massive outcries you have on the forums about mass migration of pilots and the insane task the players are experiencing trying to staff their ships. This system is easy and logical and would not take much for you to change, since it's a recent change added to the game, and it's all brand new to the X series. Now is the time to hammer out how it really works, and the system I am proposing here should be getting a +1 from the entire community. Egosoft, please table this idea.

Once again. All categories have level 0 tasks that ALL PILOTS can perform when they are hired. Experience in that task is then grown into a stronger piloting ability within that task genre. Note that navigation also naturally increases as the pilots star level increases. So this is what a pilot could eventually look like:

[THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF A LEVELED PILOT]
Pilot star level - 3 (Feeds from pilots navigation level)
Navigation - 3
Combat - 0 stars (pilot has never engaged in combat or has ran from all situations)
Mining - 4 (pilot has been doing a lot of mining and is very proficient at it)
Trading - 1 (pilot has sold a lot of goods as a result of selling ores from being an autominer, but has never really bought/sold items for profit)

Despite having a 4 star in mining the pilot is only a 3 star pilot. This is because the pilots navigation is at level 3. But each category is tracked separately and given star levels associated with that specific task. This example pilot in question here would be a horrible combat pilot if switched into a combat ship since his career has been spent mainly as a miner and a tiny bit of trading in order to sell the goods.

One last thing I would like to note here is take a good look at the trading stars. The whole way traders do their thing really needs to be changed because "autotrade" just isn't cutting it. We need to be able to assign traders to keep individual stations nicely stocked up. If they sit there for a while waiting for a trade deal to come up, that's fine. At least when push comes to shove I can keep one or two of the stations there supplied. Doing a good job of supplying a shipyard might take several station level traders. But we really need the ability to set up CAG's for NPC shipyards. The micromanagement of the dozen items each shipyard needs in order to build a ship is overwhelming to micro manage, just to build a simple fighter. I don't know how in the world I"m supposed to build fleets of hundreds of ships if it takes hours of supplying a single station just to cut through all the pre-existing orders that are on waitlist so that my one small fighter can be built. I will go into this mechanic in detail in another post. Thanks for reading :)
Under this system how far can autotraders and autominers go what is their jump limit.
Aven Valkyr
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu, 13. Mar 14, 23:52
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Re: How autotrading should work (and pilot skills in general)

Post by Aven Valkyr »

Nifhtyeq wrote: Tue, 9. Apr 19, 22:48 Under this system how far can autotraders and autominers go what is their jump limit.
Sorry I replied and then noticed you said "and autominers". The range for each type is listed in the parentheses next to the category:

Mining:
Sector Automine - Range Sector
Region Automine - Range 2 jumps
Galaxy Automine - Range Galaxy
Advanced Automine - Range Galaxy

Trading:
Station supply agent - Range 4 jumps
Shipyard construction supplier - Range Galaxy (note: this trader is associated to a shipyard and takes care of the shipyards' needs)
Galaxy Trader - Range Galaxy (but only accommodates up to 10 player defined items)
Advanced Galaxy Trader - Range Galaxy (ALL ITEMS)
Nifhtyeq
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri, 15. Feb 19, 17:32

Re: How autotrading should work (and pilot skills in general)

Post by Nifhtyeq »

Aven Valkyr wrote: Wed, 10. Apr 19, 04:28
Nifhtyeq wrote: Tue, 9. Apr 19, 22:48 Under this system how far can autotraders and autominers go what is their jump limit.
Sorry I replied and then noticed you said "and autominers". The range for each type is listed in the parentheses next to the category:

Mining:
Sector Automine - Range Sector
Region Automine - Range 2 jumps
Galaxy Automine - Range Galaxy
Advanced Automine - Range Galaxy

Trading:
Station supply agent - Range 4 jumps
Shipyard construction supplier - Range Galaxy (note: this trader is associated to a shipyard and takes care of the shipyards' needs)
Galaxy Trader - Range Galaxy (but only accommodates up to 10 player defined items)
Advanced Galaxy Trader - Range Galaxy (ALL ITEMS)
Pretty cool thanks
Falcrack
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Re: How autotrading should work (and pilot skills in general)

Post by Falcrack »

I think, rather than having arbitrary restrictions for autotraders based on skill that limit how far they can go from their home sectors, it could be a "time to find trades" thing. 0 stars means the autotraders will sit stationary for several minutes, simulating the time it takes them to find an appropriate trade. Higher skill levels would shorten that time. A 5 star trader would take no time at all to start up the next trade, in fact they would queue up the next buy/sell cycle before the first one was even done, and would not wait around for anything.
Aven Valkyr
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Re: How autotrading should work (and pilot skills in general)

Post by Aven Valkyr »

"time to find trades" would be an interesting concept :) But the amount of various wares available to that pilot should be a thing too, as well as jump distance. I mean, if I had control of Egosofts dev team for 1 single week, the entire pilot ranking system would be re-worked and we would have something worthy of using here. As it stands, the pilot ranking system and any form of automation from trading vessels is utterly and absolutely completely broken and not worth investing your time into. Which is sad, because how in the hell are we supposed to manage 100+ freighters all running around the galaxy, if we have to tell each and every single one of them "go here, buy this, go there, sell items, go here, buy this, go there, sell items"?? You can't. So it breaks the game.

Mining automation seems to work OK. But then a lot of the time you get stuck with a pilot, in a mining vessel, that has no clue how to mine, and you have wasted your money buying that ship, because now you have to go on a revolving door tour of getting lucky on a new pilot that knows how to mine.... dammit! Lol :D

I really hope they look at this thread and take my ideas into serious consideration. It would fix SO MANY problems we are having with X4 right now :)

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