So, idea is to play in a capital ship and it's primary layer of defense of effing useless. Did you guys not fly capital ships with turrets during testing or what?
Like, how can a mechanic that central to being in a capital ship be this broken?
Anyone suggest any good beam weapons that can be slotted as turrets? I haven't experimented with them a lot. And frankly, I'm afraid someone will answer with Khaak beams because those are extremely rare and exotic. Are there more options to co0mpensate in X4 than previous titles?
Vaeo wrote: ↑Mon, 3. Dec 18, 03:10
So, idea is to play in a capital ship and it's primary layer of defense of effing useless. Did you guys not fly capital ships with turrets during testing or what?
Like, how can a mechanic that central to being in a capital ship be this broken?
Anyone suggest any good beam weapons that can be slotted as turrets? I haven't experimented with them a lot. And frankly, I'm afraid someone will answer with Khaak beams because those are extremely rare and exotic. Are there more options to co0mpensate in X4 than previous titles?
Is it just turrets? I've watched my ships try to attack something and just shoot around it like they were specifically aiming to avoid hitting it, and enemy ships seem to shoot around me more than at me as well. Seems to me as though the AI can't really aim at all.
Or fly, for that matter. At this point it only works IS because it can phase through buildings.
I'd say I'm surprised this made it through testing, but after Rebirths capital ships not being able to fight at launch I'm honestly not.
What I really don't get is the response, which seems to be varying shades of not knowing what's wrong, to turret tracking being "computationally expensive." I may be a ittle out of my wheelhouse, but it doesn't seem to me like the fundamental problem of hitting an object moving moving in three dimensions from another object moving in three dimensions with a projectile moving at X speed along a straight line has fundamentally changed since X:BTF. That just puzzles the hell out of me, especially considering ships have way less turrets in this game than the last few iterations, and there seem to be way less ships in your average combat as well.
In Rebirth it wasn't uncommon to see a half-dozen capitals with up to 50-100 turrets slugging it out while dozens of fighters flew around, especially on high difficulties, and they're all tracking and hitting without a problem. Here, you've got a handful of ships fighting with about a dozen turrets on them max, and guns are literally pointing out into empty space and firing at nothing. The ships are all still obeying the same basic movement rules, so what gives?
I find this turret thing funny, because making AI perfectly accurate is pretty much the easiest thing in the world - it's reproducing imperfect human behaviors which takes work.
Are capital ships bad against fighters, or also bad against capital ships?
I think most turrets being bad against fighters would actually be a very good thing: it would give fighters some relevance in fights.
In X:Rebirth 4.30 I tried participating in some large capital ship fights in the story missions, and even with a fully upgraded Skunk getting within the range of enemy capital ship turrets would get me swatted out of the sky like a fly, even though they were already busy fighting other capital ships. The optimal way to pass those story missions was hiding behind an asteroid. (Perhaps the post-release balancing broke those missions' balance...)
Contrast that with some space games with great capital ships fights like Freespace and Freespace 2: most turrets on capitals are slow to turn and powerful, and designed to inflict tons of damage on other capitals. But they don't really have a chance of managing to target fighters, so capital ships depend on good fighter coverage to protect them from other fighters.
So just saying, haven't played yet but this might be an attempt to give fighters some relevance again.
(You do have to compute the correct vector to lead your target though - perhaps the "computationally expensive" argument has something to it, given that they massively scaled up the simulation aspect in X4 and that anything in view of your own ships can be jumped to instantly in 3rd person view. Is there even OOS combat approximation anymore, once you've covered most of the map in satellites?)
Considering that X2, X3, X:R all had turrets that worked fine, I call bull on Computationally expensive, especially since PC hardware has improved since X2, and the calculations are the damned same.
Hell, X2/3 ran fine with AEGIS/MARS in HUGE fights on my underperforming rig, and those used seriously nice features like friendly-fire mitigation and stuff using ray tracing which was much more computationally demanding back then.
SO yeah, calling BS on this one. I'm just hoping that once I get a capital vessel and use it, I'm not going to be super disappointed like I am with a ton of things right now. Honestly feels like this should have stayed on the cooker for another year.
Granted it's better than X:R release day but that was a steaming pile of crap, and you'd be hard-pressed to do worse.
X games - addictive as heck. Always something to come back to.
Well you can kill any ship in game with the starting ship and gun...
If you upgrade to a larger ship you have such lovely things like the Turrets refuse to fire(something they wont even admit is a known problem)
Even if your turrets do fire you will get a small fighter launching 2-3 missiles at you and you are dead as you cannot dodge and even a fighters missiles will take 75% of medium ships shields in one blow and they will just machingun fire them at you. Your turrets however will miss(according to others) I wouldn't know my turrets are greyed out even when heat bar is active and wont shoot so I just taking other peoples word for it.
Missiles being powerful may not be a problem...
If you could target missiles or turrets worked and could target missiles...
Ovni wrote: ↑Mon, 3. Dec 18, 07:32
I find this turret thing funny, because making AI perfectly accurate is pretty much the easiest thing in the world - it's reproducing imperfect human behaviors which takes work.
Are capital ships bad against fighters, or also bad against capital ships?
I think most turrets being bad against fighters would actually be a very good thing: it would give fighters some relevance in fights.
In X:Rebirth 4.30 I tried participating in some large capital ship fights in the story missions, and even with a fully upgraded Skunk getting within the range of enemy capital ship turrets would get me swatted out of the sky like a fly, even though they were already busy fighting other capital ships. The optimal way to pass those story missions was hiding behind an asteroid. (Perhaps the post-release balancing broke those missions' balance...)
Contrast that with some space games with great capital ships fights like Freespace and Freespace 2: most turrets on capitals are slow to turn and powerful, and designed to inflict tons of damage on other capitals. But they don't really have a chance of managing to target fighters, so capital ships depend on good fighter coverage to protect them from other fighters.
So just saying, haven't played yet but this might be an attempt to give fighters some relevance again.
(You do have to compute the correct vector to lead your target though - perhaps the "computationally expensive" argument has something to it, given that they massively scaled up the simulation aspect in X4 and that anything in view of your own ships can be jumped to instantly in 3rd person view. Is there even OOS combat approximation anymore, once you've covered most of the map in satellites?)
LameFox wrote: ↑Mon, 3. Dec 18, 06:09
Is it just turrets? I've watched my ships try to attack something and just shoot around it like they were specifically aiming to avoid hitting it, and enemy ships seem to shoot around me more than at me as well. Seems to me as though the AI can't really aim at all.
Or fly, for that matter. At this point it only works IS because it can phase through buildings.
THIS, AI in this game is so lame it feels like it is still in alpha...they should fix it ASAP together with the crew management.
LameFox wrote: ↑Mon, 3. Dec 18, 06:09
Is it just turrets? I've watched my ships try to attack something and just shoot around it like they were specifically aiming to avoid hitting it, and enemy ships seem to shoot around me more than at me as well. Seems to me as though the AI can't really aim at all.
Or fly, for that matter. At this point it only works IS because it can phase through buildings.
THIS, AI in this game is so lame it feels like it is still in alpha...they should fix it ASAP together with the crew management.
I have to agree with you on that Its like a alpha build and theirs virtually nothing to do But Trade atm Due to lack of Ship battles in general. Egosoft must be running low on funds to have to do a cash grab like this. Also has anyone even heard anything from the actual Devs or is it radio silence.
I had an Osprey attack a raiding party and it was destroyed. Best gear and items on it too. Five star crew. Sat there getting demolished. I've noticed other oddities like my personal NPC warships not being effective unless I'm actually there. Best gear maxed crew. Can't kill a thing. AI or something is messed up I suppose.
I typically fly a Gorgon now which has 4 tourettes. Beams by default on high preset. I'm controlling the craft so they always autofire. Only thing I can control is the missiles that I use from fixed weapons.
You might see the odd wisp about bug fixes etc but nothing about blatantly broken or missing features.. the more I play the bigger problems and I’m finding.
Tempted to just go back to Albion prelude again, finding this really hard to play, it’s like a chore.
JakubCW wrote: ↑Mon, 3. Dec 18, 09:34
You might see the odd wisp about bug fixes etc but nothing about blatantly broken or missing features.. the more I play the bigger problems and I’m finding.
Tempted to just go back to Albion prelude again, finding this really hard to play, it’s like a chore.
Yea its slog with nothing really to show for it Even if you make a lot of Money there is nothing to do. It turns into a Ghost town unless you attack major factions and even then you will mostly be fighting Fighters Because their is not that many large ships spawning. Maybe in a Year or two it will be passable. Its strange though they could have just cut the graphics down and made the game more similar to something like Litcube or mayhem. Not sure what their vision is for the game.
This sounds really depressing. I really hope there's an explanation for this. Because large fleet battles are kind of a staple of the series. Capital ships need to be able to fight. I really hope the devs explain the situation. Do they have a blog or something with the state of the game?
Well, at one point in time developers shot to revolutionize and impress their audience. That was a big deal when gaming was a newer market and you needed to grab an audience. Now coders seem to be going backwards, tearing crap out of old projects and not even really optimizing it properly.
It always boggles my mind when a mechanic central to the game (like turrets on an M2 or frigate) doesn't work right upon release. It's as if they didn't test it AT ALL. And it sets a real low bar. Big ships are not fighter jets. Loading them up with anti-fighter anti-big ship guns that swivel and a full crew to work them or an automated targeting computer is central to the experience of playing capital ship. There's no excuse for this kind of sucktastrophe. Nor any excuse for radio silence about it.
Vaeo wrote: ↑Mon, 3. Dec 18, 10:48
Well, at one point in time developers shot to revolutionize and impress their audience. That was a big deal when gaming was a newer market and you needed to grab an audience. Now coders seem to be going backwards, tearing crap out of old projects and not even really optimizing it properly.
It always boggles my mind when a mechanic central to the game (like turrets on an M2 or frigate) doesn't work right upon release. It's as if they didn't test it AT ALL. And it sets a real low bar. Big ships are not fighter jets. Loading them up with anti-fighter anti-big ship guns that swivel and a full crew to work them or an automated targeting computer is central to the experience of playing capital ship. There's no excuse for this kind of sucktastrophe. Nor any excuse for radio silence about it.
If they'd ripped things from the old games, it would be an improvement. The only thing I see that is remotely like older games is stations, which were pulled from X:R and possibly polished up a bit.
Gone are hundreds of items, ships, weapons, etc.
Also the capitals are... tiny now.
X games - addictive as heck. Always something to come back to.
Vaeo wrote: ↑Mon, 3. Dec 18, 10:48
Well, at one point in time developers shot to revolutionize and impress their audience. That was a big deal when gaming was a newer market and you needed to grab an audience. Now coders seem to be going backwards, tearing crap out of old projects and not even really optimizing it properly.
It always boggles my mind when a mechanic central to the game (like turrets on an M2 or frigate) doesn't work right upon release. It's as if they didn't test it AT ALL. And it sets a real low bar. Big ships are not fighter jets. Loading them up with anti-fighter anti-big ship guns that swivel and a full crew to work them or an automated targeting computer is central to the experience of playing capital ship. There's no excuse for this kind of sucktastrophe. Nor any excuse for radio silence about it.
If they'd ripped things from the old games, it would be an improvement. The only thing I see that is remotely like older games is stations, which were pulled from X:R and possibly polished up a bit.
Gone are hundreds of items, ships, weapons, etc.
Also the capitals are... tiny now.
Sadface. Cannot fathom how they didn't even really make sure the primary defense mechanism for most ships above M would work. Maybe that's why we have beam weapons. They knew crap was too broke with projectiles and left us with laser pointer turrets that seldom miss. Or so I've heard.
