One thing I would like to see, whether in x4 or if too late the next one, is modular ships.
One of my, small but big, gripes with the X3 series was how the Turret mounts had guns with 2 cannons but could only mount 1 gun, with no way ingame to 'fix' this. Then when i saw the modular station in the last stream, I got this idea.
I like how x3 had different style ships, Raider/Hauler/Vanguard and so on.
What i would love to see is ingame ship construction.But only for the Fighters, the smaller vessels. For example I'll go with the Discover.
When buying a ship at a ship yard, you could either buy the flat price full base ship (Disco= 400m/s engine, 4 guns[2 on 'base hull', 2 on 'wings'], 50 cargo space, 3x 1mj shields] or custom build a "Varient"
When going the Varient route, the more expensive one, you pick a hull base(Disco), which would designate it a M5, M4 or M3 (this case a M5). This would give you base stats (Say for Disco 400m/s, 2 guns[the base hull], 3x1Mj shields and the 50 cargo).
Then you would pick the "specialist" option. Which would upgrade a certain part of the base Things like a Larger Engine (Vanguard= +50m/s) or CargoHold (Hauler= +100 cargo) or ShieldGenerator (Sentinel= Upgrade to 1x5Mj shield). Then you pick wings(which could have multiple snap points on the base hull and mount extra guns).
With the way the stations are going(which I really am excited for) it would be cool if we could have custom built versions of the smaller ships. Especially for the players you make an ingame Corp(head canon) it would allow them to have ships that no other race/corp is using and help it feel like a seperated entity.
Modular ships? Would love to see.
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Lc4Hunter
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This modularity, how you call it, has to use some kind of dependency system.
I think the best example for such a thing is how MechWarriorOnline works.
There you can change arms, legs, and torso parts of your mech.
The only thing that is ever the same is the main-torso. In this case we can call it "main hull" or something like that.
Because of MWO uses weight and heat as the most important limitators we can stop using this as reference here.
Lets say you have different mainhulls. To keep it simple just say they have a different reactor and a different weight.
Now you can add different engines with different specifications: more speed, more maneuverability. The stronger engines needs more energy and has a higher weight.
The you can chose different shild genereators, same thing: stronger ones need more energy and have a higher weight.
Same of course for weapons.
The Cargospace of course requires a bit energy which depends on its size which directly impacts the wight.
Now you have your so called "wings" with the weapon mounts.
The do mostly influence the weight and the maneuverability.
The weapons you can mount do, of course, influence wight and anergy use.
Maybe you could also change the "nose" of the ship and have some different sensors or additional weaponmounts and so on.
The idea is cool in many ways but think of the work it makes. I don´t think ES has the ressources for that.
By the way i would see such a system more on capital ships because of there size there is more potential to modify them in this way.
Smaller ships (or todays military aircraft) has some defined varients.
This variante do not have great optical differences. The greatest differences is the loadout like other weapons, additional fueltanks, stronger sensors and so on.
I think the best example for such a thing is how MechWarriorOnline works.
There you can change arms, legs, and torso parts of your mech.
The only thing that is ever the same is the main-torso. In this case we can call it "main hull" or something like that.
Because of MWO uses weight and heat as the most important limitators we can stop using this as reference here.
Lets say you have different mainhulls. To keep it simple just say they have a different reactor and a different weight.
Now you can add different engines with different specifications: more speed, more maneuverability. The stronger engines needs more energy and has a higher weight.
The you can chose different shild genereators, same thing: stronger ones need more energy and have a higher weight.
Same of course for weapons.
The Cargospace of course requires a bit energy which depends on its size which directly impacts the wight.
Now you have your so called "wings" with the weapon mounts.
The do mostly influence the weight and the maneuverability.
The weapons you can mount do, of course, influence wight and anergy use.
Maybe you could also change the "nose" of the ship and have some different sensors or additional weaponmounts and so on.
The idea is cool in many ways but think of the work it makes. I don´t think ES has the ressources for that.
By the way i would see such a system more on capital ships because of there size there is more potential to modify them in this way.
Smaller ships (or todays military aircraft) has some defined varients.
This variante do not have great optical differences. The greatest differences is the loadout like other weapons, additional fueltanks, stronger sensors and so on.
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Rei Ayanami
- Posts: 3354
- Joined: Wed, 6. Nov 02, 20:31
Modularity has the cost of less originality.
I think during the X4 presentations, Q&A sessions or one of the Egosoft staff said here on the forums that there was an internal discussion about whether they should make ships based on modules, like in X:R, or if they should make an entire new model for every ship.
When you base your ships on premade modules then its easier to make new ships since all you'll need to do is tack some preexisting modules together like Lego blocks and you'll have a new ship.
The downside of this is that modularized ships can become an undistinctive blur, with less unique visual features and thus possibly more boring for the player.
Personally, i'd rather have a new unique model for each ship, rather than ships made out of similar looking modules.
I think during the X4 presentations, Q&A sessions or one of the Egosoft staff said here on the forums that there was an internal discussion about whether they should make ships based on modules, like in X:R, or if they should make an entire new model for every ship.
When you base your ships on premade modules then its easier to make new ships since all you'll need to do is tack some preexisting modules together like Lego blocks and you'll have a new ship.
The downside of this is that modularized ships can become an undistinctive blur, with less unique visual features and thus possibly more boring for the player.
Personally, i'd rather have a new unique model for each ship, rather than ships made out of similar looking modules.
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Alan Phipps
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The halfway position would be ship families each based on different models but with modularity variations possible within those families.
So you see a very familiar hull shape and recognise the base type, but is it a slow defenceless bulk carrier, a well-armed merchant with extensive shielding, a dangerous fighter drone carrier, a heavy missile platform, or a relatively fast and powerful flak ship?
So you see a very familiar hull shape and recognise the base type, but is it a slow defenceless bulk carrier, a well-armed merchant with extensive shielding, a dangerous fighter drone carrier, a heavy missile platform, or a relatively fast and powerful flak ship?
A dog has a master; a cat has domestic staff.
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mr.WHO
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Why don't have both? Some faction might value modularity/flexibility/lower cost, while some other might value maximum performance via ship build from the scratch to do it's job.Rei Ayanami wrote:Modularity has the cost of less originality.
I think during the X4 presentations, Q&A sessions or one of the Egosoft staff said here on the forums that there was an internal discussion about whether they should make ships based on modules, like in X:R, or if they should make an entire new model for every ship.
I like both solutions as they gave you more choice in your ships selection.
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symbine
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Fri, 16. Dec 05, 22:56
Yes this is want I would like and also why I thought only the fighers, or at least not the xl sized ships as I prefer them to be ground up designed, so you could still tell it was say an Argon M4 but different.Alan Phipps wrote:The halfway position would be ship families each based on different models but with modularity variations possible within those families.
So you see a very familiar hull shape and recognise the base type, but is it a slow defenceless bulk carrier, a well-armed merchant with extensive shielding, a dangerous fighter drone carrier, a heavy missile platform, or a relatively fast and powerful flak ship?
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Morkonan
- Posts: 10113
- Joined: Sun, 25. Sep 11, 04:33
Just a note on "modular" ships:
The most innovative design and the one that yielded the most different configurations/shapes that I've seen was in Evochron Mercenary.
Granted, that game was all about "fighters" and, at least at the time I played it, the player could only fly a fighter-size craft. However, what was done was there was a central "null" object, by appearances, and three base sections one could move x,y,z scale and rotate. These sections intersected with each other and had interesting geometry so that one could get some pretty interesting combinations with all those possibilities.
While some would gasp at every ship having three main sections, one has to remember that while all those sections can be combined into a huge number of possibilities, the game is only loading up three objects/sets of geometry for every ship. It's the x,y,z,scale/rotation variables that differ, not the actual geometry itself.
There were basic textures, of course, that could be changed. (Likely, a simple matter of material zone settings over the base texture.) All ships, much like X games, had similar specularity settings for the modules, so profiles flowed together fairly well.
It was a very innovative way to give the player the opportunity to create truly "custom" ships without overloading the game with a bunch of custom geometry and textures.
Would that sort of system work for an X game? It'd take a lot of work, more work than simply modeling unique ships. And, to get it looking nice, one would have to deal with texture stretch or, if materials, project everything as needed, which would probably be a PITA vs standard texturing.
Then, there's the system used in games like Sins of a Solar Empire, which has a similar idea, but limits the combinations to "sections" which allows them to get a lot of detail on each section. And, with the other customizations, it's a good trade-off.
Lastly, the one that yields the most varied combinations, including the options for user-created custom geometry, is Galactic Civilizations. (I only played 1+2.) However, that's just not a practical solution as an X game would just get glutted with too many custom objects. Plus, the games are too different in mechanics to compare such things. It's worth noting, but also worth pointing out its lack of usefulness for an X game.
X game ships are pretty nicely detailed things, so making fully customizable designs would necessarily have less detail as a trade-off. "Some" exceptions could be made, depending on how they wanted to do it, but it would still be pretty hairy to get working smoothly while maintaining the high standard they appear to want to set for X4.
PS - I know this is a broader interpretation of "customizing." I just wanted to bring it up, showcase it, then let it die...
Unless Egosoft get's their dander up and decides to go full-bore with some sort of unique customization options. If so, then here's some examples that have already been done and that "work", more or less.
The most innovative design and the one that yielded the most different configurations/shapes that I've seen was in Evochron Mercenary.
Granted, that game was all about "fighters" and, at least at the time I played it, the player could only fly a fighter-size craft. However, what was done was there was a central "null" object, by appearances, and three base sections one could move x,y,z scale and rotate. These sections intersected with each other and had interesting geometry so that one could get some pretty interesting combinations with all those possibilities.
While some would gasp at every ship having three main sections, one has to remember that while all those sections can be combined into a huge number of possibilities, the game is only loading up three objects/sets of geometry for every ship. It's the x,y,z,scale/rotation variables that differ, not the actual geometry itself.
There were basic textures, of course, that could be changed. (Likely, a simple matter of material zone settings over the base texture.) All ships, much like X games, had similar specularity settings for the modules, so profiles flowed together fairly well.
It was a very innovative way to give the player the opportunity to create truly "custom" ships without overloading the game with a bunch of custom geometry and textures.
Would that sort of system work for an X game? It'd take a lot of work, more work than simply modeling unique ships. And, to get it looking nice, one would have to deal with texture stretch or, if materials, project everything as needed, which would probably be a PITA vs standard texturing.
Then, there's the system used in games like Sins of a Solar Empire, which has a similar idea, but limits the combinations to "sections" which allows them to get a lot of detail on each section. And, with the other customizations, it's a good trade-off.
Lastly, the one that yields the most varied combinations, including the options for user-created custom geometry, is Galactic Civilizations. (I only played 1+2.) However, that's just not a practical solution as an X game would just get glutted with too many custom objects. Plus, the games are too different in mechanics to compare such things. It's worth noting, but also worth pointing out its lack of usefulness for an X game.
X game ships are pretty nicely detailed things, so making fully customizable designs would necessarily have less detail as a trade-off. "Some" exceptions could be made, depending on how they wanted to do it, but it would still be pretty hairy to get working smoothly while maintaining the high standard they appear to want to set for X4.
PS - I know this is a broader interpretation of "customizing." I just wanted to bring it up, showcase it, then let it die...
Unless Egosoft get's their dander up and decides to go full-bore with some sort of unique customization options. If so, then here's some examples that have already been done and that "work", more or less. -
RodentofDoom
- Posts: 407
- Joined: Sat, 27. Feb 16, 09:37
So a bit like the Stromvok & Rahannas/Sul in XRAlan Phipps wrote:The halfway position would be ship families each based on different models but with modularity variations possible within those families.
So you see a very familiar hull shape and recognise the base type, but is it a slow defenceless bulk carrier, a well-armed merchant with extensive shielding, a dangerous fighter drone carrier, a heavy missile platform, or a relatively fast and powerful flak ship?
well the Light Sul defeinately resembled the Rahannas, the Heavy Sul whilst having a similar overall shape had the extra gubbins on the bottom to differentiate it visually.
It's definately a feature i'd like to see maintained within the series
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spankahontis
- Posts: 3259
- Joined: Tue, 2. Nov 10, 21:47
When you go to the Shipyard, you are given the choices for purchase.
------------------------------------------------
WHEN ORDERING A CAPITAL TRADE SHIP
------------------------------------------------
The Ship Dealer gives you these options on the Interface..
1) The Ship Model itself (The Make of Ship, Ranahas, Stryvok etc.), this is everything from the Engine, Boosters, Bridge, Drone Bay, Frame of the ship etc.
2) Drones purchase (Cargo drones, Defence drones, Construction Drones etc.)
3) Armaments of the ship, they come in 4 slot sizes, each design of ship has less/more than it's alien counterpart (Split for example prefer more guns on their trade ships, Teladi prefer more room for cargo etc.)
But each Large trade ship now comes with its own set of different armament slots for customization which will be seen on the ships outer hull (like in Rebirth), that can be destroyed in battle; only now you get to choose
What you want, Being set how many turrets, Shield Projectors etc. you are allocated, you can customize your own arsenal with the limitation of slots that ship design is allocated max.
- Small Slots (Turrets, MK1 Shield Projector etc.)
- Medium Slots (Plasma Cannon, Dumbfire Missile Launcher, MK2 Shield Projector etc.)
- Large Slots (Plasma/Jet Cannon, Astrobee Launchers, MK3 Shield Projector etc.)
- XL Slots (Capital Shield Generator, Nova Torpedo Launcher, etc.)
- Fully customizable so you never see the same armaments on the same make of ship twice (Well, rarity).
- Software Upgrades like in X3 games or the Skunk in Rebirth to improve the Trade ships trade software, scanners, etc. Giving it advantages in space.
- Container Modules, depending on ship make, (Again, Teladi Trade Ships get an extra Module at the expense of less armament slots.) I like the idea that trade ships had these modules in X:Rebirth designed to carry a specific
class of ware. But I think it should not only be expanded upon, but added to the Shipyard Dealers choice of customisations for your trade ship.
Also, for more realistic/immersive purposes, your trade ships should reflect the business model you've chosen to get into.
I agree with certain Egosoft members when they agreed that a Universal Trade Module that could carry all wares (The Tuturiel, Lyraena Ships etc.) was a bad move.
Not all wares are the same, liquids, food, electrical, radioactive, ore etc. they need to be all represented with their own container model designed with the cargo in mind..
- Energy Modules that are designed to only store Power cells safely through space and to be extracted through automated methods/drones etc.
If attacked? The contents should be highly volatile if storage is breached.
- Bulk Modules that are designed to carry raw metals
- Raw Materials Module (Iron, Nvidium, silicon, crystals etc.)
- Hazzard Materials Module (Radioactive materials, rubbish, junk etc.)
Depending on the cargo, it could be volatile if breached?
- Refrigerated Bulk Module (Soya Beans, Delaxian Wheat, Spices etc.) Kept refrigerated, fresh, damage to module can cause the food to spoil, losing profitsss.
- Life Support Module (Cattle, Slaves (Pirates), Passengers etc.)
If damaged/breached? Cattle and Slaves is automatically lost to Space, lose profitsss.
I remember Frontier Elite II had a similar mechanic, life support is damaged, all living cargo was turned to fertilizer.
- Liquid Modules should have different models.
- Volatile Liquid Module (Chemicals, fuel etc.) Again, damage can cause explosion.
- Produce Liquid Module (Water, Raster Oil, Spacefuel etc.) kept refrigerated to keep it fresh for delivery, damage can spoil/contaminate the stock.
- Container Modules are designed to carry everything electrical, packaged or precious.
- Food Container Module (Food etc.) designed to keep food frozen and fresh for selling, a damaged module could cost you your entire stock, spoiled food, losing profitssss etc.
- Electronics Container Module (Computer Components, Quantum Tubes, Microchips etc.) This is static/dust free containage system for important electronics, kept secure and in working order.
Easily susceptible to damage from attacks so keep the module well protected as it's expensive to replace cargo like electronics if damaged by a container breach.
You could have so much fun with this system that the specific Factory you have built needs the right kind of transit.
------------------------------------------------
WHEN ORDERING A CAPITAL TRADE SHIP
------------------------------------------------
The Ship Dealer gives you these options on the Interface..
1) The Ship Model itself (The Make of Ship, Ranahas, Stryvok etc.), this is everything from the Engine, Boosters, Bridge, Drone Bay, Frame of the ship etc.
2) Drones purchase (Cargo drones, Defence drones, Construction Drones etc.)
3) Armaments of the ship, they come in 4 slot sizes, each design of ship has less/more than it's alien counterpart (Split for example prefer more guns on their trade ships, Teladi prefer more room for cargo etc.)
But each Large trade ship now comes with its own set of different armament slots for customization which will be seen on the ships outer hull (like in Rebirth), that can be destroyed in battle; only now you get to choose
What you want, Being set how many turrets, Shield Projectors etc. you are allocated, you can customize your own arsenal with the limitation of slots that ship design is allocated max.
- Small Slots (Turrets, MK1 Shield Projector etc.)
- Medium Slots (Plasma Cannon, Dumbfire Missile Launcher, MK2 Shield Projector etc.)
- Large Slots (Plasma/Jet Cannon, Astrobee Launchers, MK3 Shield Projector etc.)
- XL Slots (Capital Shield Generator, Nova Torpedo Launcher, etc.)
- Fully customizable so you never see the same armaments on the same make of ship twice (Well, rarity).
- Software Upgrades like in X3 games or the Skunk in Rebirth to improve the Trade ships trade software, scanners, etc. Giving it advantages in space.
- Container Modules, depending on ship make, (Again, Teladi Trade Ships get an extra Module at the expense of less armament slots.) I like the idea that trade ships had these modules in X:Rebirth designed to carry a specific
class of ware. But I think it should not only be expanded upon, but added to the Shipyard Dealers choice of customisations for your trade ship.
Also, for more realistic/immersive purposes, your trade ships should reflect the business model you've chosen to get into.
I agree with certain Egosoft members when they agreed that a Universal Trade Module that could carry all wares (The Tuturiel, Lyraena Ships etc.) was a bad move.
Not all wares are the same, liquids, food, electrical, radioactive, ore etc. they need to be all represented with their own container model designed with the cargo in mind..
- Energy Modules that are designed to only store Power cells safely through space and to be extracted through automated methods/drones etc.
If attacked? The contents should be highly volatile if storage is breached.
- Bulk Modules that are designed to carry raw metals
- Raw Materials Module (Iron, Nvidium, silicon, crystals etc.)
- Hazzard Materials Module (Radioactive materials, rubbish, junk etc.)
Depending on the cargo, it could be volatile if breached?
- Refrigerated Bulk Module (Soya Beans, Delaxian Wheat, Spices etc.) Kept refrigerated, fresh, damage to module can cause the food to spoil, losing profitsss.
- Life Support Module (Cattle, Slaves (Pirates), Passengers etc.)
If damaged/breached? Cattle and Slaves is automatically lost to Space, lose profitsss.
I remember Frontier Elite II had a similar mechanic, life support is damaged, all living cargo was turned to fertilizer.
- Liquid Modules should have different models.
- Volatile Liquid Module (Chemicals, fuel etc.) Again, damage can cause explosion.
- Produce Liquid Module (Water, Raster Oil, Spacefuel etc.) kept refrigerated to keep it fresh for delivery, damage can spoil/contaminate the stock.
- Container Modules are designed to carry everything electrical, packaged or precious.
- Food Container Module (Food etc.) designed to keep food frozen and fresh for selling, a damaged module could cost you your entire stock, spoiled food, losing profitssss etc.
- Electronics Container Module (Computer Components, Quantum Tubes, Microchips etc.) This is static/dust free containage system for important electronics, kept secure and in working order.
Easily susceptible to damage from attacks so keep the module well protected as it's expensive to replace cargo like electronics if damaged by a container breach.
You could have so much fun with this system that the specific Factory you have built needs the right kind of transit.
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RainerPrem
- Posts: 4568
- Joined: Wed, 18. Jan 06, 07:39
Hi,spankahontis wrote:When you go to the Shipyard, you are given the choices for purchase.
------------------------------------------------
WHEN ORDERING A CAPITAL TRADE SHIP
------------------------------------------------
The Ship Dealer gives you these options on the Interface..
1) The Ship Model itself (The Make of Ship, Ranahas, Stryvok etc.), this is everything from the Engine, Boosters, Bridge, Drone Bay, Frame of the ship etc.
2) ...(a thousand different options).
But only if I WANT to make my way through those micromanagement options. There should also be standard designs to simply choose from (like "full armament") with one click and there MUST be the option to reuse a previously saved design.
cu
Rainer
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Morkonan
- Posts: 10113
- Joined: Sun, 25. Sep 11, 04:33
Agreed, wholeheartedly. IIRC, in X3TC, one had to go through a neat little "workaround" in order to be able to order everything you needed to be equipped on ship. There just had to be enough in the shipyard's inventory for one. (A bit foggy of a recollection atm.)RainerPrem wrote:...
Hi,
But only if I WANT to make my way through those micromanagement options. There should also be standard designs to simply choose from (like "full armament") with one click and there MUST be the option to reuse a previously saved design.
cu
Rainer
A standardized blueprint was something that everyone really wanted. Many didn't mind "that much" having to manually do eerything, but they would have still liked to not have to do that just to equip their 153'rd M3 Fighter...
And, if capital ships are going to have such detail and a large variety of equipment and capabilities, they'll deserve to have some form of blueprint system.