Multiplayer and New Rebuilt Engine. (Question to Dev's)

[Hardscript]

First off let me start by saying i have been active on these forums for years and know why we do not have multiplayer yet and wont in XRebirth.
This thread is not about asking for it or why we should or should not have it.

In a post somewhere CBJ explained the only reason the x series does not have multiplayer is simply that it is too expensive and your publishers do not feel it is worth the return.

Now my question is, When you built the new game engine for X rebirth did you take into consideration future Multiplayer and design it in such a way that will make it easier for you to implement in an expansion pack or future X Game.

The reason i am asking is because the developers of ArmA 2/3 designed their engine so it is actually made of two parts.

The Client.
This is the part the user controls graphics, movement, sound, etc
The Server.
This is what handles all the calculations Ai, weapons, vehicles, mission, etc.

What this means is that even when the player is playing alone in the single-player campaign, behind the scenes the player is actually just connected to the server module running locally.

The developers were also able to use this method to create what they call the "Headless client" which put simply allows someone hosting a dedicated server to open a 2nd game client and have that client take over some of the AI calculations, which is a cheap way of letting the server use extra ram above the x86 limit and an extra core as it does not have true multi core support.

While i am not suggesting or hoping the new engine for Rebirth is set up in anyway like the ArmA engine, it does raise the question of did you create the engine with possible future separation in mind, which in doing so would mean it would be easier and cheaper to implement fully in the future.

Because everyone has to admit the idea of having a small scale persistent universe that operates much like a mc server would be just amazing.

[RichardDaborn]

Funny you should start a multiplayer thread. I was taking to a friend on steam and we'd like to see something a bit like the Borderlands model, where you have a small number of players teaming up. Obviously the big problem is things like each player having their own ships and resources but I'm sure something could be worked out.

This is something an idea for the future of X, maybe if XR proves to be popular.

[Hardscript]

the big problem is things like each player having their own ships and resources but I'm sure something could be worked out.

That is where the permanent separation of client and server comes in, when playing singleplayer your client connects to its own local server that controls and calculates the game ai/assets, when playing multiplayer it connects to an external server that does the same thing but also controls the assets of the other players who join the server only sending them the information for the sector they are in or what they request.

It would also possibly mean that players may get better performance when connected to a good multiplayer server as their own computers are not burdened with doing all the calculations of the stations and AI.

The other main benefit of designing it like that is that they could have laid the ground work when they rebuilt the engine to work with x64 and then incrementally implement it further over the coming years, making it much cheaper to do and resulting in a less hacky solution.

[Tommety]

How would this system handle the potential discrepancy between scripts being used by both players?

This game is/will be highly customisable with scripts.
X3 (only series I played) had many mods and scripts that added commands, custom ships and even entire sectors.

How would this be handled? If for instance you have a two mods that add a gate/highway that happen to be on the exact same spot or overlap even just partially, how would this be handled.

Could you only join the instance of the other player and all your own scripts are disabled? What if a script allows you to hop on another (capital)ship, would it then revert to a standard AS again, which will not have any upgrades since you never purchased any for the AS?

And if you can only join the other player's instance, how will your game recognise and handle the custom scripts that player uses, especially if in your own game it would cause a dramatic clash with your own scripts?

[Hardscript]

It would work exactly like any other multiplayer game that supports mods/scripts if the server is running mods the players must be running the same mods to connect and for scripts and server side only things the server can supply them when the player joins (Think source games like gmod).

For instance i am currently running several arma 3 servers each with at least 5 custom addons however the players don't need to have the addons to play the server, but if they want to use the addons they need to install them.

These addons being just script based so there aren't any missing models etc if you don't have them.

You also need to understand that the scripts would run on the "Server" module and if you joined someone elses Server you would load the scripts from the server you joined, not the ones you installed on your pc.

You also need to remember that a public server would be an actual server and not just your friends game you randomly chose to join. As a standalone server it would manage its own savefile so your upgraded capital ship wouldn't matter because you wouldn't be loading your save that has the upgraded capital ship, you would be playing in the Servers universe.

[Virtualaughing]

There are race games with calculations of hundreds
There is freelancer with calculations of thousands, guns, shileds ect....
There is X3s with calculations over hundreds of thousands, turrets, collision detections,

Egosoft is not NASA
i don't know how many if any production sites working together in EVE. Or what level of "build your own" factories will be possible in SC but, the knowledge i already have about those games, are nothing compare to X universe

[Hardscript]

There are race games with calculations of hundreds
There is freelancer with calculations of thousands, guns, shileds ect....
There is X3s with calculations over hundreds of thousands, turrets, collision detections,

Egosoft is not NASA
i don't know how many if any production sites working together in EVE. Or what level of "build your own" factories will be possible in SC but, the knowledge i already have about those games, are nothing compare to X universe

It is not as intensive as you think, X3ap runs everything on just the one core.
As for bandwidth it only needs to transmit what the user needs to see.

It is VERY possible to do, CBJ said so himself, this thread is not about how to do it but a question about when they rebuilt the engine did they plan the rebuild around a future multiplayer.

10 years of x games and no mp, are we up for another 10 years of no mp?

[ladylove]

Because everyone has to admit the idea of having a small scale persistent universe that operates much like a mc server would be just amazing.

Not if it takes resources away from the singleplayer. I find most multiplayer games lacking so tacking MP onto the boxlist of features is actually a reason to avoid games for myself.

[Wraith_Magus]

I'll say this nicely before the flaming starts: Frankly, multiplayer threads are done to death.

There is always at least two or three of them on the front page, and the fact of the matter is, there are plenty of multiplayer games out there, while there are players who really do prefer singleplayer-only games. The X-series caters to those players, and poll after poll after poll shows massive opposition to any form of multiplayer being added to the X-series. The people who are the loyal, dedicated fans of a single-player-only game are, unsurprisingly, single-player-only fans.

EgoSoft has its niche market, and it's catering to it.

Bernd has said previously that, due to the way that the game is financed, the only way they could really make a multiplayer game at all would be to make an MMO out of it, and seek funding that way. They aren't inclined to do that, since, well, they have their niche, and enjoy building within it.

There are, again, plenty of games out there giving multiplayer space games, and just look at Star Citizen if you want basically what you are talking about having in a multiplayer space game.

[Rabiator der II.]

In general, I like the idea presented by Hardscript, although Egosoft seems to have handled the RAM size and multithreading problems just fine in one program. Going to a 64bit executable may be a bit inconvenient for people still on 32bit Windows, but it is good "future proofing". Windows 7 Professional and up can handle 192 GB of RAM, now only the hardware has to catch up .

Such a model would be a good first step to a multiplayer-capable system, because it separates what needs to be separated for multiplayer. Of course, genuine multiplayer (especially on the internet) needs to handle a lot more things. Such as tolerating some lag and lost data packets, having a graceful way of handling connection loss and so on.

It is VERY possible to do, CBJ said so himself, this thread is not about how to do it but a question about when they rebuilt the engine did they plan the rebuild around a future multiplayer.

Only Egosoft can answer this question.
In the meantime, some of us will (ab)use this thread to discuss the "how" a bit more .

[Brachra]

If im not mistaken benrd (may have) said, something about if it is asked for enough a small multiplayer feature would be someday implemented, or could be modded in (im going off of memory here) either he said that, or someone said he said that..

But it was the extent of like "2 players" Co-Op mode.

Check the Reddit question thing with bernd, i think it may be in there

[A5PECT]

[–]Simplexletalis 1 point 11 hours ago

Will there ever be a co-op, maybe 2-4 players in x rebirth?


[–]zav42[S] 3 points 10 hours ago

No. No multiplayer for the release. As for the chance of this in the future, we will have to see.

Maybe perhaps at some point but definitely not right now.

A question that more accurately represents the point of this thread would be "Have you designed the X Rebirth engine with any consideration at all for future multiplayer implementation?"

[Slyvers]

This is something I have thought about as well, and I feel the mechanics of X-Rebirth allow for multiplayer.

I believe the only major obstacle for having multiplayer in Rebirth is simply the hard code in the engine, if this already hasn't been tackled. Simply by hearing the devs say it is a possibility means they developed an engine and given thought to a system that would allow in the future. Whether it comes in a Rebirth X-Tension or a Rebirth 2 I feel that Egosoft wants to try its hand at multiplayer at some point in the future.

I will merely say whether a person wants a game with the capability of single vs multiplayer, no reason to limit either, although I would love for games to focus the build around single player, even with multiplayer option, always ends up being a better game in my opinion.

[jkflipflop98]

It's pretty dumb not to add multiplayer.

"There's always threads asking for multiplayer! I hate you noobs!"

"No one wants it!"

Well, which is it? Obviously people DO want multiplayer if there's so much talk about it.

This game series SCREAMS to have a shared universe MP setup like Minecraft. You host your own server on your own connection (or pay for one like counter-strike). You decide who gets the password. You decide what mods are running on the server. DO NOT WANT an MMO. This would not only get a ton more players, but it would help retain them as well. Nothing helps you over a learning curve faster than your buddy that knows what he's doing helping you learn the ropes.

[JClosed]

It's pretty dumb not to add multiplayer.

"There's always threads asking for multiplayer! I hate you noobs!"

"No one wants it!"

Well, which is it? Obviously people DO want multiplayer if there's so much talk about it.

This game series SCREAMS to have a shared universe MP setup like Minecraft. You host your own server on your own connection (or pay for one like counter-strike). You decide who gets the password. You decide what mods are running on the server. DO NOT WANT an MMO. This would not only get a ton more players, but it would help retain them as well. Nothing helps you over a learning curve faster than your buddy that knows what he's doing helping you learn the ropes.

Sigh... There we go again...

Look - this subject keeps coming back, because the same people start this nonsense over and over again. They simply do not want to hear and/or accept a "no" as answer, and just keep trying endlessly. Do not confuse the repentantly asking from a small minority with "everyone asking".

There have been countless polls around this subject and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM has the same result... the overwhelmingly majority of people here do NOT want a MMO. Maybe they want some add on for a local game with a few people, but only, and only, as a add-on - and only if it's done without noticeable effect on the single player game..

I also certainly do not want a MMO. This would ruin the game, because the X series is about a single player that has to find his way in a complicated universe, and want to use the environment and resources as he/she/it seems fit. Involving others in your private universe will ruin this, because other people simply have different wishes. I simply want to do my thing, without asking permissions from other players, been depended on other players, or be hindered or attacked by other players.

I have owned may games that at the end been ruined by going multi player. Examples? Take Quake. This game I really liked at the first two incarnations. It had a (kind of) story and a purpose for your actions. Then came Quake3. Oh man - what a huge disappointment that game was for me. No story (how small that would be) whatsoever, just mindless blasting in huge arena's - and was it. The same happened with Unreal. Yes - i know these games where a success, but for me they where completely ruined. Fortunately Quake 4 was back to the roots and again enjoyable.

So - while it might be possible to have some local multi-player (as long as it don't take resources away from single player development, and has no impact on the game engine), there is no way a MMO will be supported by the majority of people here - and I am happy with that.

[Hemmingfish]

Every poll that's ever been made about multiplayer has always repeatedly been about a 15/65/20 yes/no/don't care split, yet people who want multiplayer always claim it's a popular idea.

At this point it's just flogging a dead horse, so this'll be my last post on the topic.

[Hardscript]

Thank you for not reading a single word of my post and then making assumptions.

Really like it when people do that.

[Hardscript]

I have 3 friends who i have tried to get to play and have been interested right up the point they ask does it have multiplayer and when i say no they wont touch it with a 100ft pole.

Ever think that the poll would look different if they attracted that market, which is a big market i only have 5 actual friends.

[CutterJohn1]

There is always at least two or three of them on the front page

That is because it is quite a popular idea with everyone who hears about the X games but hasn't stuck around on the forums for years.

and the fact of the matter is, there are plenty of multiplayer games out there, while there are players who really do prefer singleplayer-only games.

And the other fact of the matter is that none of them play in any way like X. People want X gameplay in a multiplayer environment. No, it won't work in an MMO environment. Yes it would work in a small server environment. This demand can not be served by playing other games, because they do not provide the same gameplay.

X is a unique game. There is nothing like it out there in any genre, SP or MP.

while there are players who really do prefer singleplayer-only games.

And they could keep on enjoying it. Why does adding multiplayer support equal changing the fundamental nature of the game? Ambivalence to the idea I can understand, but these forums are unreasonably hostile to it, as if the taint of MP would pervert their precious.

There are, again, plenty of games out there giving multiplayer space games, and just look at Star Citizen if you want basically what you are talking about having in a multiplayer space game.

Will SC provide Xs unique gameplay? No. So why even mention it? Just because it occupies roughly the same setting?


Egosoft! Listen up! If you make an expansion to XR that is exactly the same in every single respect to XR, but has multiplayer support, I will buy it! I'll probably buy 4 copies.

Perhaps do a kickstarter so people like me can put their money where their mouth is. You can gauge demand, and if there is enough, get funded. Win win.

There have been countless polls around this subject and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM has the same result... the overwhelmingly majority of people here do NOT want a MMO.

Of course nobody wants an MMO. An MMO would fundamentally alter the nature of the game out of absolute necessity. You couldn't have economic empires full of NPC workers in an MMO.

Nobody, however, ever asks for an MMO. They want a small persistent server like Minecraft.

[Hardscript]

Also to those that dont want mp because they are afraid it will pull away from singleplayer shouldn't worry because everyone feels the same and we all want Singleplayer, exactly the way it is but, multiplayer.

You cant break it if you dont change it.