Ship interiors... Worthy?

[ragamer]

Maybe I cannot shrug off my past experiences regarding "adding interiors" has done to games series I liked (The most dramatical case "Silent Hunter" series... Were the ammount of "interior detail" was inversely proportional to the ammount of "exterior detail"... In particular Campaign/Tactical AI... Which ultimately killed the series. Also the recent EvE disaster on how a "cosmetical feature" impacted the overall gameplay is another kind of "secondary effect" of "adding interiors")

But instead of bitching about it... I want to see what ppl thinks they could add to the whole X experience if done right.

Before offering my opinions/ideas on what they could add to ship interiors, I need to explain something about myself that basically "taints" all my reassonings... Over the years I've become almost immune to "eye candy", if a graphical element doesn't provide a gameplay element associated to it... I automatically perceive it as a waste of resources that could have been invested somewhere else.


- Command Stations

Flying and shooting is what traditionally occupied your "real time" on the X series but... What if the Albion comes with dedicated stations the player actually has to sit into? Natural candidates are the Drone Control and Turret Control but what about: Trading Interface, Empire Control, Communications Control and Boarding Mission Control?


- NPC Interaction

What on all this would justify the needs of a 3D environment? Minigames, Boarding Actions, Personal Combat.


- Interior Customization.

We will be able to alter the interior layout with an impact on the game? Mainly Cargo/Hangar space and/or Difficulty of Boarding Actions?


- RPG elements

Making your crew "visible" will make them also "real" in the skillset department? Or they will just be 3d controls you click on to get your familiar action menus that will only evolve if modded?.


I'm thinking on all of this because to add 3d Interiors will eat a lot of Dev resources (Remember one of the reassons to remove Cockpits on X3TC was precissely the inverse on why they want to add now interiors )...

...I would hate to loose "gameplay features" for "eye candy" ones that aren't fun to use or lack the right support to be extended by the modding community.


P.S. I'm very conservative in my assumptions on how much they will go on XRB "interiors". I'm expecting the Albion, 1 generical "Capital Ship" interior and 1 generical "Station" interior for a total of 3 scenes.

[stabile007]

Well the benefit of not having as many ships to do detailed interiors is probably why they feel they can do it.

Now my opinion on 3D Interiors:
I think people have been clamoring for interior ship corridors and what not for a while now. If you look at the various space sim games out there in one way or another they have alluded to making it a feature: Star Trek Online was supposed to have them and when they didn't people went nutso, Eve Online is going to get them at some point and despite the whole vanity issue thing its still probably going to happen.

People in terms of X have long wanted the cockpits back from X2 and just looking at the popular mods you can see that there is a strong demand for it still.

So what does it add given the cost: Well the RP element should not be under-estimated. There is something to be said of being able to explore your ship or capital ships and talk to crew-members aboard them. It gives you that feeling of life in the universe and not just a sterile environment of ships fighting ships.

If you got to know the crew of a capital ship would you still be as inclined to toss it away simply because financially you can afford to do so? Heck if the X developers really wants to do something interesting they could make it possible after a battle to retrieve escape pods and recover a certain percent of the crew. Getting to know the crew would make you more inclined to do that I think.

In addition it will give an avenue to spend money on vanity things. maybe your home base will have a owners cabin where you can deck it out with silly useless things that just make it look cool. These sorts of things have been popular in games like Fallout and Oblivion and I see no reason why it would be seen as a "waste" in an X universe game.

We play games to be immersed and interiors go a long way to doing that. Anything that helps with that goal is in my book worthy.

[brucewarren]

It would certainly be nice to be able to redecorate the place.

A few persian carpets, the odd Paranid head on the wall (preferably still
concious), to remind them who's really the superior species.
Disrupter rifles over the doors.

It would be even nicer if we could purchase custom rooms as well and
make it a real home from home.

[Falcrack]

Am I the only one here who could not care less about the addition of an interior you could wander around in and fully 3D NPC characters? I would rather the developers would focus their energies on the space sim aspect than spend resources on letting me wander around the cabin.

My goals in an X game consist of trading, buying factories, producing stuff, fighting enemy ships, and otherwise growing my empire. The extra fluff of being able to wander around the cabin of the ship fulfills none of what I want in an X game, and if done wrong, can actually be more of an impediment to me enjoying the game if it complicates the interface and makes it harder to do the stuff I actually want to do.

[stabile007]

Am I the only one here who could not care less about the addition of an interior you could wander around in and fully 3D NPC characters? I would rather the developers would focus their energies on the space sim aspect than spend resources on letting me wander around the cabin.

My goals in an X game consist of trading, buying factories, producing stuff, fighting enemy ships, and otherwise growing my empire. The extra fluff of being able to wander around the cabin of the ship fulfills none of what I want in an X game, and if done wrong, can actually be more of an impediment to me enjoying the game if it complicates the interface and makes it harder to do the stuff I actually want to do.

I doubt you are the only one but it seems to me that is basically just X3/X3TC

[Ulfarus]

I'm with you Falcrack.

I defy anyone who has played mass effect to say they found wandering around the ship a useful and interesting use of their time.

In fact mass effect wasn't even a space ship sim which is what x is.

If egosoft are going down that route then sorry I am out, I buy the X games for the space ship flying. Just as I bought x-wing, tie fighter, starlancer, freelancer, battlecruiser, space fury, elite, and many other games.

[Mightysword]

I defy anyone who has played mass effect to say they found wandering around the ship a useful and interesting use of their time.

In fact mass effect wasn't even a space ship sim which is what x is.

But didn't you just answer the problem right there? The point is ME is not a space sim, the ship in ME is just the samething as a gathering points like the camp or base in other Bioware's game, it's just that in ME it looks like the ship, but it's more like a background picture than a physical ship. Giving XR is a game that's abotu the ship itself, I don't understand how people keep bringing it up a comparision. It's like comparing of plotting down a Theme Park in SimCity and actually build one in RollerCoaster.

[Bill Bones]

On a side note, CCP has backpedaled form their intent to just "deliver some interiors" and are rethinking what whill they do with them, exactly, as to ADD gameplay to the game. Meanwhile they're putting more spaceship stuff in their spaceship game, which shouldn't be a wrong thing to do when your game is pretty much about spaceships.

Of course they've taken a hit of about 1 million euros in lost suscriptions until they have reacted and agreed to what was wrong with their decissions, but I think that Egosoft should learn from the mistakes of bigger companies (bigger as in CCP is bigger than Egosoft, albeit both are small in the industry scale) and start thinking now what do people like of the X sereis and what are they developing and planning to deliver.

Lest they don't find too late that people dislikes having one single ship no matter how shiny it is, or dislike playing the same plot over and over each time they want to "start fresh", or even prefer to take some chance to die ingame rather than just lose an asset.

[AgamemnonArgon]

Interiors ?
Waste of time.
Takes time to change screens, and I need more of the beautifully designed Starships, than a wall with a picture on it, and with myself able to fly all of those ships.
Just a thought.

[Observe]

At this stage we (I) don't know the details of how these interiors will look, what their purpose is, how we will interact, how we will walk around etc.

If I imagine my perfect space game, it would include ship interiors, cockpits, and some of the other things Egosoft is apparently bringing back for Rebirth. There are a lot of other things my perfect space game would have that Rebirth won't, but a step in the right direction is what I'm looking for.

I am happy reducing the number of ship models (one player ship) is this enables Egosoft to work on "missing" elements of the ideal game. My guess is modders will find ways to add additional player ships, so I'm not too worried about that.

[Bill Bones]

At this stage we (I) don't know the details of how these interiors will look, what their purpose is, how we will interact, how we will walk around etc.

If I imagine my perfect space game, it would include ship interiors, cockpits, and some of the other things Egosoft is apparently bringing back for Rebirth. There are a lot of other things my perfect space game would have that Rebirth won't, but a step in the right direction is what I'm looking for.

I am happy reducing the number of ship models (one player ship) is this enables Egosoft to work on "missing" elements of the ideal game. My guess is modders will find ways to add additional player ships, so I'm not too worried about that.

Well, now I tell you what would feel like a playergasm to me: have a very detailed "command module" that could either fly as a limited shuttle craft or attach itself to every ship larger than a M4 (à la I War 2). Then in time the developers/modders could "open" the control module's doors and allow us to wander inside the ships being commanded.

And woah.

[Virtualaughing]

My bet that 20-30% of FPS will be sacrificed coz interior of the ship. Based on the screenshots the shadows are back in the game and if that will be aplied for the interiors too....

All the cockpit features has to be disabled or chaged to some kind of holographic display like in X3 series.

[Chris0132]

They can probably make an interior and a basic 'walk around the interior' mode just as easily as they can make a couple of ships or stations, so it doesn't seem like that much of an investment, and unlike a couple of extra ships and stations, I will actually notice if they don't put an interior in, whereas I won't notice a couple of missing ships/stations in amongst the hundred or so that are already out there.

Basically it seems like a much more efficient use of resources. Better detail I can see than detail I probably won't see most of the time.

Besides, there's something I kind of like about being able to actually sit in the ship and walk around it and look out of the windows, makes it feel a bit more 'solid' somehow than the flying camera with guns strapped to it I was using in X3. Makes me a little more attached to it as well, as I'm obviously carting something around here, something that has value presumably, not just my disembodied, heavily armed consciousness which is what I X3 felt like.

It adds a lot to game slow enough to take advantage of it, which X is.

[ragamer]

K, some interesting points:

To Observe:

At this stage we (I) don't know the details of how these interiors will look, what their purpose is, how we will interact, how we will walk around etc.

That's why there is still room, for the different tastes, to think on what could make the interiors be usefull for... Some posters didn't got the whole idea... I'm also one of those that will prefer Interiors to NOT been there at 1st glance but, put in other words...

...If they are there, what you want them to be used for?


To hokiturmix:

My bet that 20-30% of FPS will be sacrificed coz interior of the ship. Based on the screenshots the shadows are back in the game and if that will be aplied for the interiors too....

Shadows is a good point, but all depending on how dynamic the interior lightning is... But having a 3d cockpit doesn't necesarily means less FPS... In fact it will block a lot of the "outside" scene which will trade off dynamic (and potentially multiple long range 3d objects) for a closer (and potentially higher detailed) 3d object. It all depends on the final implementation.

What it will take an impact will be Observational Decks (A feature specifically stated to work while docked on Caps)... I suppose that they will be made like the remote cameras on previous X's... And here we may have a problem as 2 full scenes need to be kept.


To Chris0132:

It adds a lot to game slow enough to take advantage of it, which X is.

Damn!... You got one of my "backup points". This is the main reasson on why my initial stance of "to the hell with interiors' eye-candy" was not so firm after reading more and more about XRB.

The detail that made me change my mind was really thinking on how the lack of SETA will affect my previous gameplay experience on X Universe...

...The issue is that now we may spend more time "going from point A to B" or "waiting for things to happen"... Well, if the Interiors can be used effectively as a way to spend this new "free time" (That on previous X's was spent by simply activating SETA), they may not only be usefull, they may turn in a lifesaver feature to prevent boredom...

...The trick is that "things to do while flying" needs to include far more things than seeing the same NPC animations/dialogs for the N-th time, or to practice some Zen meditation while you see your "decorative" Bonsai grow a micron more under 0-G .


So this is what my posts are about... I hope more "initial naysayers" take into account all this and start thinking on what would make them enjoy Interiors.

[ragamer]

I put the Mass Effect comparisson reply on an independent post just in case it's considered enough offtopic for moderation .

The ship interior in Mass Effect has never been anything related to a Space Fighting game... Was simply a location that evolved over time. As most ME1 & ME2 locations did... The "ship" was simply one with more "changes" compressed in the same area...

...But there was "nothing" to command there, not even the slight uncertainity about the fate of the Normandy or what could be happening outside her... Because there simply wasn't an alive universe awaiting for any chance to vaporize her.

On ME, although, there is something to learn for XRB... It's the concept of Progression or specifically how it can be turned from a paralell model on ME1 (Something XRB will need for the Albion's NPCs) to an extension of the boring linearity of ME2, were NPC upgrades strictly followed the Main Plot progression that was, OFC, painfully linear.

ME series evolution is just another sad example of how "porting to consoles" may have far more changes than just the control scheme...

...That's why I'm afraid that ME3 will conclude this metamorphosis from a Sci-Fi RPG into another Linear FPS with stats and "boring" dialogs (Specially dreadfull as the last announcement that the "groundbreaking feature" is not going to be Starship Combat, the entire ME Series written material is full of, no... It will be multiplayer, which OFC, will force the Devs to make it even more "FPSish").

This is the lesson to be learned for XRB... "Tunring things personal" is a complex issue and if done wrong can turn the gameplay your series is unique (and well known for) into something streamlined there is plenty of competition around to try to cohexist with.

[Gazz]

Ship interiors... Worthy?

To me? No.

As long as it's a completely redundant way of accesing game functions, I have no problem with it.

But if it's something like this...
Let's say I want to sell something.
I "get up" from the captain's chair and into the "interior", walk over to the comms console, chat up the comm officer, ask him to check the prices on a nearby station.
If those are to my liking, I click to open the bulkhead (waitwaitwait), go down the corridor, open the bulkhead (waitwaitwait), talk to the cargo master, telling him to pack the goods into cargo drones and send them towards the station for selling.

This would be highly annoying.
Drive me nuts.
Like completely marbles and conkers.

[JImmyrosso]

Ship interiors... Worthy?

Not really

People remember this game mostly for the awesome space battles and travel/trading. I personally think Interior/NPC interface would get boring quite quickly once you have played with it.

Hey im still gonna buy the game based on your record for making great space games but i expect a positive experience with this and anything even resembling Mass Effect is gonna get you a earful from me why you wasted dev time when it would be put into other areas....

So to sum it up - DO NOT USE the idea of Mass Effect ship interior as your version of ship interior, it has to surpass it!

[Chris0132]

Ship interiors... Worthy?

Not really

People remember this game mostly for the awesome space battles and travel/trading. I personally think Interior/NPC interface would get boring quite quickly once you have played with it.

Hey im still gonna buy the game based on your record for making great space games but i expect a positive experience with this and anything even resembling Mass Effect is gonna get you a earful from me why you wasted dev time when it would be put into other areas....

So to sum it up - DO NOT USE the idea of Mass Effect ship interior as your version of ship interior, it has to surpass it!

Personally I remember it for sitting around waiting for things to happen, as that's what I spend most of my time doing.

Having something a bit nicer to look at while that is happening is greatly appreciated.

[ragamer]

As long as it's a completely redundant way of accesing game functions, I have no problem with it.

And that's exactly what I don't want... Because that would be literally wasting game resources.

Instead how about thinking on commands stations with specialized UIs or actions you couldn't before:

- A C & C station, you could sit and command your ships with a 3d tactical cockpit adapted not to flying but to commanding ships In real Time? Where you select your ships and "drag'n drop" them to the possitions almost RTS-like?

- How about a dedicated Trading station? Were you can see the Universe from an Empire-like view... Were you can create trade paths, inspect your ongoing operations and with enough progression command your stations remotely?

- How about a Fire Control station? Instead of actually pulling the trigger of each turret you could spend your time priorizing the WHOLE array of weapons of your ship by assigning priority targets, point defense and tactical drone control? (Think on it as actually been the logic of your MARS script... But giving the player the necesary UI/Controls to actually BE that effective).

- How about boarding actions? Defenses... Assaults?. Very ambituous but if there are active NPCs "alive"... Wouldn't be natural to ask for interact with them in "violent ways".

- What about a gambling station? Full of minigames to win/loose money with your crew/passengers.

- How about an elaborated passenger system... Were you can actually have to deal with them in person to offer side missions... To deal with potential saboteurs or even hijackers?

- And how about using the NPCs as AI packs with skillsets and progression? Basically they could be "autopilots" for each station with increasing competence after using [insert whatever progression system you like] over time?


In particular the last step, allowing NPCs to "substitute" you on the different areas, benefit a lot of 1st person interactions. In fact, if I understood correctly the "copilot" is already something like this (bar the progression, ofc)... Ego just needs to create more activities inside your ship to justify the resources into "bringing it alive".

[Gazz]

Instead how about thinking on commands stations with specialized UIs or actions you couldn't before:

I'm all for that, provided I can switch to there with a single keystoke. =P

Ego just needs to create more activities inside your ship to justify the resources into "bringing it alive".

Fornication? That would totally justify having additional ahh... human resources on board! =)