[SCR] MARS Fire Control (v5.25 - 16.02.13)

[Gazz]

although... how does mars work out the towing speed for a goblin pulling a satellite?

Well, in sector it might scale properly but I'm not sure.

Since it's impossible to tell a ship to fly to it's destination at 62 % speed I had to trick the game.

Look for Get.Speed.Limit:

also, any idea what i could change in the tships to increase the available energy for a drone, or is that hardcoded? although, taking a quick glance at the goblin master control, it seems like even if it could be changed, i'd have to change MARS' return home calculations.

Lifetime is hardcoded.
Since MARS uses the actual speed it should not need any adjustment at all.
I never use fixed values when I can read current game data. Saves me so much maintainance.

EDIT: lord amercy... this Goblin code is insane!

LOL, whatcha expect?
You knew the feature list...
Baiting, switching, self defense, missile threat rating and defense, towing to and fro, defending other objects... and that's just the primary missions.

[semiliterate]

awesome, i'll take a look.

as a consequence of my haphazard alterations, fighter drones now have ridiculous amounts of laser energy, since that was the only variable between fighter and freight drones. i figure even a hundred infinitely firing IREs won't unbalance anything so i can't be bothered to sort it out.

thanks!

[Gazz]

as a consequence of my haphazard alterations, fighter drones now have ridiculous amounts of laser energy, since that was the only variable between fighter and freight drones. i figure even a hundred infinitely firing IREs won't unbalance anything so i can't be bothered to sort it out.

Don't mess around in the text file. Use Doubleshadow's X3 Editor.

And don't forget the Keris or Mk2. =)

[Hieronymos]

Gazz,
as I continue to reflect on the incredible changes you've made in the X-galaxy (to those ships that have MARS when engaging those that don't--and vice versa), got some questions:

Can't you increase "accuracy" of MARS-fired weapons (and improve energy/ammo conservation) by having said weapons wait until target moves into effective range (a predetermined % of max. rng.), instead of firing as soon as target comes within range?

For playbalance' sake, ever consider making the Goblin-control part of MARS a separate ware (with similarly steep price tag)??

On a different note, why did you not include weaponswitching capability in
MARS-light?

On yet another note: since the turret portion of MARS mimics a quick thinking human in terms of threat risk assessment + appropriate weapon selection, would this script also not also lend itself well to some sort of "Pilots Project" script, like the TCCP, whereby pilots progress in combat skills?

What tactics do you use against npc capital ships equipped with MARS?
Specifically, if said ships had a good selection of compatible weapons to choose from..

In your personal game, what classes of npc ships do you equip with MARS, and which with MARS-light?

In what respects does MARS differ from AEGIS?

[semiliterate]

get.speed.limit?

okay i gave it a shot and i have no idea what i'm looking at. it's at line 455 in plugin.gz.mars.goblin.control - any chance you could hint at what to change?

EDIT: never mind, found it. didn't realise it wouldn't affect running goblins til i checked the code.

but why are the goblins moving, steadily, faster than the tships says? this is on the way back, unencumbered with no catapult...

also, does line 457 affect any towing other than for sats?

[Gazz]

Can't you increase "accuracy" of MARS-fired weapons (and improve energy/ammo conservation) by having said weapons wait until target moves into effective range (a predetermined % of max. rng.), instead of firing as soon as target comes within range?

It already does that.
The rules are just pretty relaxed because "effective range" is near impossible to define.
It's a jumble of relative course, relative speed, bullet speed, and target size and with the X3ish randomness, a more constricting rule would also prevent many "hitting" shots to be fired.

Now PPC may be a "slow bullet" but when M2 and M5 fly towards each other, PPC can have a relative bullet speed of near 1000 m/s and become a good anti-fighter laser.
Should it not be used at all because in other situations it would be a bad choice?
MARS is more like "You keep argueing, I shoot that target. Later."

Typically this is only seen as MARS switching targets or lasers but that could be because no firing solution at all could be found for the original target. Can happen easily enough when something is flying tight circles a few km out.
Now anything on a straight course is predictable even at 5km. MARS likes predictable.

For playbalance' sake, ever consider making the Goblin-control part of MARS a separate ware (with similarly steep price tag)??

Not really. Credits are not useful for balancing anything in X3.

On a different note, why did you not include weaponswitching capability in
MARS-light?

Performance (there can be a lot of fighters around) and to an extent, roleplaying.

On yet another note: since the turret portion of MARS mimics a quick thinking human in terms of threat risk assessment + appropriate weapon selection, would this script also not also lend itself well to some sort of "Pilots Project" script, like the TCCP, whereby pilots progress in combat skills?

Well, it's a software with a finite set of instructions. What could it learn?

Do you expect training your toaster on black bread until it levels up and becomes capable of toasting white bread?

What tactics do you use against npc capital ships equipped with MARS?
Specifically, if said ships had a good selection of compatible weapons to choose from..

Oh, but that's not my problem. Good luck! =P

In what respects does MARS differ from AEGIS?

I never had AEGIS (wasn't that an X2 script?) so I can only go by hearsay.
I also heard that AEGIS intentionally cheated by mounting a small laser, near instantly turning the turret towards the target, and then mounting the "real" laser. That way all lasers (like PPC...) would turn as fast as IRE.

AFAIK, the thing that MARS does differently from every turret script is that it has no laser matrix where IRE can only fire at M4 and M5 or the likes.
While you can uhh... suggest... to use certain lasers against certain targets, MARS may decide to ignore your suggestion if it considers it counterproductive in the current situation.

but why are the goblins moving, steadily, faster than the tships says? this is on the way back, unencumbered with no catapult...

also, does line 457 affect any towing other than for sats?

They get 2 extra engine tunings because running away is one of their most important tasks. Actually fighting something is never a goblin's first choice and then only if they outnumber the target.

Yes.

[semiliterate]

oh.

um.

any chance you could tell me what kind of object [THIS] in the speed limit is? that might be a more successful question. or, i suppose, what object class satellites are - i was under the impression they were either going to be ships or, well, satellites, neither of which is mentioned in the code.

at least not explicitly. am i missing something in the nested bits?

[Gazz]

[This] is always the object the script is running on and satellites are ship, little ship, stationary ship, and satellite.

But speaking about towing - a goblin can tow just about everything. It's not helpful to include artificial barriers in many script parts. Better to make them not want to tow what I don't want them to.

[Hieronymos]

Credits are not useful for balancing anything in X3.

Do you then have any other ideas re: playbalancing? Other than the very reasonable one of providing MARS to all npc cap ships..

Problem with this is that unlike player-owned ships with MARS--that likely have a pretty good weapon selection for MARS to work with--npc ships often spawn with pretty lame (although sometimes adequate) wpn inventories. Additionally, npc ships also don't have full engine/rudder tunings, unlike player-owned ships, making ai ships 20-40% easier to hit.
Pretty considerable handicaps for sure. Also not your fault. But do you have any ideas on how to rectify this?

Performance (there can be a lot of fighters around) and to an extent, roleplaying.

What do you mean by roleplaying?

Well, it's a software with a finite set of instructions. What could it learn?

Do you expect training your toaster on black bread until it levels up and becomes capable of toasting white bread?

Of course it doesn't learn! It's the Zen thing again, about creating the illusion of learning. Just as is being discussed in the Crew thread. As in certain parameters are set for a gunnery officer, for example, to progress in his tactical ability...And so he mpves up from a level where his ship can only use MARS-light to one where he can use MARS.

[Gazz]

Do you then have any other ideas re: playbalancing? Other than the very reasonable one of providing MARS to all npc cap ships..

When Credits are meanigless it's getting tougher. It's really easy to give the player an awesome weapon system, argueing that it costs 1 million or 80 millions and therefore it's fair.
Where is the fun in dominating the battle field with your special scripts?
Incoming missiles? Not a problem! I have MEDUSA and let all enemy missiles within 4 km detonate. Just like that. Poof.

MARS already does improve the enemy in certain unobtrusive ways that I don't really care to discuss here. =)

Balancing is about either strengthening the enemy or crippleing the player army. The latter is tricky because the player can fix/repair pretty much anything in no time flat.
A lasting disadvantage like half shields takes an effort to keep up.

Problem with this is that unlike player-owned ships with MARS--that likely have a pretty good weapon selection for MARS to work with--npc ships often spawn with pretty lame (although sometimes adequate) wpn inventories. Additionally, npc ships also don't have full engine/rudder tunings, unlike player-owned ships, making ai ships 20-40% easier to hit.
Pretty considerable handicaps for sure. Also not your fault. But do you have any ideas on how to rectify this?

Often the ships don't even have serious cargo space left because they stock up on useless junk. Like IBL for an M2 that wouldn't even want to use any.
And even if they have - it's not that easy to find a balanced weapon mix. A lot of judgement and personal preferrance goes into that.

Of course it doesn't learn! It's the Zen thing again, about creating the illusion of learning. Just as is being discussed in the Crew thread. As in certain parameters are set for a gunnery officer, for example, to progress in his tactical ability...And so he mpves up from a level where his ship can only use MARS-light to one where he can use MARS.

Hehehe. You can use MEFOS if you're into that sorta thing.
I dread making the script even more complex.
For the philanthropic reason of minding your CPU usage, of course.

[Merroc]

I had a quick question, couldnt find it easily in the manual, and browsing through these 60+ pages, no thanks .

Im currently using it on a TL, but i was wondering, does the script automatically resupply it with fighter drones (goblins if you like), possibly by (ab)using ships owned by the big ship? And if so, is there a setting somewhere to put into how many it should get when resupplying?

I never really got the resupply bit, i noticed my MORT resupplying on energy (got it on auto jump), whenever it docks at a station selling EC... But dont know if player written scripts work differently (e.g. like the TMK3 activly looking for EC when it needs them).

[Hieronymos]

Posted: Wed, 4. Mar 09, 08:46 Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: What tactics do you use against npc capital ships equipped with MARS?
Specifically, if said ships had a good selection of compatible weapons to choose from..

A: Oh, but that's not my problem. Good luck! =P

Part of the answer is correct use of combined arms tactics: hitting an M2 with MARS with both capital ship fire, fighters, missles simultaneously. MARS will focus on highest threat--namely PPC fire and mega-missles, and by necessity ignore the rest. With player in an M7 or such, able to strafe-avoid return fire. Or just a player in M7/M2 doing same without fighter & missle support..

If player is tasked with capping a MARS'd M2, he'll have to proceed on similar lines, using IonC, IonPG, IonD fire to nix shields (probably best just to use IonC fire from a single playership to avoid MARS taking out a slew of lesser player assets). But then MARS will just toast any inbound 'pods. Possibly, player could then send in a fast TP, which MARS might ignore as long as playership M7 or M2 remains in range..

So does MARS then effectively make a cap ship 'pod-proof? Any cases you know of where npc M2 or M7 or M1 with MARS has fallen to 'pod-delivered boarders?
Would a stock "Return Ship" mission against a MARS'd Bigship not be impossible?

As a modder I prefer to see MARS as the summum bonum fire control system for big ships, with a tier of increasingly less effective (and less cpu hungry) turret scripts beneath it..mainly to provide contrast. Right now in this current phase of the post-TC release cycle there is only MARS..or no MARS. Pretty sharp extremes, without any content on between.

When DDRS ports to TC sometime in the next few months, mission npc Big ships will spawn with a good selection of 'best' anti-capital and 'best' anti-fighter weaponry (with specifics on these still to be decided ), along with full engine/rudder/cargo tunings, and a generous supply of 'best' missle. And with MARS (assuming your permission & blessing). Will this make them too tough?

Hopefully by that time there will be a few other less effective gunnery scripts available for smaller ship classes..to provide a bit more contrast & balance.

[semiliterate]

can't shoot pods if you fry all its guns off and exhaust the goblin stocks?

[Gazz]

Im currently using it on a TL, but i was wondering, does the script automatically resupply it with fighter drones

No. This is not a trading script.

Hopefully by that time there will be a few other less effective gunnery scripts available for smaller ship classes..to provide a bit more contrast & balance.

I don't really expect that to happen. There are quite a few turret scripts already but they are typically small variations of the Egosoft template.
No radical change in concept. Usually it's only the target selection that is changed, limiting turret targets to certain ship classes.

Some use weapon changing as well but (other than AEGIS?) they all use the black box script instruction to load the "right" laser for target X.
MARS is the only one that combines target and laser selection and there is no convenient script instruction for that. If you want it, you write it from the ground up.

Combining target and laser selection into one process may sound like a trivial advantage but that's the one item that makes it flexible and effective.
Well, and that it only knows 2 ship classes instead of 10 or so: Target and No Target.
IMO, a turret script that only fires at M1/2/7 is severely hampered by such an arbitrary limitation. Especially with modded ships, the ship class quickly becomes meaningless.

A nice side effect of this is that while evaluating those targets it also takes note of any "close second" matches in case it doesn't find a "good" firing solution.
That allows it to improvise if you brought the wrong ship or the wrong lasers for the job at hand.
Enemy contact is the worst possible thing to happen to a battle plan. =)
Slavishly following the instructions in the setup file would then invariably lead to dead end situations where it could not do anything at all.

When DDRS ports to TC sometime in the next few months, mission npc Big ships will spawn with a good selection of 'best' anti-capital and 'best' anti-fighter weaponry (with specifics on these still to be decided :wink: ), along with full engine/rudder/cargo tunings, and a generous supply of 'best' missle. And with MARS (assuming your permission & blessing). Will this make them too tough?

The player can always use his super powers like strafing.
(and live with the knowledge that he was defeated except for this cheating =)

I heard that people did manage to board MARS cap ships before but it certainly won't be as easy as with ES Missile Defense...

[Merroc]

Hm, how to loose your goblins in 2 easy steps...

Jump to another sector and wait...
The goblins flew out when the counter reached like 80%...
Granted I alt-tabbed, but that shouldnt matter for the game. Is there a way to, for future versions, build in a jump check for the automated collection of goods?
(love the way they're actually towing the stuff btw, nicely done!)

[Gazz]

Hm, how to loose your goblins in 2 easy steps...

I don't think so. Jump back and watch.

Is there a way to, for future versions, build in a jump check for the automated collection of goods?

No.

love the way they're actually towing the stuff btw, nicely done!

I have a problem with magic scripts.
*poof* all cargo within 50km is beamed into the cargo hold.
Of course that's a lot easier to write but to me that's not... real.

[Merroc]

Well after i jumped out, i dropped my factory, and jumped back to the sector (to pick up more), but the drones were gone... Couldnt have been more than say, 2 minutes...

But i accept my losses (well, that and the fact that i died later, so i had to reload anyway) and plan to build a drone factory sometime in the near future .

[Gazz]

Could be that when you deserted them (meanie!), they took off sulking and found a better mothership.

[Gerik]

How will MARS interact with modified weapons?

Specifically looking into adding CMOD v3.

[Mckye]

I use Cmod3 with Mars and have no difficulty, I suspect that it still goes off of the damages from the vanilla game and as such may make some strange choices of weapons as it swaps, however I don't have any actual examples of it doing that and so it is likely fairly unusual.