Great original post, and same thoughts that have been wandering my brain as well. It seems most of vague and not-so-vague anti-Egosoft postings are happening by a group that's definately not been involved in impossible deadline situations where the only option is to make the best of a bad situation.
Yes. But that does not change that the game in the box is unfinished. There is a reasonable expectation that this will not be the case.
The motivations and reasons don't mean much to most people who will buy the game; only the results.
I've been away for awhile due to some personal issues, hurricane Wilma being the last piece of *ahem* flotsam to drift my way. I was trying to catch up when I stumbled onto this thread. After taking the time to read all 6 pages of posts, I feel obligated to add my 2 cents. My sincere apologies to all.
First of all...@lazerath:
I enjoyed your post immensely. It was comforting to be able to find an eye to this storm; a rallying point from which to regroup before braving the savage winds once more. (Such melodrama! ) Even though I already knew most of what you mentioned in your original post, it did not hurt to be reminded. There's a saying that (for me at least) seems to apply to almost any situation: When you begin to feel lost or confused...go back to the basics. You did this for me very nicely. Thank you.
@pixel:
Yes, you are right. It could have been shorter. But it was as long as it was because lazerath took the time and effort to spell it out for us in detail. Granted an old vet like yourself doesn't need to have these things spelt out for you nor for any of the other old members of this community who at least go as far back as extension and are already intimately familiar with the trials and tribulations of the x-games. But considering what I have been reading from some of the newer members, I believe lazerath was justified in having done so. I would even go so far as to say that the circumstances merited it.
------------
Before we go and start giving credence to any comparisons between PC games and other forms of media, let's please at least stick to comparisons in which both items contain either a post-sale customer support or a warranty. Most purchases with either one of these are time-limited and in many cases extremely so. Inside this category I know only two companies which have such a fabulous customer support that it never expires; a gift that gives on giving. Ironically enough they are both game developer companies. One of them is Egosoft. Any of the old vets can go ahead and correct me if I'm wrong.
I've been playing games since the very first Atari consoles and the Commodore Vic-20, and if I were to count the number of games that I've paid full price for on the fingers of one hand, I'd still have fingers left over. I just paid full price on my pre-order of X3. Not because I couldn't wait to play it (I could wait another whole year if I had to), but because Egosoft earned my money with X2 and everything that came after. I consider it payment for services rendered, even if X3 turn out to be a complete dud (which I know it wont).
My 2 cents. It's nice to be back.
Peter Mentrie (1952 - 2005) - In loving memory....
Interesting if rather long winded post there dude, some valid points and some almost on the mark but not quite. The beta testing period imho simply wasnt anywhere near long enough, so, because Egosoft were clearly pressured into releasing the game prematurely by thier publisher, the end product has suffered in the most terrible way imaginable. I simply cannot accept the fact, that the so called testing period failed to so utterly and completely miss the glaring bugs that are staring everybody in the face, most notibly the HUD framerate issue that has been discussed to death. So the only conclussion is that a publishing descision was made to release the game anyway regarless of the bugs, and patch the game on release date. That is evidence of addmission in itself right there. You only release a patch on retail day if you know many weeks beforehand that the product is seriously bugged. This is not Egosoft's fault Im sure, but rather the unreasonable deadlines set by thier publisher.
My heart goes out to all the hard working guys and gals at Egosoft who have to see thier hard work get slamblasted because of greedy publishers and thier cold inhuman attitude towards its customer base by forcing them to release a game before its been properly tested. But thats game development for you, and nothing will change that unless in the near future it becomes more viable to offer games to download or release it themselves and cut out the publisher altogether. This way it gives the devs the creative freedom all art teams need to produce a product indicative of their amazing talents and skills without added pressure from grinning publishers. Not to mention more return for their investement. I speak from experience in this regard, as my last company I worked for had a project canned after 2 years of solid work, solely because the publisher wasnt prepared to give the company any reasonable amount of time to produce the game. So they pulled the plug because the contract was very binding, and they had the right. Crazy..! 2 years work lost forever..!
Almost all smaller scale development teams are at the mercy of the publisher, and this has always been the case in the past, due to the high cost of getting a game out into the highstreet. But hopefully with the advent of superfast broadband and more powerful hardware rescourses in the future, nearly all development teams will simply choose to go it alone.
The complaints against the publishers are frankly getting a little ridiculous. Some of it has merit sure, but to blatantly ignore the publishers side of things is not fair.
Now, the game isn't as polished as we may like, that is because the developers didn't have enough time with it, and that is because the publishers set unreasonable deadlines. Sure, that's all true. But there are reasons for these deadlines.
Do you people think that Publishers want to release crappy games? Do some of you think that this gets them more cash, or is it a sick sense of pleasure they recieve from disappointing gamers and developers?
DaFoo said this: "a buggy game will get bad reviews, and shut the money down quick" and that is completely right. Bad games get less money, less money for the developers, and less money for the publishers. Is it possible that the publishers didn't want to be affiliated with an unfinished game, but were forced to anyways. Maybe they had equipment and labor purchased for a set time period, maybe they had given all the money they had available to the developers and payday was coming around. Frankly, I don't know, and neither does everyone else. The publishers don't have infinite money and resources, they are not all powerful gods, unchallenged masters of their domain. They have bills to pay and forces they most respond to just like any one else.
Do I wish publishers let design teams be more flexible, yes, but it is unfar to expect them to bend over backwards and be completely understanding when most of the community seems to have no interest in understanding them. Consider that we owe the publishers thanks for the X games as well, egosoft could not have done it without them. And blaming everything on them may be convenient, but that doesn't mean it's right.
A very well thought out post. However bearing in mind that it is consumers right to recieve a product in the condition it was designed for. Having a incomplete program is unacceptable.
1 point i would like to make out, this it is all very well for those of us who have broadband internet access. But for people who only have a 56kb modem or no internet access it is going to be a huge disappointment when they learn they need to patch the game immediatly after they purchase it.
I would like to see an applogy printed here to all those who have purchased the game and been left disappointed by the MANAGERS of the publisher.
Of all the things i've lost. I miss my mind the most.
I am verry crittical. I am so not because I hate egosoft or that I got a buggy game.
I am so because I do care. I'd like X to be the inherritor of the Elite crown. I'd like it to be a huge succes.
But if I would say egosoft is on the right track at the moment I'd be lying.
X3 is in some respects better than X2 in some respects worse.
I think I would make things worse by saying things are ok while in fact they are not.
The best thing they can do now is make a series of ad ons for X3 and stick with this engine for at least 4 to 5 years. finnish this game and extend it.
As for people saying my posts are to long they are right. The art is making them short and to the point, not long. I often fail at that.(not to mention my spelling)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:23 pm Post subject:
mac.wheeler wrote:
rosetta1963 wrote:
Elwood J Blues wrote:
Being an artist myself, not the same field but an artist no less I know how hard it is to please an audience. When I'm on the stage I have a way of dealing with people who boo me or any the people I'm working with as I take it very personally. It is also easier to change your routine on a stage but I don't believe it is so easy with a game like X3. I will close by saying Egosoft has my support.
Elwood J Blues.
How on earth can you possibly compare an X game to pole/lap dancing ? Wink
You have a thing about pole dancers don't you? Smile
I take my occupation very seriously,yes Rolling Eyes
I never said I was a dancer. Sh**. I though it was made quite clear that I was a Muso'. We're a nine piece jazz, blues swing you name we play it type band. And no we have never played in a stirp club, but have done a few club circuits. And about a month ago my music teacher from around three years ago got into contact with me to play at a gig with his band at the Telstra stadium here in Queensland. So far that has been the highlight of my small and ongoing three year career.
Excuse the screw up with the quoteing.
Elwood J Blues.
P.S. Just saw the wink. Haha. How stupid of me, I need some sleep.
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
mkloepper wrote:Great Post!
Since there is a huge upset in the german forums may I translate your post and repost it over in the german forums lazerath?
Greetings and a big compliment for writing this "monster",
Matthias
Yes you may Translate my post in the german forums
Wow.. I did not think that my post would recieve so many reply's and Views (3184 views ). I am also quite glad to see that people have been very civil and objective in their replies.
Cuto's to everyone
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Just read your post Laz and agree. My only concern is the people who like to complain and moan about the game as you described in your post, probably won't take the time to read it as they will prefer cheap shots on the forum about their rights as a consumer etc.
Any way, a well written post and I bet you feel better for posting it.
There are only 10 type of people who understand binary. Those who do and those who don't.
Good post. Covers just about every aspect of production without going into too much detail. I have worked in just about every field mentioned in your post. I've been a designer for MS Games. Programmer for said games. Tester. Worked on manuals and documentation and in the end, was a support engineer. This was not only for games but Windows, IE and other interacting applications so I am well aware of the difficulties of putting out a completed product on a specific date.
Now, my question is why did they change it? They had a good thing going. I know I'm beating a dead horse here but removing the cockpits is a very bad move IMO. This has been fully discussed at length but I personally enjoyed the cockpits. They hepled with the immersion factor. That coupled with the little boxes whizzing all around the edges of the screen make the game unplayable for me. Regardless of the patches and upgrades released at a later date. The overall reworking of the design of the way the game handles doesn't sit well with me. I don't like the clunky menus. I don't like the mouse getting in the way.
I purchased, installed and attempted to play Freelancer from MS. I couldn't stand the way it handled and mostly the views. That game got maybe 2 hours of play and went on the shelf. There it sits today, glaring at me, laughing saying "ha, I got your fitty bucks - so now what you gonna do". The term "buyer beware" takes on a whole new meaning. This game does not look like they developed a new engine, but simply hired on the programmers from Freelancer and Homeworld.
Unless EGO decides to release a patch that will take away these little boxes and re-implement the cockpits, I have no use for this game. I don't like the way it handles, the planets are pretty but useless and memory hogs and the general issues with the game not being ready for release don't impress me one bit. I know, patches are to be released.
I know that EGO takes care of it's customers. I know that they care about us and what we think. I know that patches are on the way and I know that scripters are out there scripting their little hearts out. What I don't know is why on earth they would remove a very basic thing like cockpits when they knew by the community's many many posts that this was a very important thing for most of us. Yes yes, I know it's not important to some of you, but really, how long have you been immersed in the X-universe? I've been with them since day 1 so this was like a punch in the face.
At this point, I have no desire to play this game. I have removed and reinstalled X2 but that's irritatingly boring as I know the final outcome and that there is X3 and would prefer to play it, but it's not playable, for me at least.
This is not a complaint or moan JackSparrow but an honest opinion - which is what this forum is for. I will continue to check back at the site every so often and see if a new patch has been released to address my 2 concerns (get rid of those damm boxes and give me back my cockpit). If my concerns are not addressed, this will be the last game I purchase from Ego as I really really don't like the style that they have taken on - sorry guys - thanks for the many hours of fun, but no thanks for the punch in the face ...
...and it's got absolutely nothing to do with the problems in X3. It's got everything to do with the people that are already ranting about those problems.
Some background first - I've done my time as a games developer (admittedly a long time ago at the very birth of our industry) and I've done my time as a games journo (up until very recently in fact).
Now, what many people don't realize is that the game you get off the shelves is usually the product of blood, sweat and tears shed not over a melting compiler in some uber-cool startup office somewhere, but shed instead over endless meetings, phone calls, emails and arguments between what the developer dreams, and what the publisher wants.
The publisher pulls the strings. They hold the cheque book. They pay the developer and they make demands as a result. These demands invariably revolve around things like 'stock', hitting a target 'window' and other such nonsense. Now, the developers want to produce the greatest game ever, and they insist to their publishers that please, it would be better if we could have some more time to do xyz, or perhaps this feature could really spice up the game, etc etc. Mr Publisher invariably stamps his foot, screams loudly, and demands the impossible.
At this time of year that invariably means that a developers dream must be completed, mastered, boxed and shipped with 90 days of the magic date - December 25th. The publishers invariably apply so much pressure that developers have no choice but to concede and ship products that do not completely realize their dream..
The end result then usually comes in the form of games players completely slagging off the developer, while the publisher sits by counting his rising market share and bottom line. The reality of the situation though is that more often than not the developers had absolutely no say in the matter; if they didn't do as their contracts demanded they'd be broke, in court and no-one would be happy. The publisher is also the guy that says which copy protection system to use. Again, he's obsessed with profits and market share, and usually doesn't give a jot about end-user experience. If you asked any developer out there how they would like their products protected, I can almost guarantee that none would say "Oooh yeah, Starforce is really cool"
So, the upshot of my little rant here is simple. Egosoft have done a great job. In a few short years they have come from pretty much nowhere to now be a well respected development shop. But, they are still a small development shop and subject to the whims of those in control of the purse strings. realize that they realize that X3 has problems, and that they want to do all they can, within reason (most dev's don't make money on patches) to help you share in their dream. Although I don't know the situation behind X3's release, I do feel fairly certain that they had pressure applied to them by others. The best thing we can do, those of us that want to share in Egosoft's dream is not return the game, not bitch and whine, but help.
When you spot a bug - report it - let them know how to replicate it and hopefully fix it. If there's stuff in the game you don't like - let them know, but in a constructive way. If there's stuff you love, let them know that too. But ultimately, hang on in there - there aren't competitors to X3 on the market right now, so just hang onto that game and report back what you find and trust that the guys and girls at egosoft will do all they can to make the game everything you dreamed it would be.
Simply joining a forum and saying "Yeah it's shit", or "This is crappy", or "this is really slow and I'm returning it - egosoft suck" doesn't help anyone, especially not the developers, and utltimately not you - the guys and girls that just wanted to play a fun video game.
Thanks and that was the objective of the thread. Bring up things that NOT everyone (Some do though) think of. Add to it my own thoughts and speculation and go from there.
Ya the response has been very good and many points from both sides have been brought up that are very credible. I am just glad that its been done in a positive way and has not reverted to the preverbial dissing!
I am a fanboi hehe.. but I complain as well
As far as the translation goes... no idea! I don't speak, read, write any of the other languages supported on this forum!
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There were some pretty signifficant changes made. And it should not have been a big surprise to them that a lot of fans wouldn't like them.They kept quiet about it in their advanced publicity. If people find out after they buy don't be surprised they are not happy.
They just raise expectations too high.
That's smart marketing. Welcome to the modern world.
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