POLL: Should Egosoft make X4 VR compatible?

[Hackod]

I'll be bumping this a bit.

In comments with news about X4 and egosoft requests for VR keep regularly appearing. So it would be worthwhile to look into this again. I'll remind,t hat "VR support" means:

* Seated Play
* With a controller.
* Helmet tracking.

No optimization and changes necessary, just enable VR camera. Whoever has the hardware powerful enough, will play it, and low framerates will be dealt with by Virtual Desktop. I mean, I played Vr games at sub-30 framerate occasionally.

The situation is quite different from X Rebirth time, and right now there are more established frameworks for VR. So it should be possible to target OpenXR or SteamVR. It can also be a paid DLC, it can be marked experimental.

Additional benefit is that Timelines, which are currently marked "Mostly Negative" in steam recent reviews, is much more serviceable as VR content.

Actually, I don't see much point in making this an additional DLC. Let me explain why:

1. Most of the technical aspects (for example, the floating map and the ability to look around with the mouse) are already implemented. All that’s needed is to allow viewing through a headset and turning your head to look around. The only possible adjustment might be to enable head movement when the character is on foot, not just when seated as a pilot.
2. The main advantage of VR for the developers in this case is that there’s no need to create a separate VR game. Instead, the functionality of the existing game is expanded, providing VR users with an excellent opportunity to explore a new universe. If they enjoy it, they might even purchase all the other existing DLCs for the game.
3. Introducing this experimental functionality as a free update greatly lowers the minimum quality expectations for such an update. If partial VR support were released as a DLC, developers would have to redesign the interface specifically for VR and PC. Every new DLC would require additional time for VR integration, which would likely frustrate the developers themselves. However, if VR support were released as a "as-is" feature, allowing players to customize font sizes and other interface elements through the game settings, developers would no longer have to revisit VR adjustments. It would simply exist as a feature, and no new DLC would require further VR-specific updates since VR essentially just changes the player’s camera perspective.

Therefore, I believe it would be much safer, more forward-thinking, and even more profitable for developers to add partial VR support as a free update. This would significantly lower community expectations for the update, leading to more gratitude and less criticism.

[Hackod]

By the way, I’d be willing to beta-test this system for free. I’m quite detail-oriented, so I could be helpful in this regard.

[Y-llian]

Having a poll is basically market research and useful to Egosoft either way. Either, it is evidence that the userbase is not there to justify the investment, or if there is a significant user-base, first is that a 'real' user base and second does the size of that user-base justify the up-front investment. This poll would certainly not be the deciding factor. (tbh, I would launch a VR addition as a kick starter: You want vr, pay up front please).

Mmm... I'm not sure that polling users on this forum alone can constitute market research. For one, the sampling is skewed by virtue of a limited audience - only a very small portion of players who own the game participate here. Secondly, the sample size is further diminished by the fact that only a smaller sub-section of forum users will even take part in the poll. A good example is myself... I looked at the options and thought, 'none of the above' and opted not to vote. So, how effective are these polls really? I'd argue they offer very little of real value, except a time-specific snapshot of views for those who choose to take part.

As I've mentioned in another thread. I'm a VR user and do so often, so it's not like I don't own the kit. It's just that I'm not convinced that VR for X4 can be delivered to a marketable standard without quite a bit of investment. I'd rather Ego focus that investment on making X4 the best non-VR space game they can. Perhaps, in the future things will change and I'd welcome that, but for now, I've seen no good evidence to dissuade my view...

[fury1ord]

OP, how many hours do you have in this game?
How much time of your in-game hours did you spend examining the map?
Do you want to play Stellaris in VR too?

There are Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen, and a couple of other space sims suited for VR gaming.
X4 is not a space sim, therefore VR will be an expensive gimmick only.

[Hackod]

Having a poll is basically market research and useful to Egosoft either way. Either, it is evidence that the userbase is not there to justify the investment, or if there is a significant user-base, first is that a 'real' user base and second does the size of that user-base justify the up-front investment. This poll would certainly not be the deciding factor. (tbh, I would launch a VR addition as a kick starter: You want vr, pay up front please).

Mmm... I'm not sure that polling users on this forum alone can constitute market research. For one, the sampling is skewed by virtue of a limited audience - only a very small portion of players who own the game participate here. Secondly, the sample size is further diminished by the fact that only a smaller sub-section of forum users will even take part in the poll. A good example is myself... I looked at the options and thought, 'none of the above' and opted not to vote. So, how effective are these polls really? I'd argue they offer very little of real value, except a time-specific snapshot of views for those who choose to take part.

As I've mentioned in another thread. I'm a VR user and do so often, so it's not like I don't own the kit. It's just that I'm not convinced that VR for X4 can be delivered to a marketable standard without quite a bit of investment. I'd rather Ego focus that investment on making X4 the best non-VR space game they can. Perhaps, in the future things will change and I'd welcome that, but for now, I've seen no good evidence to dissuade my view...

Just play War Thunder in VR and then on a regular PC (the game client is the same) and explain why the same approach can't be implemented in X4? Considering that everything in the game is essentially already set up for VR. To understand this, all you need to do is sit in a ship's cockpit, open the map, and start looking around using the mouse.

[Hackod]

OP, how many hours do you have in this game?
How much time of your in-game hours did you spend examining the map?
Do you want to play Stellaris in VR too?

There are Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen, and a couple of other space sims suited for VR gaming.
X4 is not a space sim, therefore VR will be an expensive gimmick only.

There is a martial art style called Aikido. If I'm not mistaken, its main principle is to apply minimal effort to produce maximum impact, rather than the other way around.

Let me give an example. Instead of creating a completely new VR game—an approach that requires immense effort with potentially minor results—you can use an "Aikido-like" method. By applying minimal effort, developers could simply add the option to change the player's camera from being fixed to the avatar's head level on the monitor to the view from a VR headset. That's it. No need to adapt controls or account for all types of VR headsets. Just basic SteamVR support, which has a massive player base and allows people to see everything through their own eyes.

Potential benefits: Attracting a new audience that could purchase not only the game but also all its DLC, with minimal investment from the game's developers.

[fury1ord]

OP, how many hours do you have in this game?
How much time of your in-game hours did you spend examining the map?
Do you want to play Stellaris in VR too?

There are Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen, and a couple of other space sims suited for VR gaming.
X4 is not a space sim, therefore VR will be an expensive gimmick only.

There is a martial art style called Aikido. If I'm not mistaken, its main principle is to apply minimal effort to produce maximum impact, rather than the other way around.

Let me give an example. Instead of creating a completely new VR game—an approach that requires immense effort with potentially minor results—you can use an "Aikido-like" method. By applying minimal effort, developers could simply add the option to change the player's camera from being fixed to the avatar's head level on the monitor to the view from a VR headset. That's it. No need to adapt controls or account for all types of VR headsets. Just basic SteamVR support, which has a massive player base and allows people to see everything through their own eyes.

Potential benefits: Attracting a new audience that could purchase not only the game but also all its DLC, with minimal investment from the game's developers.

It looks like you have your mind regarding VR set in stone.
The game supports HOTAS but how many people use it? The same thing will happen with VR - the difference is that adding VR is much more complex and time consuming task with no real benefit to the players and the company. VR support is not a simple on-off switch you add.

Currently, Egosoft has to solve their DLSS/FSR implementation first and only then Egosoft can start thinking of VR implementation.
Personally, I'd guess that VR support might be planned for X5.

[Hackod]

It looks like you have your mind regarding VR set in stone.
The game supports HOTAS but how many people use it? The same thing will happen with VR - the difference is that adding VR is much more complex and time consuming task with no real benefit to the players and the company. VR support is not a simple on-off switch you add.

Currently, Egosoft has to solve their DLSS/FSR implementation first and only then Egosoft can start thinking of VR implementation.
Personally, I'd guess that VR support might be planned for X5.

I use a HOTAS myself!

Honestly, I can’t imagine playing space sims with just a mouse. A joystick provides far more comfort and control while piloting a spacecraft. And with VR? That would be pure bliss!

For developers, the benefit is clear: **money**. There aren’t many high-quality games of this genre in VR. Adding this functionality now would undoubtedly broaden the game's audience, and future titles could integrate VR as a natural feature—similar to *War Thunder*. It could become a hallmark of the series, offering both traditional monitor play and full immersion (excluding in-game VR interactions, with control strictly via keyboard-mouse or HOTAS).

Here’s what this brings:
1. **Audience expansion** (= revenue).
2. **Marketing appeal** (= broader audience = revenue).
3. **More resources for development** (= more DLC, even unrelated to VR, = revenue).

From point three alone, it’s evident this would benefit both developers and non-VR players. Everyone wins.

[vvvvvvvv]

Actually, I don't see much point in making this an additional DLC. Let me explain why:

I simply stated that I would pay for it if it was a DLC. Yes, there's no real "reason" to make it a DLC, it is just like a cosmetic unlock. But the point is that this feature would be more valuable for me than timelines.

It looks like you have your mind regarding VR set in stone.
The game supports HOTAS but how many

Technical aspects of VR implementation were discussed couple of pages ago. By me and several people. I would advise to read previous discussion, as several things you use as an argument aren't true.

[fury1ord]

It looks like you have your mind regarding VR set in stone.
The game supports HOTAS but how many people use it? The same thing will happen with VR - the difference is that adding VR is much more complex and time consuming task with no real benefit to the players and the company. VR support is not a simple on-off switch you add.

Currently, Egosoft has to solve their DLSS/FSR implementation first and only then Egosoft can start thinking of VR implementation.
Personally, I'd guess that VR support might be planned for X5.

I use a HOTAS myself!
...

Do you use HOTAS in map view and station builder view too?
For me X4 is not a space sim that's why I see little benefit from VR in this game.

It looks like you have your mind regarding VR set in stone.
The game supports HOTAS but how many

Technical aspects of VR implementation were discussed couple of pages ago. By me and several people. I would advise to read previous discussion, as several things you use as an argument aren't true.

How many VR games have you developed that you position yourself as VR development guru?

[Hackod]

For me X4 is not a space sim that's why I see little benefit from VR in this game.

It looks like you have your mind regarding VR set in stone.
The game supports HOTAS but how many

Technical aspects of VR implementation were discussed couple of pages ago. By me and several people. I would advise to read previous discussion, as several things you use as an argument aren't true.

How many VR games have you developed that you position yourself as VR development guru?

The key phrase here is "For me". It might indeed not make sense for you. But for me, I have a joystick to the right of my mouse, and I play X4 both as a strategy and as an action game. Most of the time, my pilots fly for me—at least to get from point A to point B.

As for VR development, there are certainly nuances, but even Elden Ring and Cyberpunk can be launched in VR with enough effort—games that were never designed for VR in the first place.

[Y-llian]

Here’s what this brings:
1. **Audience expansion** (= revenue).
2. **Marketing appeal** (= broader audience = revenue).
3. **More resources for development** (= more DLC, even unrelated to VR, = revenue).

From point three alone, it’s evident this would benefit both developers and non-VR players. Everyone wins.

There’s quite a few assumptions here which I’m not totally convinced by. First, is the assumption that there’s some huge untapped VR market for games such as X4. My sense is, that anyone who’s interested in a niche game like this will buy it whether there’s VR or not.

Secondly, It’s worth noting that Reality Labs (makers of the Quest series headsets) saw sales fall dramatically in 2023 compared to 22/21. They have rebounded somewhat in 2024 after the release of the Quest 3 (which I own - great headset) but sales are still behind the VR craze of 21/22.

Thirdly, there’s been a few examples now where studios have stopped VR support or closed outright e.g. First Contact. Ready at Dawn, XR Games is “restructuring”, Frontier Developments stopped VR support for Elite Dangerous, Mojang Studios is removing VR support for Minecraft next year… That’s just to name a few…

Now, we all know that the games industry is undergoing a tough time right now and studios close for complicated reasons, not all directly related to VR. But in this climate, I’d argue, it makes even less sense for a small studio to spend valuable development time / capital when the potential for new sales / markets is far from certain. In fact, it might make more sense for Ego to develop a console version of X4 before VR which could indeed open up sales into the non-traditional PC games market for them. The advantage there also, that the console market is far more mature and established compared to the VR market.

[vvvvvvvv]

How many VR games have you developed that you position yourself as VR development guru?

I worked as a freelancer with unity engine for years, and was subcontracted for work on VR/AR titles. While VR games were not the focus, I'm familiar with development for it. "How to make VR mirror for a system that does not have it", etc. I also have massive experience with VR itself as a user. For example, your claim about needing to boost performance is false, as Virtual Desktop allows to play comfortably at 30-40 FPS. It was discussed before in this thread.

Your argument can be reversed against you. "How many VR games have you developed to claim it will be difficult".

Like pointed out by Hackod, at this point multiple titles have VR conversions. It is just this is easier to do for unity and unreal, but GTA and Cyberpunk mods exist as well.

Regarding "But how many people actually use", that's not quite how it works. In practice, it works like this: There is flight sim crowd, you want to bring them in, you need HOTAS. No HOTAS, they won't come. In the same way, there is VR crowd, to bring them in, you need at least helmet support as a minimum. No support, they won't come. There are people who play business sim, they want numbers, people who are into graphics, etc. There are things they want, if they're not implemented, they won't come. X4 appeals to simmers at the moment, as it supports HOTAS and eye-tracking. VR simmers exist as well. Because people in general are quite hungry for VR content, they'll grab anything. So a reasonable enough idea would be to experimentally enable feature with minimal effort, estimate result. Then refine or leave as is, like BeamNG did it. It would also cost less to develop than Timelines. Which managed to reach "recent mostly negative" a while ago.

It is not about you. It is about groups with shared niche interest which is not yours. Appealing to majority is good, but majority is not all players. If you only appeal to majority, the playerbase will begin to shrink.

[Socratatus]

This one almost got away from me. Made my vote.

I am heavily in favour of VR. I have a headset and believe this game would really benefit from it.

I would say, do not gut the game. Literally change nothing. Just have several levels of graphic options and number of AI activity options. this way the User can taylor adjust his VR game to suit the capability of his machine. A Weak VR system; choose minimal graphics and AI settings, then you have medium and High for people with say a 4090 and high CPU power.

Of course allow smooth movement and `no blinkers` options while on platforms as well, as some us, like myself, have our VR legs. I love smooth movement and don't need blinkers.

I still have hope this can be a thing, despite what people love to naysay to me!

[Hackod]

This one almost got away from me. Made my vote.

I am heavily in favour of VR. I have a headset and believe this game would really benefit from it.

I would say, do not gut the game. Literally change nothing. Just have several levels of graphic options and number of AI activity options. this way the User can taylor adjust his VR game to suit the capability of his machine. A Weak VR system; choose minimal graphics and AI settings, then you have medium and High for people with say a 4090 and high CPU power.

Of course allow smooth movement and `no blinkers` options while on platforms as well, as some us, like myself, have our VR legs. I love smooth movement and don't need blinkers.

I still have hope this can be a thing, despite what people love to naysay to me!

I think ideally, it would be great to at least add the option to simply view the game through a VR headset while still controlling it as usual with a keyboard and mouse. This would require minimal effort from the developers. Adding full-fledged functionality for walking and interacting would involve a massive amount of work, which might discourage developers from tackling this at all or delay it indefinitely.

For now, it would be enough to simply have the ability, while sitting in the cockpit of a spaceship, to look around using a VR headset instead of the mouse—viewing the game world as if through your own eyes, rather than on a monitor.

[Hackod]

but we simply cannot afford to keep throwing developer time at it

I’d like to point out that already 32% of voters are in favor of VR, which is a significant portion of the audience. I believe this alone warrants the implementation of such a feature, at least in a very basic form.

Yes, statistics can’t reveal the whole truth in this case, but that works both ways. And for VR, the outlook seems even more positive because, initially, only a portion of the player base expressed strong negative opinions. However, as more people learned about the topic, the voting results became increasingly favorable. This could indirectly suggest that not only is there an audience "outside the game" that could become interested in X4 thanks to partial VR support (similar to War Thunder), but also a considerable portion of the existing player base is viewing this idea positively as well.

[Socratatus]

I think ideally, it would be great to at least add the option to simply view the game through a VR headset while still controlling it as usual with a keyboard and mouse. This would require minimal effort from the developers. Adding full-fledged functionality for walking and interacting would involve a massive amount of work, which might discourage developers from tackling this at all or delay it indefinitely.

For now, it would be enough to simply have the ability, while sitting in the cockpit of a spaceship, to look around using a VR headset instead of the mouse—viewing the game world as if through your own eyes, rather than on a monitor.

Well if it means VR gets implemented, even in a small way, then I'm for it.

[Y-llian]

but we simply cannot afford to keep throwing developer time at it

I’d like to point out that already 32% of voters are in favor of VR, which is a significant portion of the audience. I believe this alone warrants the implementation of such a feature, at least in a very basic form.

Does it? The sample size is vanishingly small - 48 votes. I'm sorry to say, there's no business case here... You're viewing this topic from a very player-centric standpoint without considering the wider market conditions of the current games industry and VR game development therein. You also ignore that fact the an even larger segment don't want VR - do their views not matter also?

[Hackod]

but we simply cannot afford to keep throwing developer time at it

I’d like to point out that already 32% of voters are in favor of VR, which is a significant portion of the audience. I believe this alone warrants the implementation of such a feature, at least in a very basic form.

Does it? The sample size is vanishingly small - 48 votes. I'm sorry to say, there's no business case here... You're viewing this topic from a very player-centric standpoint without considering the wider market conditions of the current games industry and VR game development therein. You also ignore that fact the an even larger segment don't want VR - do their views not matter also?

Dude, seriously!?) If you had just read a little further, you’d see that I already pointed out this isn’t enough for a fair sample size. I only noted that it can swing both ways—because the voting doesn’t include people who don’t know about X4 but do own VR. And in that context, the results of the vote are actually pretty impressive.

[Y-llian]

I’d like to point out that already 32% of voters are in favor of VR, which is a significant portion of the audience. I believe this alone warrants the implementation of such a feature, at least in a very basic form.

Does it? The sample size is vanishingly small - 48 votes. I'm sorry to say, there's no business case here... You're viewing this topic from a very player-centric standpoint without considering the wider market conditions of the current games industry and VR game development therein. You also ignore that fact the an even larger segment don't want VR - do their views not matter also?

Dude, seriously!?) If you had just read a little further, you’d see that I already pointed out this isn’t enough for a fair sample size. I only noted that it can swing both ways—because the voting doesn’t include people who don’t know about X4 but do own VR. And in that context, the results of the vote are actually pretty impressive.

I did read your whole statement but didn't want to appear rude and deconstruct even more of your assumptions e.g. that this poll/debate indicate: 'an audience "outside the game" that could become interested in X4 thanks to partial VR support (similar to War Thunder), but also a considerable portion of the existing player base is viewing this idea positively as well.' I'm sorry, but it honestly can't. The only way to get that level of detail would be to do proper market research. Now you may be right, perhaps there is some huge desire in the player-base for VR, but this poll tells us nothing about that.

Also, you continue to ignore the 68% who voted against which seams a little disingenuous... If we follow your extrapolative logic, doesn't it also suggest 68% of the player-base don't want VR? See the issue with broad extrapolations such as this?

I'm sorry if you've found my contributions to this thread frustrating, that's certainly not been the intention. It's just that, when encouraging investment in VR we need to be sensible and understand, that it costs money. It's not simply the level of implementation that matter (e.g. your War of Thunder example) but whether even that investment is worthwhile over others. So many game studios have withdrawn VR support or stopped development which is why I'm skeptical...

Hope that helps to clarify... Maybe we should get together in a VR session and debate in the pub?? haha

P.S.
Here's an article re Mojang stopping VR support. Now consider, given the huge player base of Minecraft and even they, couldn't get enough VR players to make support economical...

https://gamerant.com/minecraft-vr-suppo ... ext%20year.