Detector (Finds Abandoned Ships, Tunings, Hidden Objects) [TC][AP][ALP]

[DrBullwinkle]

Some good ideas, Ovni, thank you.

- It should just turn off when you've targeted the abandoned ship.

Nice. I can do that.

- Ditto if you're super-close, being parked next to it or in my spacesuit going to claim it, please stop beeping.

Some objects require pings until super-close, but I can turn it off when in the spacesuit and when targeted.

- In SETA it just drives me insane

Don't use SETA.

(I'm not sure what I could do about it anyway.)

- The AL plugin seems to turn itself back on whenever I enter a sector.

It does not do that, but Detector is always On when the AL Plugin is On.

The only time that Detector turns itself On (currently) is when you load a saved game. That is to ensure that you do not leave it Off by mistake.

And I'd really, really appreciate a hotkey to turn the detector on/off, as it sounds like something I'm gonna do quite often.

I have thought about options for a Mute Button. In fact, I already coded it to respond to a Mute Button... I just have not decided how to implement the button itself yet.

It is not easy to handle all cases; especially when there is more than one object to find in a sector. It would be very easy to mute a ship and miss a valuable tuning crate, for example. Detector makes no attempt to track multiple targets; it simply finds the highest-precedent target. You must capture the first target in order to find the next target in the same sector.

I suspect that any attempt to make a Mute Button will be unsatisfactory for some players (which is why I have not yet done it).

However, a hotkey is easy to implement and should not impede anyone, so I can add that as an experiment. It will have to auto-re-enable itself under some circumstance, and your idea of re-enabling when changing sectors might be possible. Otherwise, I could just re-enable after a few minutes.

- capping the range to a (pretty large) distance might be better, so that instead of being nagged you kind of have the impression of searching for stuff.

This, too, is difficult to fit all cases. I recently saw an example of an abandoned ship that spawned over 600 km from player ship -- that is larger than many sectors. If Detector did not have long range then it would be impossible to find such a ship. Even mapping the sector would not be sufficient. So I think it is fundamentally necessary for Detector to alert the player somehow; even when the object is at long range.

I could change the long range behavior, which might be a compromise. Until I added the multiple ping tones and subtitle text, it was quite difficult to find an object at extreme range. I could disable the multiple ping tones at long range, which would make it difficult (but not impossible) to find an object.

I could even disable the pings completely (and only allow ticks) at long range. However, that may be too difficult for many players. It would be very like the Balance of Power mission in Merchant Haven. TBH, I thought that was more trouble than fun, although I did, eventually, find the hidden base.

Another reason for making long-range detection easier is because it takes a long time to fly long distances in most ships. Even a Kestrel takes several minutes to travel 100 km (assuming that you are headed in the correct direction).

I am open to ideas about how to make Detector more fun/challenging without making it impossible or frustrating. Suggestions welcome.

[Ovni]

Some good ideas, Ovni, thank you.

And thank you for working on this nice mod !

- The AL plugin seems to turn itself back on whenever I enter a sector.

It does not do that, but Detector is always On when the AL Plugin is On.

The only time that Detector turns itself On (currently) is when you load a saved game. That is to ensure that you do not leave it Off by mistake.

Ok I see, I must've been loading many savegames because I was getting killed constantly by pirates.

To be honest it's annoying behavior, it should really only turn itself on when installing the script. Afterwards it's the player's responsibility to turn the AL plugin on or off. Sometimes I just don't want to be distracted.

The pirates remind me that it might a good idea to turn off the detector if you're in combat... you need your ears for missile beeps and stuff.

And I'd really, really appreciate a hotkey to turn the detector on/off, as it sounds like something I'm gonna do quite often.

I have thought about options for a Mute Button. In fact, I already coded it to respond to a Mute Button... I just have not decided how to implement the button itself yet.

It is not easy to handle all cases; especially when there is more than one object to find in a sector. It would be very easy to mute a ship and miss a valuable tuning crate, for example. Detector makes no attempt to track multiple targets; it simply finds the highest-precedent target. You must capture the first target in order to find the next target in the same sector.

I suspect that any attempt to make a Mute Button will be unsatisfactory for some players (which is why I have not yet done it).

However, a hotkey is easy to implement and should not impede anyone, so I can add that as an experiment. It will have to auto-re-enable itself under some circumstance, and your idea of re-enabling when changing sectors might be possible. Otherwise, I could just re-enable after a few minutes.

I really need a way of turning it off for indefinite periods of time, but for that the AL menu would be appropriate. For temporary muting I'm not sure... personally I can take responsability for switching it on and off, but I guess switching it back on when changing sectors could be handy.

- capping the range to a (pretty large) distance might be better, so that instead of being nagged you kind of have the impression of searching for stuff.

This, too, is difficult to fit all cases. I recently saw an example of an abandoned ship that spawned over 600 km from player ship -- that is larger than many sectors. If Detector did not have long range then it would be impossible to find such a ship. Even mapping the sector would not be sufficient. So I think it is fundamentally necessary for Detector to alert the player somehow; even when the object is at long range.

Wow, ok. Agreed on the long range thing; I had no idea that Egosoft were insane enough to think a player would "stumble" upon an object 600 km away in empty space. I guess they're just having fun hiding things around.

But those distances make SETA even more necessary. Can you detect when SETA is running in your script, and either disable beeps or multiply your beep interval by the SETA factor?

ALTERNATE IDEA:

You could just sidestep the whole "when should it turn itself back on" and "why does SETA violate my ears" issues. By making the detector active instead of passive. Give the player a hotkey that he presses to send a radar ping. Then he receives a pingback, the delay before the beep depends on the object distance and the tone or type of sound depends on your ship's heading.

This variant has the advantage of never spamming the player, and might even be a bit more fun since you get to do something.

[DrBullwinkle]

Seriously: SETA is no good when hunting. It is really only good for short bursts of straight-line travel, and you need frequent pings to know that you are still headed in the correct direction.

Even if I could do anything about SETA (which I do not think that I can), I am not sure that I would do anything about it. Try it for a while... my current thought is that it works nearly optimally in that regard.

Regarding the ALP: If I implement a Mute Button, then it would be OK for the AL Plugin to stay Off when the player turns it Off. "Mute" can re-enable itself, but "Off" would not.

I really like the Single Ping idea; perhaps combined with Mute. So the player could still send a ping even when automatic detection is muted.

I will kick these ideas around, and maybe do some testing with them.

Thanks!

-- Bullwinkle

[Teladidrone]

Tried it. Interesting concept - I always wanted a scanner for abandoned ships.

But this scanner completely takes over the subtitles - messages sent by other scripts/missions/whatever are very easily lost/overlooked.
And as pointed out already this "turn-itself-on" behavior at any reload is most annoying and the number one reason I uninstalled it again for now.

Suggestion:
If you enter a sector, display a one-time subtitle message detailing what the scanner is detecting. Like so:
"Anomalies detected: 1x tuning crate, 3x nividium, 1x ship wreck".
Write this into message log for later reference, too.

The actual scanning process should be entirely player controlled:
You initiate it using a hotkey (the "lazy" way) or by starting a new command "Scan for anomaly" which runs in one of the two additional ship command slots (task 10 or 11).
Initiating the scan opens a calibration interface in which the player can now choose for which type of anomaly he wants to scan (or to stop an already running scan) and after that the "pinging" starts with the audio and subtitle feedback like it does now.
The scanning automatically ends if you either leave a sector, change ship or get within 10km of the anomaly.

Another nice feature would be if you could run this scanner on one of your own AI ships, too.
In a more simplistic way of course: if they spot an empty ship or tuning crate within their scanner range they send a one-time message to your log:
"Abandoned ship (M3) detected in sector X near north gate".

PS:
The active scanning process should really run as a ship task, not as a plugin...

[DrBullwinkle]

this scanner completely takes over the subtitles - messages sent by other scripts/missions/whatever are very easily lost/overlooked.

I understand the problem *sigh*. However, Detector is no more intrusive than any other script which uses subtitles. The problem is really in the way that subtitles work; they overwrite each other rather than queuing them up so that they all display.

I could make subtitles optional, and I will definitely reduce the chance of their display at closer ranges. Otherwise, there is not much that I can do about it -- that's just the way that subtitles work.

Suggestion:
If you enter a sector, display a one-time subtitle message detailing what the scanner is detecting. Like so:
"Anomalies detected: 1x tuning crate, 3x nividium, 1x ship wreck".
Write this into message log for later reference, too.

Wouldn't that make Detector too easy? It would increase the complexity of Detector substantially.

The actual scanning process should be entirely player controlled: ... Initiating the scan opens a calibration interface

Thanks. I will keep your suggestion in mind if I ever do a major overhaul.

The scanning automatically ends if you ... get within 10km of the anomaly.

There are times when pinging is desirable at close range. Ending the ping when the object is targeted and providing a Mute Button should solve all cases in which you might want to silence pings.

Another nice feature would be if you could run this scanner on one of your own AI ships ... if they spot an empty ship or tuning crate within their scanner range they send a one-time message to your log:
"Abandoned ship (M3) detected in sector X near north gate".

Actually, Detector includes a script that will find and write out all abandoned ships to a log file. Just run lib.bw.detector.count manually (from the Script Editor). Set the LogFoundShips parameter to True.

Also, other scripts can allow your AI ships to do the hunting, such as the optional behavior in Galaxy Explorers.

I wrote Detector specifically because that sort of behavior is too easy (and not very fun).

The active scanning process should really run as a ship task, not as a plugin.

Why do you say that? Artificial Life Plugins are technically superior to ship commands in several ways. For Detector's role, an ALP is superior in every way.

There are some cases where a ship command is required; Detector is not one of those cases.
.

[DrBullwinkle]

@Ovni: Did you intend to post the following question in this thread instead of in the TC Plots for AP thread?

Additional idea for this mod (seems like I keep getting them ) : detection of pirate bases and gates. Currently I'm using a mod that auto-maps sectors I enter, because I really don't like not knowing if I missed a gate. For pirates base I guess I'm a bit lazy because I could probably just try to follow pirate groups (but with RRF in AP they get wiped out pretty quick, don't they).

However if your detector could also look for as-yet undiscovered gates and stations, it would be nice. It would only make sense if you added a manual scanning hotkey, though, since otherwise the detector would go crazy upon entering an unexplored sector full of stations and gates.

I guess that in manual mode the player could calibrate the detector to focus on particular types of signatures to have some control over which objects will answer his radar ping.

The "litmus test" that I use to decide whether or not to add a particular object is:

• - Is it something that is tedious or boring to hunt in the vanilla game (rather than fun)? (ships/tunings)
  
  - Is it nearly impossible to find in the vanilla game? (nividium clusters)

Gates are different, I think. While there are several gates that are intentionally difficult to find, I think that it is important to the game that they are difficult to find. Here is a story to explain why I think this:

• In my first TC game, I played vanilla until I thought that I had found all of the sectors and had done as much as I could without help. One of the things that I added was Phanon Corporation, which led to a long-running "manhunt" because they hid their secret base behind a hidden gate that I had not stumbled across during my explorations. The chase was fun, and lasted for a couple of weeks.
  
  In the end, the hunt was spoiled by a slightly-bugged (now fixed) Galaxy Explorer that was too aggressive about finding gates. I am still a bit disappointed about it, because there is no way to go back in time to a point where I did not know that the gate existed.
  
  So I am very hesitant about finding gates. Yes, I can see the value. However, I am concerned that it could spoil your game far more easily than it could help your game.

Pirate Bases: Do you really care whether you find them all? They are mostly unimportant and they move around constantly.

Tip: Another way to find secret gates and bases is by doing Covert Follow-Ship Missions. Do them in remote sectors for best results.

Regarding configuring Detector, that is already easy to do! Just change the t file. It's the 8552 file and it is documented so that it should be easy to change. (The English t file is 8552-L044.xml, of course). You can even change it during a mission. Just Alt-Tab out, change the t file, then return to the game. Detector will respond to the changes immediately. There is no need to reload a saved game.

[Nacroma]

Hi, just a short message thrown in here. It seems that the newest version of Detector does not force the "XX ships found" message popup anymore. Aside of that, I don't really care about the latest changes. I was able to find the ships anyway and the new pings are kinda...loud, aren't they? Maybe it rather depends on the exact sound file than the volume of it, I don't know. Still, your works (Detector and A.S.S.) still "force" me to do a game or two per week. Would have stopped playing it for now otherwise, I suppose.

[Ovni]

@Ovni: Did you intend to post the following question in this thread instead of in the TC Plots for AP thread?

Yeah, that was definitely a mistake, glad to see the post made it to the intended destination nevertheless !

I understand your arguments about detecting gates eventually spoiling the game for some people and your doubts about detecting pirate stations being useful, but personally I'd use them. I suggest doing a plugin configuration menu using Cycrow's library that comes with the plugin manager, and leave detection of the stuff you think might be game-breaking off by default. You can even have the user activate something in a text file to get the option in the menu, if you want to put the tentation farther away .

Overall I don't find doing spirals in unexplored sectors particularly exciting, especially since often you see the stations/gates from afar but somehow your ship sensors cannot record what you see with the naked eye until you get real close.

Actually everything about exploration is rather contrived and artificial in X series... "only recently discovered sectors" that are actually only 20 min away from some core sector just make me laugh. And when the suspension of disbelief doesn't kick in, I have a hard time enjoying myself. So I just autoscan the whole thing and move on to the other stuff the game has to offer.

At least detector would offer me a way to ensure I haven't missed anything.

[DrBullwinkle]

your works (Detector and A.S.S.) still "force" me to do a game or two per week. Would have stopped playing it for now otherwise

Wow, it is cool that Detector and Abandoned Ship Spawner for AP have extended the game's lifetime for you!

Thanks for your helpful test reports, too. The new sounds are approximately the same volume as the "classic" Detector ping on my computer. If you feel like experimenting, you could try different sounds. But I cannot reproduce your report about different sound volumes, so I cannot do much about it. Sorry!

I don't find doing spirals in unexplored sectors particularly exciting

There is no reason for the player ship to do spirals. If you cannot see a gate with your eyes, then it is an intentionally obscured gate. You should not be able to find it easily. Perhaps you will come across it during a mission or some other circumstance. Until you do find the hidden gate, it should remain hidden, IMHO.

If you can see a distant gate with your eyes, then all you need is a fast scout to find out where it leads. Maybe add a Turbo Booster if you are impatient.

At least detector would offer me a way to ensure I haven't missed anything.

That's the rub. You should never be certain that you have found everything. You should have a good chance of finding the important things. But the game is better if you do not find everything. The game is only fun if it has a chance of beating you -- even if in small ways.

That is part of the reason that Abandoned Ship Spawner moves ships around. It is unlikely that you will ever find all of the ships that it spawns, but you will find more of them if you hunt often.

If you play the game long enough, you will find all of the important gates, and most of the rest. There are always clues or missions that will reveal them, if you keep your eyes open.

I understand your argument that different people play the game differently, and I could make it a configurable option. I will consider it, although my gut reaction is to avoid taking fun out of the game -- even if you have not yet discovered how much fun it can be.



Finally, if you absolutely want to skip all exploration-related fun, then why not use Galaxy Explorers and turn on the options to explore (and map) unexplored sectors? WARNING! I do NOT recommend that for most players. It will spoil some parts of the game (unless you have completed the same game in the past).

.

[Ovni]

Finally, if you absolutely want to skip all exploration-related fun, then why not use Galaxy Explorers and turn on the options to explore (and map) unexplored sectors?

I'd rather discover sectors myself and in an order that makes some sense, (otherwise I'd use the Reveal All Sectors cheat from Cycrow), so for now I've settled for memia's Auto-Scan Sector AL plugin, it scans completely every sector I enter. I do sometimes run the Galaxy Explorer instead on my own ship with the cinematic camera on, doubles as a screen saver and I takeover when I see someting interesting.

I found that in my previous playthrough of the Terran Plot I couldn't even find my way to the core sectors of the various races which I knew from X2, because I kept missing gates, and then the map looked like there was no exit left in the general direction I was looking for. I had to tediously backtrack through every known sector.
Also I missed some important stations (i.e. to buy very useful stuff) only because they were a bit farther than usual from the travel routes, and then when I was looking for that particular ware, guess what? Backtracking, yay!

[DrBullwinkle]

for now I've settled for memia's Auto-Scan Sector

Yeah, if you are going to do that, then I can see how Detector would be an improvement. You cheater.



OK, if I get the single ping system working, then I will add unexplored gates and stations as a configurable option. I will probably restrict those to the single ping method, because it could produce too many "false positives" for more traditional players.

Good?

And thanks for clarifying your point of view.
.

[Charon_A]

I have to agree with Nacroma, new ping sounds are too loud compared to the old subtle ones. Moreover, new direct facing ping is just like the "new message" sound which is quite confusing.
Dr BW, could you please revert to something like the original sounds?

[DrBullwinkle]

new ping sounds are too loud compared to the old subtle ones. Moreover, new direct facing ping is just like the "new message" sound which is quite confusing.

The original sound is unchanged. The new sounds have the same volume as the original sound on my machine. I don't know what I can change that will help you guys, other than remove the additional sounds altogether.

I had the same concern about the sonar-like sound (the one that sounds like a new message). However, Betty does not say "incoming message", so it really is not confusing in practice. At least, that was my experience.

There are not many sounds to work with; these are the only sounds that are anything like pings.



I suppose that I could try to add NEW sounds, if they really bother you. But please try to adjust your "effects" volume before I do that. Then you and Nacroma will have to do the testing, because I would just be guessing about volumes.
.

[Charon_A]

DrBW, I made a simple experiment, flew next to the abandoned ship and started to rotate around my Z axle. Both front and front-side pings are louder than rear and rear-side ticks, I doubt that my ears are playing tricks on me. Perhaps we have different perception of high/low freq. sounds.

But it doesn't really mattter - I'm kind of getting used to the way sounds are now The only suggestion is to make close range ticks less frequent and if there is another sound that sounds like ping but differs from incoming message - use that one. Thanks!

[DrBullwinkle]

Yeah, the ticks are slightly quieter than the pings, but the pings are all about the same, and even the variation in the tick sound is not huge. It is more likely that speakers are different than ears. I use headphones.

In any case, I cannot change the volumes of the sounds (unless I record new sounds). I am using the only available sounds that are anything like pings.

I will stop the pings after targeting the object and when in the space suit.

[ezra-r]

This mod sounds like a great addition, something that makes exploring more interesting!

[TouchMyNipple]

Is there a way to confugure what Detector detects? It's realy annoying when it starts detecting bailed ships in the middle of a fight while i switch missles with missle display (also shows description in subtitles). It's like i'd like to setup it only to ping for nividium and maybe tuning crates.
Or perhaps there's a hotkey for activating and deactivating it?

[DrBullwinkle]

Is there a way to confugure what Detector detects? ...
Or perhaps there's a hotkey for activating and deactivating it?

You can configure what Detector detects in the t file, which is documented to make the changes easy. Just change "Enable" to "Disable" (case sensitive).


Features planned for next version:

• - Mute Hotkey
  - Subtitles configurable (Enable/Disable)
  - Fewer Subtitle notices at close range
  - Stop pings when the object is targeted
  - Stop pings when in space suit
  - Stop pings when docked at a station

[dfm5000]

If detector can detect somthing how is it that radar can not. Is it searching for clingon cloaked ships?

[DrBullwinkle]

Anything that Detector can find can also be seen on the scanners.

Detector has longer range (but less precision) than the ship's scanners, so you may have to get closer to the target before it will show up on your scanner map.