[LIST] Streamlining X3 with ease of use modifications

[Gazz]

If you end up doing a TShips mod anyway, it's no problem to double-barrel the Mk1's cockpit laser.
Doesn't need any model change and the generator has never been much of a limiting factor on drones. Besides, it's just another number...

[DrBullwinkle]

If you end up doing a TShips mod

Oh. Yeah, that I can do. As you say, it's easy if you mod TShips.

But how can AP over-equip an MK1?

For the first couple of release phases, I would like to avoid doing a TShips mod, because there is no good way to distribute it.

Your MARS solution of an add-on that the user merges is the best plan that I have seen.

The main reason for modding TShips is to add repair lasers and MDS (required by Prospector) to fighter-class ships. Other than that, I think that we can get by without modding TShips.

As you say, the price and cargo for drones makes them overpowered in large numbers. The direct solution is to hard-limit the number that the ship can hold. That should be a more reliable solution than cargo space. No matter what you set the cargo space to, a Mammoth would be able to hold a lot without a hard limit.

[Teleth]

Preferably we want to avoid the player piloting the drones... I would like to avoid direct exploitation.

I was not thinking about exploitation. I was thinking about, "what is the difference between a carrier and a drone carrier?". If we use ships as "drones", then it is really a carrier. If it is really a carrier (that is well-managed), then why not let the player pilot the ships?

The main difference is that the drone carrier can't use whatever ships you want it to, that the drones are 100% tied and maintained by its carrier, limited in number and not replaceable by external sources. Not being able to pilot them is part of it being an automated drone ship as one of its limitations. You can't have both cheap and flexible, that REPLACES carriers and doesn't make DCs unique; unless you just want to make normal carrier software that makes it less effort and that works for me too haha.
The difference is not huge from a gameplay point of view though, yes.

It would probably take a new ship type to prevent them from being sold.

Why do you care whether the player sells a ship-type "drone"? Same as any other ship. If you are concerned about unfair profitssss, then that's easy: Just charge more for on-board replication than the resale value.

Drone ships would ideally be cheaper than the cost of the fully fledged drones/fighters simply because they are not only inflexible compared to an ordinary fighter wing but should be cheaper to produce due to their hard configuration.

One ordinary carrier can be a stop-point for hundreds of fighters; a drone carrier however can only manage a set amount which should not be interchangeable with other carriers. The drone carrier should be unable to take other ships on-board other than its mass produced offspring.

Losing a fighter on a normal carrier can be covered by factories in unlimited numbers (assuming you could be bothered paying for them and the logistics of equipping the damn things), but a drone carrier should have to reproduce them itself; with a real fighter, you are paying for its flexibility and potentially unlimited numbers.

Mass-production of drones is ideally what the drone carrier is good at and therefore should also have reasonably expendable assets that are not as effective as a real fighter wing, but not as expensive or as stupidly time-consuming.

Feels like I'm writing a religion here
Hopefully something in that rant was useful to you haha...

As for Tships itself, it shouldn't be too hard to merge the major mods.

How would you distribute that?

Remember, you have no control over the user's TShips file. It can be hacked. It can have .xsp ships installed. It can be from a mod. Certainly we do not want to overwrite it.

If I'm not mistaken TShips is just a plain text file, but very few people edit it manually. You'll find these in the larger mods like XRM- if I'm not mistaken, it shouldn't be hard to create a TC specific version, a TC/XRM version, an AP version, an AP/XRM version.

If I'm wrong, just ignore me; I don't know squat about TShips yet other than having to rip data out of it myself to add things in the MD.

=========================================================
A phased approach is beginning to form from this discussion:

1) Real drones for the first release. Mk1/Mk2/Keris. Get the basics working.

2) Ship-type "drones" with our loadouts.

3) Add-on for Repair Drones and other specialty types that we cannot make from vanilla ships.

4) MAYBE some sort of API that allows others to add their own types. Maybe.

Seems like a good approach, pretty much a re-write of a featureless LSDC first.

As you say, the price and cargo for drones makes them overpowered in large numbers. The direct solution is to hard-limit the number that the ship can hold. That should be a more reliable solution than cargo space. No matter what you set the cargo space to, a Mammoth would be able to hold a lot without a hard limit.

I think the real solution is to remove them and redo the whole thing because they are royally unbalanced.
An easier solution is to increase their size as you said, but this isn't initially well balanced either.

When a drone is deployed, does the drone itself know who deployed it? Assuming we could hook into the drones first command, we could always track the number deployed by a ship and change the drones race to unknown if there are too many. IIRC drones go 'free' if you leave the sector so they must track who actually dropped them at minimum.

At worst, we could have each drone eat into the owners laser and shield energy

It's beyond late here, I'm not sure if I'm even making sense anymore!

[Gazz]

No matter what you set the cargo space to, a Mammoth would be able to hold a lot without a hard limit.

Yes, but TL make terrible combat ships. =)
The really bad part about drones is that you can carry silly amounts on good combat ships, too.


Either way, that's why I think that the Drone = Ship approach of the new drones in AP is better. They can be limited far more easily.

Adding this to any convenient TFile gives them some sort of recognisable name...

Code: Select all

<page id="380017" title="Boardcomp. objects" descr="0" voice="yes">
 <t id="20151">{1000,101} {17,2911}(Argon Drone)</t>
 <t id="20161">{1000,102} {17,2911}(Boron Drone)</t>
 <t id="20171">{1000,104} {17,2911}(Para Drone)</t>
 <t id="20181">{1000,103} {17,2911}(Split Drone)</t>
 <t id="20191">{1000,105} {17,2911}(Tel Drone)</t>
 <t id="20201">{1000,118} {17,2911}(Ter Drone)</t>
</page>

The reason why this wasn't included in AP is that it isn't correct grammar in every supported language.

[DrBullwinkle]

Ok. But, then, what is "drone" about them? The line between "well-managed carrier fighter" and "ship-type drone" is hard to find.

[Gazz]

Ok. But, then, what is "drone" about them? The line between "well-managed carrier fighter" and "ship-type drone" is hard to find.

For the AP drones, it's
- extremely limited laser selection
- few if any usable missiles
- tiny cargo space and / or cargo class allowing for practically no utility
The "scout" type drones have the scanner preinstalled, I think, so they don't need a high cargo class.
- low shields
- shields / lasers / minimum software would be created along with "producing" the drone. Otherwise the whole concept would be a bust.

While some (teladi, I think) can use ammo-based lasers and/or missiles, these consumables would still have to be stocked by the carrier.
The rest are care-free happy go lucky ships.
That was my plan anyway. =)

[DrBullwinkle]

unless you just want to make normal carrier software that makes it less effort and that works for me too haha.
The difference is not huge from a gameplay point of view though, yes.

Exactly.

Drone ships would ideally be cheaper than the cost of the fully fledged drones/fighters simply because they are not only inflexible compared to an ordinary fighter wing but should be cheaper to produce due to their hard configuration.

Man, you would be a terrible salesman.

MY drones are premium priced because the convenience of on-board replication is worth twice the price. Especially to our more powerful and elite clientele, who have the resources and connections to be able to obtain one of our rare but high-performance patrol crafts. With our soon-to-be-legendary Griffon Drone Carrier, you will soon be living your dream life -- to enjoy peace through superior firepower!

Hopefully something in that rant was useful to you

It is useful, thank you. But I am not sure that I "buy" it. Yet.

If I'm not mistaken TShips is just a plain text file

You are not exactly wrong, but you are not thinking through the ramifications. Many players mod TShips. It may be the most popular request on the forum. Any TShips that you/we distribute will wreck the games of players with modded TShips.

If you think the Xenon are dangerous, just wait until you break the saved games of a few dozen addicted X3 players.

pretty much a re-write of a featureless LSDC first.

Yes. Unless Gazz persuades me that the AP approach is better. So far, he is not winning on that front. But he knows more about scripting than I do, by several orders of magnitude. So I might wind up agreeing with him after I try to do it my way.

When a drone is deployed, does the drone itself know who deployed it?

Depends on how you deploy it. If you eject from cargo, then no. If we attach a script to it before we launch it, then it could, yes.

we could always track the number deployed by a ship and change the drones race to unknown if there are too many.

If we track the number deployed, then why would there ever be too many?

It's beyond late here, I'm not sure if I'm even making sense anymore!

Where are you? Oz? It is still early in most other English-speaking countries.

[DrBullwinkle]

what is "drone" about them?

For the AP drones, it's ... *snip*

OK, I can half understand that vision. Really just a light carrier?

If so, then why does it need special software? Aren't we just talking about making better carrier-management software?

That was my plan anyway. =)

Oh! Are/were you planning to write this? If so, I am sure that you would do it much faster than I. Maybe better, too.

Maybe.

Seriously, though, don't let me spoil your fun if you are bored. I am still trying to find/understand/assemble/document an application wrapper, so it may take a while before I get the finished product done.

[Teleth]

Depends on how you deploy it. If you eject from cargo, then no. If we attach a script to it before we launch it, then it could, yes.

But when you eject it from cargo, it still goes neutral when you leave the sector.. this surely must mean it is tracked. Though not necessarily accessible, of course.

It's beyond late here, I'm not sure if I'm even making sense anymore!

Where are you? Oz? It is still early in most other English-speaking countries.

New Zealand.. 6.42am. early, yes. yes it is!

Spent most of the night trying to fix UFJD issues, thankfully it was productive and I can finally go back to actually adding content instead of bugfixing.

If we track the number deployed, then why would there ever be too many?

Because no one decided to actually try to re-balance drones I guess, or it is impossible to do via this method.

[DrBullwinkle]

But when you eject it from cargo, it still goes neutral when you leave the sector..

Good point. I do not pretend to understand all of the drones scripts/behavior.

New Zealand

Nice! Heinlein called Christchurch the "most beautiful city in the world". That stuck in my brain, for some reason.

Spent most of the night trying to fix UFJD issues, thankfully it was productive

Good. Your concept sounds fun.

[Gazz]

If so, then why does it need special software? Aren't we just talking about making better carrier-management software?

The drones would need stuff like Fight 1/2 software to be eligible for useful fight commands.

Oh! Are/were you planning to write this? If so, I am sure that you would do it much faster than I. Maybe better, too.

Nah, not really. I'm currently taking a hiatus from X3, which typically lasts a few months. =)

When a drone is deployed, does the drone itself know who deployed it?

Depends on how you deploy it. If you eject from cargo, then no.

Err... yes.

Dumped drones (manually or by signal_attacked) start with the "protect ship" command and you can read their script command target.
If you catch them with a signal of your own, you grab them before the player (or a script) can change that.

In one of my scripts - I'm thinking it is one I never released - I used this to limit the number of drones that a TS can automatically deploy.
In the vanilla game, there is no limit whatsoever to the number of drones an attacked TS can drop in consecutive turns.
The dropped drones were tracked in an array on the ship.
If the script was set to "6" and the number of drones deployed by this ship exceeded 6, the closest n-6 drones were instantly put back into the cargo hold.
That method also works to limit manual dumping so you can in fact limit the number of Mk2 drones a ship (or a fleet in a sector) can have active at once. Sneaky, eh?

[A5PECT]

Did you create a way to handle different drones in different manners? Say, only allowing MkII or Keris drones to be deployed 4 at a time?

What about different ship classes? Can you set up larger ships to have deployment limits with higher numbers of maximum drones?

Thinking about it more, I sort of want there to be a limit to the number of drones a ship can control simultaneously, rather than how many can be launched at a time (or in addition to it.) Something like each ship having a drone control unit only having enough processing power to command a certain number of drones from a ship depending on its class.

Or maybe even make drone control units a ware, and the more control units onboard a ship the more drones it can control.

Although I suppose that would complicate the use of drones by the AI, as you'd have to create something like CWP or EES to make sure NPC ships spawn with DCU's. Then you'd have to do that with every ship in the universe...

Or not. It could be randomized.

I don't know.

[Gazz]

Did you create a way to handle different drones in different manners? Say, only allowing MkII or Keris drones to be deployed 4 at a time?

I only put in a hard cap so a UT TS wouldn't dump 12 drones to distract a single pirate attacker.

What about different ship classes? Can you set up larger ships to have deployment limits with higher numbers of maximum drones?

I just pointed out that the feature works in principle.
Which restrictions you put in is only a matter of design.

Or maybe even make drone control units a ware, and the more control units onboard a ship the more drones it can control.

You could make these built-in wares that are not for sale anywhere in the universe.
Hey presto - specialised drone carriers. =P

Built-in wares ignore cargo classes and - I think - require no cargo space.

That way you could make them reaaaally big so they could sometimes be used on other ships as well but only with ginormous cargo holds.

[jack775544]

{link removed beacuse of bad kudos }
and
Editing in progress
When (if) installing the UFJD just place it in the director file and delete the words in capitals. The names are pretty self explanitary for what they do. For the DC scripts I pulled all of the relavent files out of the XTC scripts directory (sorry if I missed any)

[DrBullwinkle]

I'm currently taking a hiatus from X3

For a guy on hiatus, you've been pretty busy. Didn't you post two new scripts in the past week?

Dumped drones (manually or by signal_attacked) start with the "protect ship" command

Oh, right. I knew that. As you say, it is only temporary.

Regarding signal_attacked -- is it only TS- and TL-class ships that dump drones? Which script does that? I have seen them not dump enough, but never the other way around. Maybe I was not watching closely enough.

If you catch them with a signal of your own, you grab them before the player (or a script) can change that. ... The dropped drones were tracked in an array on the ship.

Cool. That is an interesting alternative to my idea, which does a similar count, but limits the number of drones that the ship can own. I will give this some thought.

[Gazz]

For a guy on hiatus, you've been pretty busy. Didn't you post two new scripts in the past week? :)

At least let me keep the illusion that I can stop anytime!

Regarding signal_attacked -- is it only TS- and TL-class ships that dump drones? Which script does that? I have seen them not dump enough, but never the other way around. Maybe I was not watching closely enough.

It's in one of the vanilla signal scripts.
There's only a few of those. Easy to find.

[DrBullwinkle]

It's in one of the vanilla signal scripts.
There's only a few of those.

That shows how much I know. I did not know that there are *any* signal scripts. I thought signals were "cooked in". But now I see that they are ship.signal scripts. Thanks.

[Gazz]

That shows how much I know. I did not know that there are *any* signal scripts. I thought signals were "cooked in". But now I see that they are ship.signal scripts.

All "behaviour" and decision making is scripted. All of it.

Very low level stuff like the actual maneuver of evading or the target lead prediction when firing a laser - that's typically hardcoded for speed reasons.

[jack775544]

{removed link}

[DrBullwinkle]

(resolved)