Old Steam Poll posts split and 'archived'

[GCU Grey Area]

You can disable the auto-update at anytime, this has already been said so many times in this thread.

As I understand the situation I would not however be able to maintain a library of all the patches released & then patch a new installation to a specific level depending upon what I want to do in that game (or what mods I want to use in the case of patch/mod conflicts). If it were possible to tell Steam that I'd like to patch a game to a specific level (e.g. patch only to 1.5 even if a 1.6 patch exists) I'd have fewer objections to the service. Unfortunately I don't believe that is the case. As it is Steam takes away too much control while providing nothing that I'm at all interested in (online purchases, chat, achievements, etc).

[chew-ie]

Well the reality of this is that in 2009, Steam was listed as having 25 million accounts with 10 million of those having active Steam Community profiles. Their peak usage at that time was 2.5 million concurrent users.

Today, the graph on their website shows peak usage close to 4 million. You do the math and let me know if it looks like digital distribution and Steam are going anywhere in the near future.

[Assumption]
2011, 50 million accounts, 4 million active users

Impressive, no doubt. Still we don´t know the overall number of "active gamers" to come to a conclusion. 50 million - that´s a bit more then half of the german population. In the global scope, that might be a damn good figure, or a poor one - we don´t know.

Growth rate is, as already stated, impressive, but not unexpected. Leaving no options for customers, such rates are part of the business model. If anything, then it is a shame that such constraints actually work. Again, in my book, that is. More detail on "no options": Grabbing all popular and promising games, lock them up in the Steam safe prevents customers from choosing a different distribution method.

While the near future might look good for Steam, I doubt that the market will benefit from that in the long run - especially once the other big players kick back. And basing a system on restrictions and baits (aka great features of the platform for both users and developer-publisher chain) might crash one day.

About digital distribution in general: There are many limiting factors which have to considered - like (global) broadband availability and development of it´s infrastructure, power generation & distribution (again, global scale), world market & stability. Distributing games, music and videos excusivley via internet might not be as possible as many seem to think.

[the-danzorz]

You can disable the auto-update at anytime, this has already been said so many times in this thread.

As I understand the situation I would not however be able to maintain a library of all the patches released & then patch a new installation to a specific level depending upon what I want to do in that game (or what mods I want to use in the case of patch/mod conflicts). If it were possible to tell Steam that I'd like to patch a game to a specific level (e.g. patch only to 1.5 even if a 1.6 patch exists) I'd have fewer objections to the service. Unfortunately I don't believe that is the case. As it is Steam takes away too much control while providing nothing that I'm at all interested in (online purchases, chat, achievements, etc).

There is an option, its called Game Backup. Just keep a backup of the game on the different patch versions and run them as you see fit.

[TTD]

Steam doesn't mess up PCs unless installed incorrectly,

If you follow the way the installer works,then it should install correctly.
If you have followed procedure and it messes up you PC,then it is the Steam installer,not you,that is at fault.

[the-danzorz]

Steam doesn't mess up PCs unless installed incorrectly,

If you follow the way the installer works,then it should install correctly.
If you have followed procedure and it messes up you PC,then it is the Steam installer,not you,that is at fault.

Incorrectly, meaning a hardware failer half way, power cut, driver flips out, or the PC is in such a bad state and filled with virus's that it stops half way and causes issues. (like when installing any software it can get corrupt due to many factors)

I meant factors from PC maintaince and health, to faulty hardware and powercuts etc.

[VincentTH]

You can disable the auto-update at anytime, this has already been said so many times in this thread.

As I understand the situation I would not however be able to maintain a library of all the patches released & then patch a new installation to a specific level depending upon what I want to do in that game (or what mods I want to use in the case of patch/mod conflicts). If it were possible to tell Steam that I'd like to patch a game to a specific level (e.g. patch only to 1.5 even if a 1.6 patch exists) I'd have fewer objections to the service. Unfortunately I don't believe that is the case. As it is Steam takes away too much control while providing nothing that I'm at all interested in (online purchases, chat, achievements, etc).

There is an option, its called Game Backup. Just keep a backup of the game on the different patch versions and run them as you see fit.

Does not work. As soon as you start the backup game, Steam would want to patch it to newest version BEFORE you can play,

[the-danzorz]

You can disable the auto-update at anytime, this has already been said so many times in this thread.

As I understand the situation I would not however be able to maintain a library of all the patches released & then patch a new installation to a specific level depending upon what I want to do in that game (or what mods I want to use in the case of patch/mod conflicts). If it were possible to tell Steam that I'd like to patch a game to a specific level (e.g. patch only to 1.5 even if a 1.6 patch exists) I'd have fewer objections to the service. Unfortunately I don't believe that is the case. As it is Steam takes away too much control while providing nothing that I'm at all interested in (online purchases, chat, achievements, etc).

There is an option, its called Game Backup. Just keep a backup of the game on the different patch versions and run them as you see fit.

Does not work. As soon as you start the backup game, Steam would want to patch it to newest version BEFORE you can play,

i have portable steam version going with 4 versions of X:TC on it, All with different mods that conflicted with each other, so i ran them differently, also with a standalone version (vanilla version). Works perfectly fine and you just disable auto-backup as always...

[Incubi]

While I think that XR should be the exception for steam haters due to priorities! I do not want to see an end to digital download debate, we should have an influence on how it develops.

Priorities however should go into XR be mad at Ego if you want, but there is nothing like the X!





Wow texting is hard lol, next post when back on PC <3

[TTD]

When drive controllers and sound cards started to come integrated on motherboards, a lot of hardcore enthusiasts swore that it was a bad thing and it was just another point of failure for your system which would cause you to go through motherboards faster etc. Turns out that no one cares about that stuff any more and the more things we can integrate on motherboards(and in processors) these days, the better.

And yet,when I read reviews about PCs having on-board graphics on CPU or motherboard,they always say that the rigs are not good enough for the latest high resolution and graphics effects based games.

Yeah, that's TODAYs Games! he was referring to YEARS Back.

The point I am making is that even today,with GPU/CPU combined processors,the same applies. They are no good for the latest games.Not even X3TC if you want the full graphics options.

[StarSword]

Let's take this apart one piece at at time:

I see where you are getting at, but its also not valid in my opinion.

If other developers have found a more effective way to:

Release
Update
Manage
Support
Advertise
Protect

Their game all in one solution, why would they not do it. Simply because you don't agree with the software. Its total madness and not valid at all unless your PC conflicts with steam in some odd way.

• Release: I've got no problem with online sales. I have a problem with online-only sales because I can't access them. One of the biggest beefs the anti-Steamers have is that it cuts off X-fans who have lousy Internet. The ISPs want you to think that everyone has high speed Internet. Even in industrialized nations, that is not the case. (We don't even have cell coverage at my house.) Downloading a game the size of X3, whose memory usage can be more than 3GB (never mind actual on-disc space), takes hours on a high-speed connection. How long would it take on a 150kbps satellite (or a 3G dongle) that throttles you to 6kbps if you go over a 250MB download limit?
• Update: See above. Some of X3's patches are hundreds of megabytes, well beyond the capabilities of the Internet connection some of us are stuck with. I had to make a special trip to the computer lab at my college to download them. If I had to use Steam, I would be stuck, because I don't play on a laptop. Downloading the patches would require disconnecting my custom gaming tower and driving it all the way to Chapel Hill or Durham.
• Manage: Manage what?
• Support: You ever visited the Tech Support forum? I have. Instead of getting the runaround that "it's not our fault, talk to the game maker", I get a solution to the problem inside of three or four posts. It's way better than the horror stories I've heard about Steam's lousy excuse for a customer service department. All you need for support is an e-mail address or telephone. DLC
• Advertise: No problem here.
• Protect: Protect from what? Malware? If people are having malware problems, their antivirus software is screwed up. Piracy? Reality check: determined-enough individuals will eventually find a way around anything, even Steam DRM (if they haven't already). And the cloud is not secure.

You have the same control of the game, never have to re-install, easier to backup and keep safe and also if you want the latest content, get it.

How is it easier to back up? And for downloadable content, there's such a thing as web hosting where you can download it from the website. Oh, and Bethesda released the DLCs for Oblivion on disc.

Steam is not necessary for any of those.

Also unlock Achievements for progress and showing hard challenges completed etc.

So we're using Steam to get bragging rights now? Maybe some people care about "achievements". I don't. I care about actually playing the game. You know, building factories? Making s***loads of money from trade? Planting boots in Xenon backside? Roleplaying that I'm a deep-cover ATF operative in the Commonwealth?

These are the things that make a game enjoyable. Achievements, Steam or otherwise, are not necessary. Try again.

This isn't just about money, but money is always a factor, as said above steam is easier for them to do a lot. It also benefits users a lot, as long as they are well informed on what steam can and cannot do. You don't lose a feature other then a phyical disc and 1 program is now running in the background, other then the OLD DRM that was with X2 which ALSO runs in the background before the patch came out.

So your simply replacing 1 DRM for another, but one allows you to access thousands of games, friends, content, updated and news related to what you want.

Its a better option, period.

Or, they could release it simultaneously on a DVD, no Steam required, and copy-protect the disc. Is that really so hard? Only about a year ago, Blizzard did it with StarCraft II. DVDs ARE NOT OBSOLETE!

Another problem people have with Steam include the Terms and Conditions, which are US-based. People who do not live under American jurisdiction (as in, the majority of Germany-based Egosoft's customers) sometimes have problems with this. They can tell you more than I can.

Non-Steam XR release or we won't buy!

[Asmodae]

It is restricting the used game market, and i happen to agree with it. It supports the developers and some need the support to continue.

This is our disagreement then.

I would argue that 2nd game sales do in fact support the developers.
AN example: Say I buy a lot of new games. I can buy x number of games on my game budget. If I resell them for 50% retail, then I can buy 1.5X new games. So now I have a used gamer and a new gamer both have played my game. They spread the word (good games and bad games). When I release my expansion/sequal, my potential 1st round fan-base is enlarged. The game company's loyal customer base has grown.

Every 2nd hand game sale does not translate into a new game sale. It might translate into a different entertainment venue entirely or just a different platform (i.e. film/console). So all those 2nd hand game sales are putting dollars into the 1st hand buyers hands to buy more new games. They also fund retail outlets where games can get another round of exposure and promoting (which has enormous value). Those retail outlets often employ gamers that buy lots of games! That extra money flowing around the games market is useful to the publishers. Like I said, the people that don't benefit from it, are the ones that should go out of business for releasing products the market cannot support.

There are cases where lack of 2nd hand sales drives users to formats that don't have the restrictions (consoles), or out of the industry entirely and they go to other hobbies (board games are making a comeback pretty hardcore).

Another example: I used to buy games at full price. Then after a short time watch those games go on sale for cheap, that included expansions, DLC, and content packs. This is the so-called 'long tail' of marketing, trying to capture every available dollar in the market at every conceivable price point. After seeing this happen a few times I recognize it, and now I no longer buy games at full price (with a few very rare exceptions, which XR WAS going to be one). The ultimate cost of this marketing strategy is SHRINKING the total number of dollars available in the market. Used game sales grows that back up, by helping people offset the opening cost of the game. People (in general) aren't stupid and are always looking to maximize the value of every dollar they spend. They know the game is gonna get cheap, and include extras later so they see lots of value in waiting and the total dollars available to that game shrink.

We find Steam doing the same thing, shrinking the total number of dollars someone is willing to spend on an individual game due to the long-tail marketing strategy and aggressive (but short term) sale prices. These practices are blatantly hostile to users and the users know it instinctively. They spend their money accordingly by being increasingly aggressive in demanding lower prices and watching for the sales. In the end, the publishers hope to make this back with volume of sales, but to do that they have to widen their player base, 'dumb-down' the game as it were, target the casual market, etc. The game company's loyal customer base is virtually non-existent in these scenarios, and the game company is constantly chasing after new customers while throwing away existing ones.

All these trends are easily visible in the gaming industry, and that's one of the reasons there's been so many suspicions that XR was going to head in that direction. Even if people don't recognize why, they know they're starting to see a pattern, and they don't like it. I just wish we could address the root cause.

[TTD]

Steam doesn't mess up PCs unless installed incorrectly,

If you follow the way the installer works,then it should install correctly.
If you have followed procedure and it messes up you PC,then it is the Steam installer,not you,that is at fault.

Incorrectly, meaning a hardware failer half way, power cut, driver flips out, or the PC is in such a bad state and filled with virus's that it stops half way and causes issues. (like when installing any software it can get corrupt due to many factors)

I meant factors from PC maintaince and health, to faulty hardware and powercuts etc.

I may be in the minority here,but I have always followed the advice to do a full maintenance check and defrag before installing new software.
Power-cuts , although not unheard of , do not happen on a regular basis in the UK. I mean ,I think we had one last year some time time in this area,but can't remember the one before that,as it was so long ago.

[Shimrod]

When drive controllers and sound cards started to come integrated on motherboards, a lot of hardcore enthusiasts swore that it was a bad thing and it was just another point of failure for your system which would cause you to go through motherboards faster etc. Turns out that no one cares about that stuff any more and the more things we can integrate on motherboards(and in processors) these days, the better.

And yet,when I read reviews about PCs having on-board graphics on CPU or motherboard,they always say that the rigs are not good enough for the latest high resolution and graphics effects based games.

To round that off on the audio side, I did various listening tests recently with the motherboard HD audio chip versus Xonar d2x, soundblaster live (via Logitech Z-5500 speakers), and a Fiio E7 USB DAC into sennheiser 238 headphones. Over games, blu ray and music. I found the HD chip worse in all cases, even though PowerDVD sends it full HD audio for blu rays. It caused lag in Supcom:FA, not present with soundblaster swapped in.

Its certainly liveable with and produced plausible positional sound in oblivion. But it certainly doesn't represent an equivalent option to dedicated components.

[the-danzorz]

When drive controllers and sound cards started to come integrated on motherboards, a lot of hardcore enthusiasts swore that it was a bad thing and it was just another point of failure for your system which would cause you to go through motherboards faster etc. Turns out that no one cares about that stuff any more and the more things we can integrate on motherboards(and in processors) these days, the better.

And yet,when I read reviews about PCs having on-board graphics on CPU or motherboard,they always say that the rigs are not good enough for the latest high resolution and graphics effects based games.

Yeah, that's TODAYs Games! he was referring to YEARS Back.

The point I am making is that even today,with GPU/CPU combined processors,the same applies. They are no good for the latest games.Not even X3TC if you want the full graphics options.

Motherboards nowadays with ONBOARD Graphics cannot run games today. Also applies for any field, such as editing, art, etc That is why they come with 1-4 Graphic Cards slots for X-Fire and SLI, also why we have i7 Processors and such. So any task that requires decent hardware, such as games, movie editing, art & Graphics, development all requires additional hardware to run. Not really sure what your point is.. a motherboard isn't designed to do everything. Just the "home" browse the web use is for motherboards and setups like that. But that's why Tablets are now being released to replace them.

Let's take this apart one piece at at time:

I see where you are getting at, but its also not valid in my opinion.

If other developers have found a more effective way to:

Release
Update
Manage
Support
Advertise
Protect

Their game all in one solution, why would they not do it. Simply because you don't agree with the software. Its total madness and not valid at all unless your PC conflicts with steam in some odd way.

• Release: I've got no problem with online sales. I have a problem with online-only sales because I can't access them. One of the biggest beefs the anti-Steamers have is that it cuts off X-fans who have lousy Internet. The ISPs want you to think that everyone has high speed Internet. Even in industrialized nations, that is not the case. (We don't even have cell coverage at my house.) Downloading a game the size of X3, whose memory usage can be more than 3GB (never mind actual on-disc space), takes hours on a high-speed connection. How long would it take on a 150kbps satellite (or a 3G dongle) that throttles you to 6kbps if you go over a 250MB download limit?
• Update: See above. Some of X3's patches are hundreds of megabytes, well beyond the capabilities of the Internet connection some of us are stuck with. I had to make a special trip to the computer lab at my college to download them. If I had to use Steam, I would be stuck, because I don't play on a laptop. Downloading the patches would require disconnecting my custom gaming tower and driving it all the way to Chapel Hill or Durham.
• Manage: Manage what?
• Support: You ever visited the Tech Support forum? I have. Instead of getting the runaround that "it's not our fault, talk to the game maker", I get a solution to the problem inside of three or four posts. It's way better than the horror stories I've heard about Steam's lousy excuse for a customer service department. All you need for support is an e-mail address or telephone. DLC
• Advertise: No problem here.
• Protect: Protect from what? Malware? If people are having malware problems, their antivirus software is screwed up. Piracy? Reality check: determined-enough individuals will eventually find a way around anything, even Steam DRM (if they haven't already). And the cloud is not secure.

You have the same control of the game, never have to re-install, easier to backup and keep safe and also if you want the latest content, get it.

How is it easier to back up? And for downloadable content, there's such a thing as web hosting where you can download it from the website. Oh, and Bethesda released the DLCs for Oblivion on disc.

Steam is not necessary for any of those.

Also unlock Achievements for progress and showing hard challenges completed etc.

So we're using Steam to get bragging rights now? Maybe some people care about "achievements". I don't. I care about actually playing the game. You know, building factories? Making s***loads of money from trade? Planting boots in Xenon backside? Roleplaying that I'm a deep-cover ATF operative in the Commonwealth?

These are the things that make a game enjoyable. Achievements, Steam or otherwise, are not necessary. Try again.

This isn't just about money, but money is always a factor, as said above steam is easier for them to do a lot. It also benefits users a lot, as long as they are well informed on what steam can and cannot do. You don't lose a feature other then a phyical disc and 1 program is now running in the background, other then the OLD DRM that was with X2 which ALSO runs in the background before the patch came out.

So your simply replacing 1 DRM for another, but one allows you to access thousands of games, friends, content, updated and news related to what you want.

Its a better option, period.

Or, they could release it simultaneously on a DVD, no Steam required, and copy-protect the disc. Is that really so hard? Only about a year ago, Blizzard did it with StarCraft II. DVDs ARE NOT OBSOLETE!

Another problem people have with Steam include the Terms and Conditions, which are US-based. People who do not live under American jurisdiction (as in, the majority of Germany-based Egosoft's customers) sometimes have problems with this. They can tell you more than I can.

Non-Steam XR release or we won't buy!

Release: As for release, there still MIGHT be a DVD copy for steamworks that you can buy and install by Disc, otherwise i agree it is a step backwards for a lot of users and i can understand that. I am only on 1meg down myself, so i am in the same position as everyone else if there is no Disc version.

Update: Seriously... read the thread, you can disable auto update... its just easier too update for those who want too.


Manage: You can backup, restore, make portable, manage updates etc where as the developer can better manage their products, instead of focusing on 2 release patches, 1 for dvd disc, 1 for steam. they can just focus on steam.


Protect: Steam helps to stop piracy as it is also a form of DRM, that DOESN'T require the disc in the drive.

Backup There is a Backup tool, you can run it and it turns the game into giant files that you can burn into discs. Steam can then install the game from those discs. For example if you select the Backup CD. it will backup the game into 8 or so files for CDs or if you backup to DVD or Blueray one or two files that you then burn to disc. Which then act as Disc 1 and Disc 2, as the normal version would. which INCLUDES all your Addons.

Steam is ALSO portable, meaning you can backup the whole of steam into a new harddrive, external, usb or sata / SSD etc. Which you can then run steam purely off that HD that doesn't have your OS onit. Which means you can take the game to a friends house without having to install anything.

As for the rest of your post, it seems more paranoid and not worth replying too

[VincentTH]

You can disable the auto-update at anytime, this has already been said so many times in this thread.

As I understand the situation I would not however be able to maintain a library of all the patches released & then patch a new installation to a specific level depending upon what I want to do in that game (or what mods I want to use in the case of patch/mod conflicts). If it were possible to tell Steam that I'd like to patch a game to a specific level (e.g. patch only to 1.5 even if a 1.6 patch exists) I'd have fewer objections to the service. Unfortunately I don't believe that is the case. As it is Steam takes away too much control while providing nothing that I'm at all interested in (online purchases, chat, achievements, etc).

There is an option, its called Game Backup. Just keep a backup of the game on the different patch versions and run them as you see fit.

Does not work. As soon as you start the backup game, Steam would want to patch it to newest version BEFORE you can play,

i have portable steam version going with 4 versions of X:TC on it, All with different mods that conflicted with each other, so i ran them differently, also with a standalone version (vanilla version). Works perfectly fine and you just disable auto-backup as always...

X3:TC is very different than X:R. X3TC is a standalone game that does not require Steam. The X3TC+Steam combination is just for key registtration.
X:R + Steamworks (emphasis on Steamworks API) is a different beast. It will require the Steamworks library every time one plays the game.

[Asmodae]

With all respect we are discussing the fact that "Steam prevents 2nd-hand sale", not whether selling Steam account is legal. There is a big difference between prevention of the act and the legality of the act.

What the...?

None of this discussion makes any sense unless considered in the context of legal behavior. As an aside: There are ongoing efforts to turn copyright violations into criminal acts so not only would your proposed solution have fines and get all your other steam accounts and their games banned (as today), but also jail time (as several legislators have proposed). I don't consider that a justifiable argument that Steam doesn't prevent 2nd hand game selling.

[the-danzorz]

You can disable the auto-update at anytime, this has already been said so many times in this thread.

As I understand the situation I would not however be able to maintain a library of all the patches released & then patch a new installation to a specific level depending upon what I want to do in that game (or what mods I want to use in the case of patch/mod conflicts). If it were possible to tell Steam that I'd like to patch a game to a specific level (e.g. patch only to 1.5 even if a 1.6 patch exists) I'd have fewer objections to the service. Unfortunately I don't believe that is the case. As it is Steam takes away too much control while providing nothing that I'm at all interested in (online purchases, chat, achievements, etc).

There is an option, its called Game Backup. Just keep a backup of the game on the different patch versions and run them as you see fit.

Does not work. As soon as you start the backup game, Steam would want to patch it to newest version BEFORE you can play,

i have portable steam version going with 4 versions of X:TC on it, All with different mods that conflicted with each other, so i ran them differently, also with a standalone version (vanilla version). Works perfectly fine and you just disable auto-backup as always...

X3:TC is very different than X:R. X3TC is a standalone game that does not require Steam. The X3TC+Steam combination is just for key registtration.
X:R + Steamworks (emphasis on Steamworks API) is a different beast. It will require the Steamworks library every time one plays the game.

The same still should apply, you can maintain more then one version of the same game using steam...

[Shimrod]

Protect: Steam helps to stop piracy as it is also a form of DRM, that DOESN'T require the disc in the drive.

One of the areas where Egosoft has been brilliant in the past is patching away the CD check after a year or two.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Steamworks will never be patched out of the game.

[the-danzorz]

Protect: Steam helps to stop piracy as it is also a form of DRM, that DOESN'T require the disc in the drive.

One of the areas where Egosoft has been brilliant in the past is patching away the CD check after a year or two.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Steamworks will never be patched out of the game.

Its only after the first year and a half that the sales margin wouldn't increase much anyway, so they can afford it without losing sales

Thats correct

[Cycrow]

Well the reality of this is that in 2009, Steam was listed as having 25 million accounts with 10 million of those having active Steam Community profiles. Their peak usage at that time was 2.5 million concurrent users.

Today, the graph on their website shows peak usage close to 4 million. You do the math and let me know if it looks like digital distribution and Steam are going anywhere in the near future.

[Assumption]
2011, 50 million accounts, 4 million active users

its not actually 4 million active users, its 4 million peak users, theres a big difference.

the 4 million is the peak amount of users playing games at the same time during the day. Ie, today, at steams busiest period, there was about 3.9million users online at the same time.

the actually active user count would be much higher than that.