[X3LU] Mayhem 3.21b

[pigsarehairy]

Hello is there anywhere i can find what mayhem add/changes to base litcube, i'm having difficulty finding a complete list of features, thanks

There is no complete list. Afaik there only is the summary about main features (Mahyem 3 only) on its ModDB main page
Details are in the ingame encyclopedia.

Thanks for the reply, i'm wondering which one i should try, mayhem 2 or 3?

[Joubarbe]

If you don't want procedural galaxies, try Mayhem 2 first.

[Edna]

I recommend playing Mayhem 2 first for a few days. It was very solid and had only few issues, which really weren't big. I enjoyed Mayhem 2 very much and exploring the plots was worth it.

In the meantime, Joubarbe is tweaking and fixing the remaining issues with Mayhem 3. Mayhem 3 is already superb at this point, and people playing Mayhem 2 shouldn't rely too much on what they learned in Mayhem 2, but Mayhem 2 is teaching well what the idea behind Mayhem is: to go full first-person-strategy-game. Mayhem 3 feels a bit too rough for starters, but that might just be my perspective, which is based on playing from-scratch-games in Mayhem 3.

[pigsarehairy]

Thanks for the input, for now ill try mayhem 2

[Hector0x]

i'm wondering which one i should try, mayhem 2 or 3?

In my opinion these are the most important differences:

Litcube:
- the main enemy (OCV) sits in the upper right corner of the galaxy. You never have to engage into any combat before you decide to attack the OCV. There is a very very long time limit.
- you generally only need to find the most effective way to generate a single resource (money). It can buy you all you need to defeat the enemy. Ships, factories, weapons, missles, etc..
- you can crunch thousands of factories in Saturn Complex Hubs and put them in a single sector. The output of this sector is likely bigger than the rest of the economy in the whole gameworld combined.
- besides OCV, the player, and phanon corporation, there is zero change in the galaxy. Split/Boron and Argon/Paranid fight, but it's border skirmishes at best.

Mayhem 2
- the main enemy scales to your progress and he comes directly into your sectors. You have control over how powerful he will be, but at some point you have to engage into combat. If you want it or not. Like in Litcube you need to expand your industrial military power to survive long term. This reality hits you sooner than it does in Litcube, but it scales down to you so it can be managed.
- you can't buy ships or stations. Only earning money won't cut it. You have to secure multiple resources which partly depend on the map you got (randomized asteroid fields and sun intensity). Producing your own ships and factories is important and you also get to do this sooner than in Litcube.
- there are no Saturn Complex Hubs and all sectors have a limit on how many stations you can put in. At some point this can push you into conflict with at least one major faction (Paranid, Teladi, etc.) because you run out of empty sectors to build your factories in but still want to grow more powerful.
- sector takeover is a thing. NPC's fight against each other and territory changes hands. Relations are dynamic.
- NPC's have very powerful fleets and they can respawn them easily. But you have jumpdrives which means you can outmaneuver them and you can combine your forces into one massive fleet which can still jump around the galaxy quickly.

Mayhem 3
- your gameworld progresses through multiple stages with different threats and enemies. The player has to complete main quests to activate the next stage. As far as i know this can be delayed indefinitely. There is no time limit.
- you can't buy ships, stations, and additionally not even equipment. At least in large quantity. Money seems even less useful than in Mayhem 2. Producing your own stuff is more important than it is in Mayhem 2. But the economy is easier to manage (less resources required, only 1 input per factory, bigger cargospace for TS).
- The player and NPC's play very much by the same rules and mechanics (using similar scripts). Of course the main factions get a big headstart and the player starts as tiny hobo as always.
- NPC's have to use actual resources to replace their ships. They don't seem to be as powerful as they are in Mayhem 2 (no free respawns). But your fleets got no jumpdrive anymore. You can't concentrate and relocate your forces as well as in Litcube or Mayhem 2. With positioning and having to always keep some defenders within reach of your backyard it adds a whole new strategic layer.


Mayhem 2 vs. 3:
The crucial question in my opinion is this: Can you do without jumpdrives? Mayhem 3 is very slow paced compared to Mayhem 2. In Mayhem 2 i rarely used SETA at all because you could always jump to a location where interesting stuff was happening. Now in Mayhem 3's early game i use SETA all the time. It starts to get less as your empire grows because the player can still teleport himself to any of his ships (or jump his personal ship around) and later on you often find at least one interesting situation worth checking personally in your empire.

Joubarbe will decapitate me, but the procedural galaxies of Mayhem 3 don't have a big difference on the overall gameplay loops. (mic-drop)
But of course they are a huge deal for replayability and all by itself an incredible technical achievement.

[Joubarbe]

Mayhem 3 feels a bit too rough for starters, but that might just be my perspective, which is based on playing from-scratch-games in Mayhem 3.

It would be interested to have your feedback about from-scratch (aka. "none" expansion) games. Is it playable?

[Edna]

I can't provide an in-depth-feedback yet since I barely had any time to actually play the game as much as I did with Mayhem 2. I guess that will change once summer vacations arrive. What also needs to be taken into consideration is the fact that Mayhem 3 was patched twice now and the changes were quite impacting.

That being said: From-scratch is quite playable but as you (and the galaxy creator) warn correctly, it's very slow-paced in the beginning. Although I do assume it is slow-paced regardless of what kind of universe you are playing in, since the very first steps rarely affected my playing with the other races.

The VERY big plus of from-scratch galaxies is that you can get yourself a REALLY good start by simply looking for a cross-shaped alignment of unclaimed sectors.



This is my BETA 3 galaxy. As you see, there is a quite lucky formation to the left of the split starter sector, and I usually start out as Split for ship preferences (I prefer dodging over tanking, and Hit&Run over long-lasting combat in my player ship - and the Ocelote, the M7s and the M6s are pretty good while the TS is fast-ish). So what I did was to start out as Split, moved two systems to the left and claimed it with an outpost. From what I can tell, the races always leave one unclaimed system as border to your systems - at least that was the case so far - so the entire space to the left of the Split is sealed off by my outpost and Xenon systems. Even better, I have a cross-formation there, and my first system is the right part of the cross. I can simply expand to the left and take as many systems as I need. I usually go for just five systems in the early stages because the central system is supposed to be the factory outpost while every other outpost is doing research, stations, marines, etc. All my outposts generally use the tax- and no-food-perk because I am a lazy bum and especially in the early game I don't want to bother with finding TSs and protect them from the occasional pirate raid.

Because those are a thing now. In BETA 2, those were easily handled by the TL, who made them bail en-masse, so I managed to take out the first two pirates bases with like 15 M3s and the TL in OOS combat. When Day 1 was done, I had my outposts, my space was secured, had a little fleet and the only troubles I had where quests not triggering and the very difficult-to-set-up economy. Being used to Ore Mines using E-Cells, I was surprised to see their new requirements and the entire new economy in general. Having felt a bit overwhelmed by it, I focused on actually importing all the resources I needed from my friendly split neighbours. Their expansion in my BETA 1 map (with BETA 2) was quite fast, so they had enough stations offering resources. From what I can tell, lack of importable resources is not an issue in any of the BETA versions.

I'd say this about BETA 3 or Mayhem 3 in general regarding from-scratch games:

+ It feels like the races are 'racing' with you for sector expansion, which is neat. I tried out the three other universe settings but they felt essentially the same. The fact that you get bad reputation for bordering a race is realistic, but really discouraged me from going that route. In fact, the non-scratch-maps felt like no matter where I go - and there are usually only so many choices - I'll get effed over sooner or later by exactly that race that I actually wanted to be my neighbour. Bis minus: Since you start out with low rep with most races, this can effectively eff you over for good early on already, since gaining back reputation with a -2 rep race is almost impossible. The moment you enter the sector of a -2 rep race, the entire battlegroup turns red and hunts you down. You can't dock with stations to get missions to work on your reputation, and the new mission system makes combat missions difficult for reputation gains as there is usually a battlegroup around to take on the Xenon ships that spawn.

+ I never felt like I was missing out on something regarding the other races. They expand very early on already and manage to fill their sectors with stations and sometimes enough military. By the time I would actually require to import resources, the races would provide enough sectors with stations to act as trading partners. They are well-stocked, too.

+ Being able to plan out your first stations is a HUGE advantage and probably a game changer in comparison to the compromises you have to deal with in non-scratch games. I refrain from making comparisons to Litcube's or even Vanilla, since the slot-system for stations is a unique factor to Mayhem. That being said, as lazy bum and casual gamer, I never felt like I'd ever need to fully fill out the station slots in Mayhem 2 and I doubt I will in Mayhem 3, given I prefer trading YET.

+ The perks for no-food and tax are great, regardless of what stage you are playing. Yes, you could set up a large food supply chain and save some moneys and perks, but especially in the early game, where you have trouble getting the right ships for the right jobs, they make everything easier. I do think this is the one thing that makes a difference between a from-scratch galaxy to a normal one, as there are only so many stations that provide the right food.

+ It might be annoying for some people to sit in a M3 and hunt down Xenon M5s in unclaimed sectors, but it really gives a feeling of accomplishment when you cleaned a sector for your NPC-controlled ships. And then comes a random ass pirate and destroys your TS, because you forget about the possibility of an actual early game threat in your area. Which is good. So you head out and look for that damn pirate base. As I said, easy in BETA 2. No idea what changed in BETA 3.

+ The Xenon sectors have a huge impact on the development of the races. My BETA 1 galaxy had the paranids boxed in by the Xenons, forcing them to have only two sectors. I'm sure people can have mixed feelings about this, but if I wanted five races to be equally strong and basically behave the same with no impact on me, I'd play vanilla. Here, instead, I get the CHOICE to either help the paranids to get out of their sticky situation or let them remain where they are. Damn, it's an easy way to get extra perks for war on those empires.

I would like to say more, but my experiences are really mixed due to the three versions I played. I will play more in June. Until then I have to deal with relentless politicians and 40yo facebook moms who don't want to wear masks when they get groceries for 10 minutes.

Long story short: It's VERY playable and I recommend it over early/average expansion maps. That being said, I can't tell how significant the difference is in advanced maps apart from the map layout. I'd guess there are a few more factors to look at.

[Joubarbe]

Thank you very much! Your feedback is VERY important, I had some doubt about the AI and its ability on the long term to fully populate the galaxy.

[Joubarbe]

Also, there will be a "Scattered Galaxy" new trait in next beta. Your galaxy would look like something like that:

[Cyrilto1]

Well, Teladis and Argons got a nice place to expand, Borons and Paranids are in bad luck here. That's a lot of chokepoint though, nice and easily defendable position.

When do you think next beta will be ready ? And do you think it will be save compatible ?

[Fureimuu]

That was a good read. Something I can add regarding pirates: their behavior could be more ... realistic? So far they look like kamikaze fighters with tunnel vision.
"I WILL DESTROY THIS POOR TP WITHOUT ANY CARGO NO MATTER WHAT!" while 2-3 fighters are attacking it. Happened a few times when I tried saving NPC traders, pirates just don't fight back. Only when the target ship is destroyed they turn on you.

[Joubarbe]

Beta 4 next week, see changelog.

[Edna]

I'll definitely play in a Scattered Galaxy. Always loved fortifying myself in the Omicron Channel for the same reason (not that the OCV cared about that ). That's pretty much why I have the Beta 3 galaxy as it is a gauntlet of chokepoint systems as long as the Xenon are around.

[Hector0x]

I'm sure from scratch expansion provides a unique experience. It looks like wild west with all those Xenon sectors. Have to try it some day. Are there way more brown ones or is the impression deceptive?


On the reputation loss with neighbors. Yes it's hard to raise it back to positive again once you've dipped in the negative. But with one caveat. I believe you can reset your reputation all back to zero again by loosing a sector to them (truce). So if you don't declare any permanent wars you can't get totally stomped by a huge empire, should you have bitten off more than you can chew.

I like the restrictions you have to work with from reputation losses. It's another factor on the speed and order of your expansion planning. You may take a less valuable sector first because it has more neighbors and may not even be worth to claim later when the rep impact would be bigger. But in the meantime someone else claims the more valuable sector you should've actually gone for but skipped and wanted to save for later because it only got one neighboring faction and repairing the higher rep cost seemed to be easier. Congrats, your own greed just got the better of you! Instead of one good sector for 1 faction rep hit you now only got the bad one for 3 factions rep hit. Limitations like this are just down my alley. Testing my judgment, having to adapt. But i understand that perfectly planning your empire can also be very rewarding.

The system can also create a natural "dead zone no mans land" which you don't dare to claim anymore in fear of diplomatic repercussions. "Keep your distance then we'll get along"

I don't feel that reputation is the same progression mechanic that you level up the entire game to unlock goodies. It doesn't seem to be needed to get access to anything. You can't buy high grade gear. Even the diplomatic actions now have their own new favor point system. Reputation is more of an indicator of how much you are seen as a threat by other factions. And how much they allow you to pull off.

The current system is not newcomer friendly in that it requires a bit of planning ahead and it's not very forgiving if you go below zero early. If you're still neutral you can get the reputation needed for future expansion fairly easy. I took down a Xenon patrol with 3 P's and some fighters and this alone yielded more than 2.500 Argon rep. You can already do this with a small fleet produced in your starting sector and some additional claimed ships. This early in the game this is more than enough reputation to get more sectors near this faction. And you probably have a nice rep reserve from the missions you completed during your Ascension. You just have to take it slow and accept that you won't get all the perfect locations.
But once you are in negative rep it is indeed a bit hard to recover early in the game. Especially if you are totally surrounded by the faction in question. You need to wait for an opening, when they don't have any military ships present and then rush in with a fast fleet to farm rep again. You likely won't find xenon or pirates to kill in this situation and have to resort to eliminating their current war enemies' ships. You can't stay friendly to everyone at this point.

Maybe this could get alleviated by displaying the rep cost for claiming the next sector somewhere. For example in the ministry of war. Or even a prompt when the player tries to place a station and it would put him hostile towards a faction (do you really want to do this... yes/no?). Or making the hit temporary by introducing a small rep recovery over time until back to zero. But only if you didn't dip too deep in the first place, so that it's an early game boost only and new players can get a taste if having enemies means anything to them.

Overall the reputation loss is a very solid system in my opinion. Unlike the constant rep loss over time in early Mayhem versions, which could put you in grindy situations out of your hands. It's also realistic. Most feuds in history have been between neighbors. Heck, i can't stand my neighbor. It's human's nature. Probably alien's too.

[Joubarbe]

Or even a prompt when the player tries to place a station and it would put him hostile towards a faction (do you really want to do this... yes/no?).

Will do.

[alexalsp]

Can you add food data and data for the L044 file (name and language identifier) to the translation or data xml file.
If possible. Thank.

[4square425]

After playing Beta 3, I must say it's much improved over 2.

A few things I noticed:

1. I got a research station and have the ability to research any ship, except Pirate and Xenon/OCV ships, no prior blueprint needed. This includes Terran ships. Is this intended?
I enjoy not having to scan dozens of M6s and above with scanning being a nice active bonus. However, you mentioned something about unlocking Terran vessels, possibly through the "Terran Memory" aspect in the Galaxy Map.
EDIT: I figured out the Terran thing, I didn't have that option checked in my generated galaxy.

2. Is it possible to have Outpost Agent limits scale with each sector? It doesn't have to be 1:1, but it would be nice to have 6 or 7 Agents available for a 13 station sector, instead of 5 for all of them.
I'm using Factory Agents to fill in the gaps, currently, as the 5 Agents don't seem to be able to keep the resource chains flowing into and out of the Outpost with 13 stations.

3. Are Marines still a WIP with Mayhem 3, or do I need to progress with the Xenon to get them?

[pigsarehairy]

i'm wondering which one i should try, mayhem 2 or 3?

In my opinion these are the most important differences:

Litcube:
- the main enemy (OCV) sits in the upper right corner of the galaxy. You never have to engage into any combat before you decide to attack the OCV. There is a very very long time limit.
- you generally only need to find the most effective way to generate a single resource (money). It can buy you all you need to defeat the enemy. Ships, factories, weapons, missles, etc..
- you can crunch thousands of factories in Saturn Complex Hubs and put them in a single sector. The output of this sector is likely bigger than the rest of the economy in the whole gameworld combined.
- besides OCV, the player, and phanon corporation, there is zero change in the galaxy. Split/Boron and Argon/Paranid fight, but it's border skirmishes at best.

Mayhem 2
- the main enemy scales to your progress and he comes directly into your sectors. You have control over how powerful he will be, but at some point you have to engage into combat. If you want it or not. Like in Litcube you need to expand your industrial military power to survive long term. This reality hits you sooner than it does in Litcube, but it scales down to you so it can be managed.
- you can't buy ships or stations. Only earning money won't cut it. You have to secure multiple resources which partly depend on the map you got (randomized asteroid fields and sun intensity). Producing your own ships and factories is important and you also get to do this sooner than in Litcube.
- there are no Saturn Complex Hubs and all sectors have a limit on how many stations you can put in. At some point this can push you into conflict with at least one major faction (Paranid, Teladi, etc.) because you run out of empty sectors to build your factories in but still want to grow more powerful.
- sector takeover is a thing. NPC's fight against each other and territory changes hands. Relations are dynamic.
- NPC's have very powerful fleets and they can respawn them easily. But you have jumpdrives which means you can outmaneuver them and you can combine your forces into one massive fleet which can still jump around the galaxy quickly.

Mayhem 3
- your gameworld progresses through multiple stages with different threats and enemies. The player has to complete main quests to activate the next stage. As far as i know this can be delayed indefinitely. There is no time limit.
- you can't buy ships, stations, and additionally not even equipment. At least in large quantity. Money seems even less useful than in Mayhem 2. Producing your own stuff is more important than it is in Mayhem 2. But the economy is easier to manage (less resources required, only 1 input per factory, bigger cargospace for TS).
- The player and NPC's play very much by the same rules and mechanics (using similar scripts). Of course the main factions get a big headstart and the player starts as tiny hobo as always.
- NPC's have to use actual resources to replace their ships. They don't seem to be as powerful as they are in Mayhem 2 (no free respawns). But your fleets got no jumpdrive anymore. You can't concentrate and relocate your forces as well as in Litcube or Mayhem 2. With positioning and having to always keep some defenders within reach of your backyard it adds a whole new strategic layer.


Mayhem 2 vs. 3:
The crucial question in my opinion is this: Can you do without jumpdrives? Mayhem 3 is very slow paced compared to Mayhem 2. In Mayhem 2 i rarely used SETA at all because you could always jump to a location where interesting stuff was happening. Now in Mayhem 3's early game i use SETA all the time. It starts to get less as your empire grows because the player can still teleport himself to any of his ships (or jump his personal ship around) and later on you often find at least one interesting situation worth checking personally in your empire.

Joubarbe will decapitate me, but the procedural galaxies of Mayhem 3 don't have a big difference on the overall gameplay loops. (mic-drop)
But of course they are a huge deal for replayability and all by itself an incredible technical achievement.

Thanks allot for the informative reply

[Joubarbe]

@alexalsp: I'm not sure to understand what you mean here. Food and food data?

@4square425:

1. All "Pirate" ships are now in the Yaki category. Xenon will be researchable in next beta. Terran needs the sector to have "Terran memory", and you don't need to tick the thing in the galaxy generator to have it.
2. Not really.
3. Marines are fully implemented and working. I'm still wondering if it wouldn't be a better idea to have them available sooner.

[Joubarbe]

Let's complicate things...



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