[MOD] Miscellaneous IZ Combat Tweaks

[BlackRain]

Ah ok, range says 27000

Ha ha! That's a combination of my bullet speed and Rubini's bullet lifetime.

Ok, sorry man, but I don't know. The LR code should kick in for any ship that's running MICT and has primary weapon range of 8000 or better. And, from your description, sounds like your Vanguard isn't running the LR code.

Shouldn't matter whether it was an existing ship before you made your changes right?

[w.evans]

Ah ok, range says 27000

Ha ha! That's a combination of my bullet speed and Rubini's bullet lifetime.

Ok, sorry man, but I don't know. The LR code should kick in for any ship that's running MICT and has primary weapon range of 8000 or better. And, from your description, sounds like your Vanguard isn't running the LR code.

Shouldn't matter whether it was an existing ship before you made your changes right?

Nope. Well, if it was already IZ and in combat when you update, could continue it was doing before switching tracks, but next battle should be LR. Should, though. Possible that there's something else I don't understand in play.

[BlackRain]

Ah ok, range says 27000

Ha ha! That's a combination of my bullet speed and Rubini's bullet lifetime.

Ok, sorry man, but I don't know. The LR code should kick in for any ship that's running MICT and has primary weapon range of 8000 or better. And, from your description, sounds like your Vanguard isn't running the LR code.

Shouldn't matter whether it was an existing ship before you made your changes right?

Nope. Well, if it was already IZ and in combat when you update, could continue it was doing before switching tracks, but next battle should be LR. Should, though. Possible that there's something else I don't understand in play.

Can you tell me where I can find the code for this? I would like to look at it

[w.evans]

Ah ok, range says 27000

Ha ha! That's a combination of my bullet speed and Rubini's bullet lifetime.

Ok, sorry man, but I don't know. The LR code should kick in for any ship that's running MICT and has primary weapon range of 8000 or better. And, from your description, sounds like your Vanguard isn't running the LR code.

Shouldn't matter whether it was an existing ship before you made your changes right?

Nope. Well, if it was already IZ and in combat when you update, could continue it was doing before switching tracks, but next battle should be LR. Should, though. Possible that there's something else I don't understand in play.

Can you tell me where I can find the code for this? I would like to look at it

w.e_mict\aiscripts\MICT.move.attack.object.capital

Seven nodes, I think, all marked with condition:

this.ship.maxcombatrange.primary ge 8000 or this.ship.macro.ismacro.{macro.units_size_l_single_attack_ship_macro}

sometimes in combination with other conditions.

[w.evans]

w.evans
I thought BEFORE that Hull was untouched, but there is trouble with Vanilla "Main Info" window. The Map shows Hull and Shields right, in real time and it's completely valid.

We have problems in some other things, including Vanilla battle-style, Main Info and your IZ/OOZ for now. Analize this pic carefully.

Is the Tyrant faster than the Mammoth?

No. And in this test Mammoth-T have command to "Wait" (stays at the same place). See the picture.
Tyrant - 100 m/s
Mammoth-T - 120 m/s

Sorry, iWARR. Missed your edit. So you're telling me that the Mammoth is so bad-ass that it can kill that rampaging Tyrant IZ without moving, and yet the OOZ balance from MOCT still has the Tyrant winning?

ps. Only reason I saw your edit was I was looking for that post to quote it because I had been looking at your infopic and couldn't find anything else.

[BlackRain]

Wouldn't just specifying the macro work? I will try it

[Scoob]

Hmm,

I've just launched Rebirth to test this update and it's reverted back to v3.53 with no Windows beta available - though Linux, Steam OS and Mac OS are - just me?

Edit: Hmm, some sort of Steam glitch, game just updated its self again. First time I've seen this particular issue in Steam.

Scoob.

[w.evans]

Hmm,

I've just launched Rebirth to test this update and it's reverted back to v3.53 with no Windows beta available - though Linux, Steam OS and Mac OS are - just me?

Scoob.

Still at 3.60 Build 198327.

@BlackRain, go ahead. Let me know if it works. Problem is, I can't publish it that way in this mod because it generates errors when your ship macros aren't installed.

[BlackRain]

Hmm,

I've just launched Rebirth to test this update and it's reverted back to v3.53 with no Windows beta available - though Linux, Steam OS and Mac OS are - just me?

Scoob.

Still at 3.60 Build 198327.

@BlackRain, go ahead. Let me know if it works. Problem is, I can't publish it that way in this mod because it generates errors when your ship macros aren't installed.

No problem, I will try to see if it works first and then I can just do a simple replace to it if it works

[iWARR]

w.evans

So you're telling me that the Mammoth is so bad-ass that it can kill that rampaging Tyrant IZ without moving, and yet the OOZ balance from MOCT still has the Tyrant winning?

Exactly! And "in/out of zone" difference with IZ/Vanilla, that change the winner!

Tyrant - sharp blade, Mammoth-T - huge fiery dragon

[w.evans]

w.evans

So you're telling me that the Mammoth is so bad-ass that it can kill that rampaging Tyrant IZ without moving, and yet the OOZ balance from MOCT still has the Tyrant winning?

Exactly! And "in/out of zone" difference with IZ/Vanilla, that change the winner!

Thanks for clarifying.

At first, I thought that I ought to maybe lower the speed penalty a bit, but the problem is that the modifications that MOCT makes to OOZ balance should actually apply slight bonuses to the Mammoth since it's faster. Another factor would be crew skill, but if the two ships have the same crew skills, then that should neutralize.

Another relevant factor would be shield strength. In another example I looked at, a slower, powerful ship, but with weaker shields (force field projectors protecting the surface elements), would tend to lose because it would lose more guns faster. It would start with a higher dps, but would more quickly lose that advantage from lost guns.

Assuming that there's a balance mismatch (I don't know that since I don't have those mods, but I'll take your word for it), I don't know how to rebalance it from this example because the ship that you said ought to win actually does have bonuses with the present balance.

Would you know if the Tyrant is running MICT? If it is, then it would have advantages OOZ from maneouvering more effectively, and the fact that it's attacking a target that isn't moving would matter. Vanilla, neither of the ships would maneouver OOZ since the attacking ship will just get closer to the ship that it's attacking, so "attacking" vs "waiting" wouldn't matter.

ps. just remembered that the Mammoth is "waiting", thus isn't moving at all. According to present balance, that would make it easier to hit, and would have a harder time hitting the Tyrant which, I assume, IS moving. Could be that the speed penalty could use some tweaking after all. I'll do some testing.

[Scoob]

Hello again,

My Fulmekron is still miss behaving. It was sat next to a jump beacon when a Reiver fleet jumped in. I ordered both it and my Taranis - which was also close by - to engage. Fulmekron, while turning slightly, opened fire on a Sennin Besieger which was part of the fleet and destroyed it while my Taranis was attacking both the fleet leader Titurel and the Sennin. While the Taranis switched to fully engage the Titurel just fine after the Sennin blew, the Fulmekron micro-jumped away well out of weapons range and above the elliptic.

The Fulmekrons behaviour seems totally different to how MICT should perform, it jumps further away when claiming to be closing the distance and seems to jump almost at random at times when already successfully engaging a target.

The result of this is that in my game, a Taranis with a combat order (Attack, Patrol etc.) is far far more effective In-Zone than the much more heavily armed Fulmekron. Only keeping the ship stationary and allowing enemies to come to it does it work really well.

I'm somewhat confused by this behaviour. If the Fulmekrons much larger size isn't throwing off the calculations, what else might cause this behaviour?

Scoob.

[w.evans]

it jumps further away when claiming to be closing the distance

This is particularly strange. Could you please send me a save? Can't promise that I'll look at it right away, but I will take a look when there's time.

[Scoob]

This is particularly strange. Could you please send me a save? Can't promise that I'll look at it right away, but I will take a look when there's time.

When I next set up a good combat scenario for the Fulmekron I'll snag a save.

To summarise my mods, I'm viewing Extensions in-game currently:

Conquest and War
The Teladi Outpost
Capital Ship Bridge
Marine Rebalance
TAF!
Miscellanious IZ Combat Tweaks
Miscellanious OOZ Combat Tweaks
Yet Another Trader (Installed, not used by any ships)

I don't think any of the other mods would impact behaviour, so I'd not expect their absence to impact testing your side.

This was a PLOT game started in v3.53 Beta (or poss v3.50) only modded with CWAR, MICT and MOCT post-plot completion.

Scoob.

[w.evans]

I have all of those mods, except for CWIR which I only use occasionally to test since I haven't finished the plot yet in my main game; so you're at least using it in a similar environment as mine.

Just remembered: about that message and jumping away, I unified the messages for jumping away (attack) and jumping closer (attack) so, in both instances, it'll say:

%1
Jumping to attack %2

Distance to Target: %5 meters
Optimal Distance: %3 - %4 meters'

Could be that your Fulmekron's captain felt that the hostile was getting too close, so jumped away (but is still attacking), and miscalculated the jump. Particularly pronounced if the captain has less than 5 stars at primary skills, although could also happen with 5 stars, particularly if the ship it's fighting is also running MICT.

About the ineffective random jumping around, really can't say. I suspect that at least part of the problem is that I haven't gotten to Omicron Lyrae yet in my main game so, outside of testing, haven't really worked much with the -mekron ships.

Ship size is taken into account for two calculations:

for judging escape distance (max firing range of the target + the target's size)
and for judging the space that it needs free for all movements (jump, boost, and move) -- attribute radius, it being the "Radius to indicate necessary space required for a safe position"

[Scoob]

Due to an unintended side effect of CIWR, I have crew that's 5* in everything, so it's not that. I will keep an eye on it, and snag a save when I next see a combat scenario.

Scoob.

[BlackRain]

Scoob, you can change those npcs by editing brspawnnpc.xml hehe



W.evans, adding in the macro name worked, the succellus vanguard is now using the LR script as it should.

I noticed, though, that the IHC cannon is incapable of hitting the outposts added by our mod, though haha. Both Succellus and Succellus Vanguard IHC cannons can't hit the station, bullet goes right past it every time.

[w.evans]

20.August 2015 - Miscellaneous IZ Combat Tweaks updated to v0.33.1

Reduced OOZ combat penalty due to actual relative speed.

[Scoob]

Scoob, you can change those npcs by editing brspawnnpc.xml hehe



W.evans, adding in the macro name worked, the succellus vanguard is now using the LR script as it should.

I noticed, though, that the IHC cannon is incapable of hitting the outposts added by our mod, though haha. Both Succellus and Succellus Vanguard IHC cannons can't hit the station, bullet goes right past it every time.

Erm, no, can't find that file in my game...honest

Regarding the IHC's lack of accuracy vs. Outposts, I have seen ships firing their Plasma/MA weapons at Outposts and the shots flying right past. It's like the centre point - which I assume ships aim for when no surface elements remain - is offset, so from certain angles shots miss entirely. Saying that, for me at least, ships not firing at Outposts at all is more common - though I've not engaged an Outpost recently and updates come thick and fast.

Scoob.

[w.evans]

@BlackRain, Scoob, could be due to a vanilla bug I noticed several months ago where Drostan missiles fired at close to point-blank range, but far from the Skunk, fly through certain models sometimes. Might have been fixed at some point, haven't been paying close attention to projectiles actually hitting. Suspect something about some of the collision meshes in particular circumstances, but not sure. IHC seems to be hitting ships in my game, at least, the times that I just watch the shield/hull values while it's hitting.