Coronavirus: COVID-19

[Incubi]

I find it odd that I was given validation under the assumption of hating America.I am not your typical patriotic American but I am American and I am glad I live here. I am not a patriot. Which is good because patriots are a threat to the very country their patriotic too. I’m just very unhappy with my presidency and I find my country to be very hypocritical on its own values. That is a whole another subject that I do not want to derail this thread. I do however want to suggest that if hating America is influencing opinions of what’s happening here. Please dig a little deeper As you would for any other country. Except France though you should for France too haha.

lol no no no, that's not what I meant. I meant that you did not act like a Dalai Lama that hates America and feels the need to lecture us on how we should think or act, like someone else 'round here does.

Oh that’s funny. Don’t know why I miss read that ha ha still. Give France an honest chance to not just because that rhymed!

[Masterbagger]

I find it odd that I was given validation under the assumption of hating America.I am not your typical patriotic American but I am American and I am glad I live here. I am not a patriot. Which is good because patriots are a threat to the very country their patriotic too. I’m just very unhappy with my presidency and I find my country to be very hypocritical on its own values. That is a whole another subject that I do not want to derail this thread. I do however want to suggest that if hating America is influencing opinions of what’s happening here. Please dig a little deeper As you would for any other country. Except France though you should for France too haha.

Patriotism is not a threat to country but is a threat to politics. That happens when one party is determined to make a platform of being ashamed of America and the other refuses. People are just taking sides. To tie it back to the subject I think that is going to play itself out when the individual states set their policy for getting everyone back to work. I think the blue states are going to drag it out on purpose so the shutdowns are still fresh in memory when we vote this year. If every state in America dropped their stay home suggestions today the economy would come roaring back with a vengeance. I think some of them don't want that to happen this close to an election. They want us to hurt so they can promise to be the savior.

I did not get my AR and invade my local council. Nor did I resent the people ahead of me in the queue. Nor did I resent measures put in place to ensure that we could all queue in a fair manner.

You don't have an AR. Our model of individual freedom is not compatible with your notions of it. You have privileges. We have inalienable rights. I think your Queen is a nice lady but I owe her no fealty.

[Vertigo 7]

75,000 dead Americans and counting, that we know of. The only reason this is a red or blue thing is because some of your red morons, following the orange moron, care more about money than the lives of people. What good is an economy going to do anyone if you're dead? The economy can be rebuilt. You can't bring people back from the dead. Why is that such a difficult concept for you to grasp? It's not rocket surgery.

If you can't see that we're all in this together, you really are a lost cause. I'll say it again, maybe you'll listen this time but my confidence is not high, this virus does not care what your political view is. I'm so sorry that you feel inconvenienced, but you're alive to complain about it. If you want that to change, go tempt fate, be my guest. At least isolate yourself so you don't infect others around you that do care.

[Mightysword]

Patriotism is not a threat to country but is a threat to politics. That happens when one party is determined to make a platform of being ashamed of America and the other refuses.

It goes both way. I'm not a fan of people turning patriotism to a beating stick, but I don't support blind patriotism either. I will defend American virtues (of which it has plenty) if I feel someone else infringe on them, but I will also critize any traits I see as short-coming. As an I'm immigrant while I love America as a whole (else why would I come here?), I don't have the 'MURICA' mindset either. Love America or hate America are just broad term that often politicized to push agenda. For me it really depend on what is the specific topic at hand, I like and dislike certain traits of our cultures, but each of those invidual limited window shouldn't define a broader view, unless we're aiming for stereotyping

Like I said in the previous page, the current situation playing out in the US doesn't surprise me, knowing our culture we already did better than I expected ... or rather we manage to keep it going for longer that I thought. But that's not the same thing as saying I think we're some prime example of how a population should handle a crisis. Again, I 'understand' why the protests are happening, that doesn't mean I'm saying those protesters are right or I support them. I just don't 'label' them with some arbitrary and convenience associations, aside from a few bad actors that is.

People are just taking sides.

Well, You know I had told you several time: not taking any side is also an option.

[Masterbagger]

75,000 dead Americans and counting, that we know of. The only reason this is a red or blue thing is because some of your red morons, following the orange moron, care more about money than the lives of people. What good is an economy going to do anyone if you're dead? The economy can be rebuilt. You can't bring people back from the dead. Why is that such a difficult concept for you to grasp? It's not rocket surgery.

If you can't see that we're all in this together, you really are a lost cause. I'll say it again, maybe you'll listen this time but my confidence is not high, this virus does not care what your political view is. I'm so sorry that you feel inconvenienced, but you're alive to complain about it. If you want that to change, go tempt fate, be my guest. At least isolate yourself so you don't infect others around you that do care.

Is my great sin not being afraid when you think I should? I know people also die from poverty during depressions and this is what we are heading toward. We need businesses to be open and this late in the game they won't all come back. I don't care what you say to me if it is a plea to get emotional. That is not how I work. I have been working this whole time because I have no conditions that put me at risk for bat flu and apparently what I do is needed enough. I don't care either way if I get it or don't because healthy people living in fear to their own ruin is worse than facing it. It is very likely that I already had it. Your need to create fear has no power over me. You specifically don't have the right to say we are all in this together when you deliberately embraced hatred to set yourself apart from people like me. You tried to snap me out of your world like Thanos with that hate thinking you didn't need to share this country with me. I'm still here and you aren't my supervisor. If you are sitting at home boiling a steak you have others just like me who are working right now to make that lifestyle possible. You aren't bashing them as you are me. Your beef with me isn't about the virus.

[felter]

And you are bashing people because they have the audacity to care what happens to other people life's, and don't give us this shit that people die in a recession as you don't give a dam about anyone else apart from your own self appeasing existence, all you care about is that it doesn't effect you in any way as to you it is you and only you that matters, screw everyone else.

[Masterbagger]

And you are bashing people because they have the audacity to care what happens to other people life's, and don't give us this shit that people die in a recession as you don't give a dam about anyone else apart from your own self appeasing existence, all you care about is that it doesn't effect you in any way as to you it is you and only you that matters, screw everyone else.

Do emotionally charged attacks on me for saying something you didn't want to hear help you cope with how you have no control over this situation? What is needed right now isn't trying to bully someone into thinking your way. What is needed is realistically thinking about what our options are. Staying shut down is not one of those options. I don't care if you are mad at me for saying it. This situation is well beyond your own dysfunction with me. Get your feelings under control and assess it. We have to get back to work. This is a fact. When we have that common ground established we only argue about when and how. That is better than whatever it is you imagine I care or don't care about and projecting it on me as an insult.

[CBJ]

Demanding that everyone move to your position first in order to find "common ground" doesn't advance the discussion any more than making personal attacks. Everybody needs to back off here.

[Vertigo 7]

75,000 dead Americans and counting, that we know of. The only reason this is a red or blue thing is because some of your red morons, following the orange moron, care more about money than the lives of people. What good is an economy going to do anyone if you're dead? The economy can be rebuilt. You can't bring people back from the dead. Why is that such a difficult concept for you to grasp? It's not rocket surgery.

If you can't see that we're all in this together, you really are a lost cause. I'll say it again, maybe you'll listen this time but my confidence is not high, this virus does not care what your political view is. I'm so sorry that you feel inconvenienced, but you're alive to complain about it. If you want that to change, go tempt fate, be my guest. At least isolate yourself so you don't infect others around you that do care.

Is my great sin not being afraid when you think I should?

Your cowardice has been on display for a long time. However, this was an opportunity for compassion for your fellow citizens who overwhelmingly wish to remain safe. You missed the mark.

I know people also die from poverty during depressions and this is what we are heading toward.

False equivalency. Poverty wont cause you to choke on your own blood or die from a stroke.

We need businesses to be open and this late in the game they won't all come back.

Uhhh, okay... if you say so. I don't know why you think that's the case. Manufacturing didn't vanish into the Aether. Supply and Demand, while currently prioritized for essential goods for most, will return back to normal. Maybe some small businesses will change hands or shutter for good, but no, things will get back to normal. Besides, if you expect people to believe you care about that, then why do you shop at Walmart? ya know, the company that's quite infamous for running the mom and pop shops out of business.

I don't care what you say to me if it is a plea to get emotional. That is not how I work.

I'm not pleading for you to get emotional. I've suspected for a long time that emotion is beyond your capability. But I am asking you to consider the position of the vast majority of the population that wish to remain safe. Take Ohio, as an example. Republican Governor Mike DeWine has received overwhelming support from republican, democrat, and independent voters alike for his efforts to protect his state from Covid. *gasp* A republican getting support from democrats? Say it isn't so! But it's true. The man has completely broken with Trump on the Covid response and is bringing factual and honest information to the people there and isn't turning it into a political fiasco. And people support his efforts to keep them safe. Contrast that with Georgia Governor Kemp (R) where 60% of the state disapprove of his handling of Covid and the rush to reopen. Both states have had close to the same level of infection. Kemp is the one that's playing stupid Trump games.

I have been working this whole time because I have no conditions that put me at risk for bat flu and apparently what I do is needed enough. I don't care either way if I get it or don't because healthy people living in fear to their own ruin is worse than facing it. It is very likely that I already had it. Your need to create fear has no power over me.

I said long ago that you don't need to be afraid of this virus. But you do need to be smart about it.

And it's not just about you, it's also about the people around you. Whether you've had it already or not, at this point, is irrelevant. There's no proof that you're immune to reinfection or can no longer be contagious. Again, it's not just about you.

You specifically don't have the right to say we are all in this together when you deliberately embraced hatred to set yourself apart from people like me. You tried to snap me out of your world like Thanos with that hate thinking you didn't need to share this country with me. I'm still here and you aren't my supervisor. If you are sitting at home boiling a steak you have others just like me who are working right now to make that lifestyle possible. You aren't bashing them as you are me. Your beef with me isn't about the virus.

Since you feel entitled to my respect, why should I respect you? I'm very curious to know. And don't give me a war movie story about dodging IEDs. I'm seriously starting to question if that was even true or not. Most people that serve, honorably, understand duty and sacrifice and wouldn't be willing to risk the lives of the citizens of their own country for their own selfish reasons.

[red assassin]

Reminder that it is not the case that reopening the economy is automatically the best way to help the economy:
https://fortune.com/2020/05/04/reopenin ... conomists/
Most economists agree that an overly aggressive attempt to reopen the economy leads to a worse overall economic outcome due to the economic costs associated with a second wave of the disease. This is true even if lockdown measures are not reintroduced: it turns out that having a large chunk of your population get sick/die is also pretty bad for the economy.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/pedrodacos ... u-in-1918/

There is, of course, disagreement in the exact measures that should be taken at what time etc. But the position that aiming to keep the economy open above all else is not the best way of protecting the economy is not a controversial one. Arguments starting from the "obvious" idea that we must prioritise reopening the economy are refusing to acknowledge the actual complexity of the situation, and in the best interests of literally nobody.

[Alan Phipps]

Can we end this very personal debate of other posters now. Any more instances will be dealt with.

@ Vertigo 7: Yes, CBJ's post immediately before your last also applied to you.

[RegisterMe]

Reminder that it is not the case that reopening the economy is automatically the best way to help the economy:
https://fortune.com/2020/05/04/reopenin ... conomists/
Most economists agree that an overly aggressive attempt to reopen the economy leads to a worse overall economic outcome due to the economic costs associated with a second wave of the disease. This is true even if lockdown measures are not reintroduced: it turns out that having a large chunk of your population get sick/die is also pretty bad for the economy.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/pedrodacos ... u-in-1918/

There is, of course, disagreement in the exact measures that should be taken at what time etc. But the position that aiming to keep the economy open above all else is not the best way of protecting the economy is not a controversial one. Arguments starting from the "obvious" idea that we must prioritise reopening the economy are refusing to acknowledge the actual complexity of the situation, and in the best interests of literally nobody.

It's far from clear cut, and it will remain that way for some time (years) to come.

**** NOTE I AM NOT ADVOCATING THE FOLLOWING ****

You could take an extreme example - no special measures whatsoever. People would die - let's say for the sake of argument 1% of the population, businesses and industries would suffer and be disrupted, health services would be overwhelmed, and we'd be through it and out the other side (allowing for seasonal return, mutation etc etc).

Thankfully that's not a position any sensible politician in the developed world can take.

However, we can compare the costs of the above with the costs associated with the global lockdown, damage to businesses, people, the education of children, government bailouts etc, which are currently running into the trillions of dollars globally (the last time I checked, maybe a week ago, they were already some three times the size of the bank bailouts in 2008).

And no doubt we will. This is exactly the sort of calculation that NICE (for non UKers that's the UK's National Institute of Clinical Excellence) runs every day when looking at the cost benefit analysis for new interventions. I am a long way from convinced that, on "normal" pre COVID-19 economic measures, the current response is justifiable. An organisation like NICE has, somewhere, a scorecard that details value, in £, of additional years of life given x, y and z. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the dollar cost of saving a life from COVID-19 is massively more expensive than the dollar cost of saving an equivalent life from cancer, or providing IVF, or free school meals or whatever else you might want to compare it with.

It is, of course, completely justifiable on social, political and humanitarian grounds.

[red assassin]

I am a long way from convinced that, on "normal" pre COVID-19 economic measures, the current response is justifiable. An organisation like NICE has, somewhere, a scorecard that details value, in £, of additional years of life given x, y and z. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the dollar cost of saving a life from COVID-19 is massively more expensive than the dollar cost of saving an equivalent life from cancer, or providing IVF, or free school meals or whatever else you might want to compare it with.

This is not a position that aligns with the evidence. The economic cost of inadequate containment of the pandemic is severe and, as discussed in the links above, likely worse than thorough containment action. Certainly it seems likely the UK's delayed response has had economic costs, and there'll be a lot of debate about what exactly the best measures were and are. (And on free school meals and the like, we're extraordinarily unwilling to take basic proactive measures with a payoff vastly higher than the cost, but I digress.) But you need to measure the cost of lockdown measures against the extremely high economic cost of an unchecked pandemic plus the value of all the lost lives, not against the lives alone. Summary: a global pandemic is expensive and there's no getting away from that.

[Gavrushka]

Police admit they can't control the epidemic of stupidity.

I'm thinking the constabulary should dress up as 5G masts, and that'd likely see them scarper pronto.

No ifs, no buts, those who are ignoring the lockdown are responsible for spreading further infection. People will die so they can eat Pizza in the park. I'm growing increasingly sure that humankind has backed itself into an evolutionary cul de sac, and such displays of stupidity are just the latest symptom.

[RegisterMe]

I am a long way from convinced that, on "normal" pre COVID-19 economic measures, the current response is justifiable. An organisation like NICE has, somewhere, a scorecard that details value, in £, of additional years of life given x, y and z. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the dollar cost of saving a life from COVID-19 is massively more expensive than the dollar cost of saving an equivalent life from cancer, or providing IVF, or free school meals or whatever else you might want to compare it with.

This is not a position that aligns with the evidence. The economic cost of inadequate containment of the pandemic is severe and, as discussed in the links above, likely worse than thorough containment action. Certainly it seems likely the UK's delayed response has had economic costs, and there'll be a lot of debate about what exactly the best measures were and are. (And on free school meals and the like, we're extraordinarily unwilling to take basic proactive measures with a payoff vastly higher than the cost, but I digress.) But you need to measure the cost of lockdown measures against the extremely high economic cost of an unchecked pandemic plus the value of all the lost lives, not against the lives alone. Summary: a global pandemic is expensive and there's no getting away from that.

Those links are... unconvincing (though I haven't read the referenced FED paper). Aside from that I don't disagree with what you say, I just think it's too early to draw conclusions.

EDIT: Here's a different point of view from The Atlantic ne Harvard

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... on/611398/

I place as much store by it as I do anything in Forbes, which is to good business press and economics what the Daily Mail is to good journalism. OK, that may be a tad harsh, but the WSJ, the FT, The Economist, it is not. Fortune is... like Hello, only about business (and business people) rather than your regular run of the mill celebrity.

[Vertigo 7]

I agree. We're not even through the thick of it yet. We're currently averaging ~1700 deaths per day in the US alone and that's probably going to jump up. I hope it doesn't but I honestly don't expect we'll see a sharp decline until August at the earliest, especially if people and governors ignore health and safety guidelines. And I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want my life distilled down to a line item on a cost/benefit analysis, and certainly not my children. There's no cost too great to keep them safe.

That aside, you better believe wrongful death lawsuits are going to swarm the federal and state governments. Right or wrong, it's gonna happen. That cost is going to be monumental.

[Chips]

No ifs, no buts, those who are ignoring the lockdown are responsible for spreading further infection. People will die so they can eat Pizza in the park. I'm growing increasingly sure that humankind has backed itself into an evolutionary cul de sac, and such displays of stupidity are just the latest symptom.

I didn't quite read an entire article about a 13 year old saying "I'm missing out on my teenage years..." (the levels of over dramatising the impact was laughable) and an associated piece about 16-24 year olds incapable of dealing with lockdown - but given various articles used to go on about "texting generation don't know how to communicate, don't go out" etc it seemed really odd to find the opposite was suddenly true. Can't survive without going out, without talking, mingling etc.

As others pointed out (possibly elsewhere), during the war 6 years of hardships were felt. Today, we can't even manage 6 weeks.

[Vertigo 7]

No ifs, no buts, those who are ignoring the lockdown are responsible for spreading further infection. People will die so they can eat Pizza in the park. I'm growing increasingly sure that humankind has backed itself into an evolutionary cul de sac, and such displays of stupidity are just the latest symptom.

I didn't quite read an entire article about a 13 year old saying "I'm missing out on my teenage years..." (the levels of over dramatising the impact was laughable) and an associated piece about 16-24 year olds incapable of dealing with lockdown - but given various articles used to go on about "texting generation don't know how to communicate, don't go out" etc it seemed really odd to find the opposite was suddenly true. Can't survive without going out, without talking, mingling etc.

As others pointed out (possibly elsewhere), during the war 6 years of hardships were felt. Today, we can't even manage 6 weeks.

I think people, especially in the US, tend to take a lot of their luxuries for granted, and have rarely, if ever, had to do without. I said months ago that this virus is going to require a lifestyle change until it is contained. We can adapt or go nuts.

Speaking from my own personal experience, I rely heavily on the internet for work, entertainment, and shopping. If my ISP goes down for any length of time, I do tend to get a bit restless. Now, I don't live in a war zone and there is no requirement to sacrifice that luxury, but if the state of the world were to ever change so that the internet is no longer available, I'm quite sure that my focus would be to support efforts to address the root cause instead of whining about inconveniences to me.

Fortunately, my job today already had me in a position to directly support a lot of healthcare workers in the US. I'm truly grateful for their efforts and they have my utmost respect for the danger they're putting themselves in for our benefit. We get weekly briefings from our CMO and occasionally they bring in some doctors and nurses to tell us directly of their experiences in treating patients and you can hear in voice their how exhausted and desperate they are for this to be over.

Many of them are working 48 hours straight and only stopping to eat a power bar or taking a bathroom break and only getting 12 hours off before starting another 48 hours. I've not heard a single one of them complain about frivolous things. As a matter of fact, the only things I have heard them complain about is a lack of PPE and not being able to treat anything but symptoms.

These men and women are going above and beyond to protect us all at great risk to themselves. The very least any of us can do is to support them by not being part of the problem. If that means giving up on your daily trips to sit down at McDonald's and eat a dry horse meat burger, so be it. They'll be around when this is over.

[Mightysword]

I didn't quite read an entire article about a 13 year old saying "I'm missing out on my teenage years..." (the levels of over dramatising the impact was laughable) and an associated piece about 16-24 year olds incapable of dealing with lockdown - but given various articles used to go on about "texting generation don't know how to communicate, don't go out" etc it seemed really odd to find the opposite was suddenly true. Can't survive without going out, without talking, mingling etc.

As others pointed out (possibly elsewhere), during the war 6 years of hardships were felt. Today, we can't even manage 6 weeks.

I think it has something to do with the issue of perception, how real something is vs how real it feels. Remember I posted a few videos of Italian mayors/governors ranting about the population must stay at home? That's when their healthcare system were about to collapse and death ton was picking up fast. Despite that without something in the face, some Italian still didn't take it seriously - hence the videos. It became a lot better afterward (the lockdown obedience), because I guess seeing convoys of military trucks loaded with coffin going to a mass grave is a hallowed experience, and kinda wake people up.

If you look over at Asia, it's not just the culture in general. There are still a lot of places that the response are bad. Outside of China there are only a handful # of countries that you can say had exampliar response and manage to bring thing to control fast, and they all share one common thing: they were burnt by SARS before. Yes it's part to culture and government response but the most important thing is the 'population' didn't need to be convinced, they immediately know the shit was real. The US is a big place, and despite how bad the # is, aside from places like New York ore Settle I don't think the pain feels 'real' to the majority of the population. The threat doesn't seem to feel real, while the economy pain is a lot more real to most.

[Observe]

The threat doesn't seem to feel real, while the economy pain is a lot more real to most.

In the same way as threat of cirrhosis of the liver doesn't feel real to the alcoholic until their liver fails, or risk of lung cancer for smokers doesn't feel real until its too late. The personal discomfort of the moment is what is most real.

Also, a lot of people are not comfortable being socially isolated. The risk of dying from Coronavirus, or even the guild of causing someone else to die, is of little consequence when someone is climbing the walls out of boredom or depression from too much solitude. It is unfortunate that this situation is causing a rift among people and further polarizing everything in a political theater.