Coronavirus: COVID-19

[Vertigo 7]

It's easy to poke fun when we see what seems like ridiculous behavior, like the protest in Michigan. But in any human story it is important to remember the word "human". These people know there lives are changed, they are loosing work and they are scared. The virus still seems like a boogey man to many while loss of jobs and fear of an uncertain future is very real. In times like this we look to our leaders and blame them when things go bad. People are scared and anxiety does a strange thing to how we think. Obviously toting guns and acting like it is the policy and not the virus that is ruining lives is a stupid thing to do and very dangerous. But not understanding or even trying to understand why people are behaving this is just as stupid; in my opinion, because only with understanding of how this is affecting lives and behavior can we beat it. There is obviously a lack of information and honesty in statistics that is making Americans look stupid and with such high numbers and a threat to the economy at large, people are going to be scared and do stupid things. It is the nature of global disasters and America is not exempt from those. And of coarse Trump is going to find a way to stay in office with this and he is doing a terrible job of helping America through this; which doesn't help with peoples attitudes towards our leaders, so expect a lot more stupidity over the next few weeks to months. Just please try not to assume that it is because everyone is stupid.

That sounds great in principle, but is fear any excuse to wave confederate and nazi flags (I'll remind you that both flags belonged to enemies of the United States, aside from their intended racial intimidation attempts) and display nooses? Is fear any excuse to threaten violence because they're not getting their way? Is that how we "make america great again"? There is no seeming like ridiculous behavior, it IS ridiculous behavior being demonstrated by anyone who wants to be considered as human, much less American. Not to mention their very actions are putting others aside from themselves at risk by ignoring safety guidelines.

[Incubi]

In every crowd people will find a way to be seen and they tend to set the tone for how things are perceived. And bad behavior is never excused by the cause. My concern is how bad behavior is getting more attention than the cause. It keeps us from focusing on the real issues. I am also concerned about how fears that lead to the bad behavior seems to be more less important . Of course I would never excuse that behavior.

[CBJ]

There is an interesting irony here. Incubi is, not unreasonably, asking people to stop and examine the motivation of these people. But, the people whose motivation we're being asked to consider are clearly not in the slightest bit interested in anyone's else's motivation (in this case for maintaining restrictions to protect the lives of those who would otherwise be at great risk). Dehumanising them, as Vertigo has tried to, doesn't strengthen the argument against them, but neither does granting them the privilege of examining their reasoning when they are clearly unwilling to do the same for anyone else.

[Vertigo 7]

In every crowd people will find a way to be seen and they tend to set the tone for how things are perceived. And bad behavior is never excused by the cause. My concern is how bad behavior is getting more attention than the cause. It keeps us from focusing on the real issues. I am also concerned about how fears that lead to the bad behavior seems to be more less important . Of course I would never excuse that behavior.

That's the thing. No one wants a lock down to last indefinitely. And no one is saying it will or should. We all want things to go back to normal. But making a trip to the grocery store should not be an inherent risk to someones life, especially to the people that aren't making the trip. I'm sorry but I'm never going to agree that someone has the right to put my family's life at risk just because they have things they want to do. Until this virus is contained, we need to take precautions to keep people safe.

Here's a philosophical question for you... If someone is willing to ignore safety guide lines and they're okay with putting others at risk, should you be allowed to use lethal force to protect yourself or your family from them? I'm curious how the hillbillies would react to having their lives threatened since they seem to enjoy threatening the lives of people that are trying to keep them alive.

[Mightysword]

There is an interesting irony here. Incubi is, not unreasonably, asking people to stop and examine the motivation of these people. But, the people whose motivation we're being asked to consider are clearly not in the slightest bit interested in anyone's else's motivation (in this case for maintaining restrictions to protect the lives of those who would otherwise be at great risk). Dehumanising them, as Vertigo has tried to, doesn't strengthen the argument against them, but neither does granting them the privilege of examining their reasoning when they are clearly unwilling to do the same for anyone else.

I believe Incubi's intention is being misunderstood. I think I realize it because it's something I often put up myself. Usually, when someone like us advocate for "understanding" of the accused, people on the other side tend to take it as we're trying to defend or sympathize with the crime or the individual committing the crime. But that's not what we're doing. Our intention is to gain something from the perspective of a collective. Here is an easy to understand parallel example:

- Black community and high crime rate: that's a fact, it's a problem no matter how you want to spin it, racist or not. The question is what gonna be your perspective looking at that problem. The easy one is "they commit the crime because they're black", and if that you believe, and it also lead to the 'easy' solution - isolation, quarantine, discrimination. Or, you can try to "understand" why crime is so high in black community - social condition, lack of education, poverty ...etc... and only when you acknowledge that, you can try to tackle the harder solutions. But, saying we need to understand what cause people to do something does not equate to defending or excusing the wrong doing. When a black man committing a crime, regardless due to how unfortunate the circumstance is, it doesn't excuse. But we can use the understanding we gain to hopefully help or prevent the next person.

And this is no different. I had said before, there is a dangerous game being playing within a certain section of the population that trying to put label and degenerated logic in explaining behaviors. In another word:

But in any human story it is important to remember the word "human".

And that's exactly it. This section of the population are trying to explain 'human' behaviors based on association of political belief, rather than the root of human being.

but neither does granting them the privilege of examining their reasoning when they are clearly unwilling to do the same for anyone else.

The reason we ask for understanding is not for the shake of granting these misbehavior the privilege of being understood as you put it, we ask that for our own shake. If you want to make a plan that will include millions or even billion of people, want it or not you have to understand and account for as many possibilities as you can. And I had said this before (in that long ass post I made a few pages back) but I will reemphasize this: I believe that the reason some of us can still be reasonable atm is because we can afford to be reasonable.

We're in week 6 or week 9 of the lock down now in the US depending on where you are. Why do you think protest only start popping up in the last couple of weeks? And hypothetically if the situation is bad enough that the lock down are extended for another 4 weeks, or even 8 weeks. What do you think will happen? Just like the people protesting now weren't protesting a months and a half ago, it could be at that point in the future some of the very same people who calmly sitting at home right now laughing at these "idiot irresponsible protesters" will become those protesters themselves 2 months down the line. You can certainly argue the necessity from a science perspective, but you have to understand the necessity from the human perspective as well.

[CBJ]

There is really no need to be so patronising. I understand exactly what Incubi said, and to a certain extent I agree with it. I was simply pointing out the irony that the people he is asking others to be "understanding" of clearly have absolutely zero intention of returning the favour. They are using threats and force while we sit, twiddling our thumbs and talking about their motivation.

[RegisterMe]

You can certainly argue the necessity from a science perspective, but you have to understand the necessity from the human perspective as well.

I think you're missing something there. Why aren't we seeing equivalent levels of protest in Italy, South Korea, Germany, Taiwan, the UK, Spain, New Zealand, France etc? Not to mention I don't think weaponry is required for peaceful protest.

I'm not saying that there's no protest in those countries, and I'm certainly not saying that there isn't a level of unhappiness with the situation, but protest? Not so much.

[Mightysword]

There is really no need to be so patronising. I understand exactly what Incubi said, and to a certain extent I agree with it. I was simply pointing out the irony that the people he is asking others to be "understanding" of clearly have absolutely zero intention of returning the favour. They are using threats and force while we sit, twiddling our thumbs and talking about their motivation.

I don't see that irony myself though in respect to what he said though. After all he (Incubi) is not the one protesting with a gun, right? He's asking for understanding from what I see as a mediator. Also from a collectible experience I don't think it works in the 'an eye for an eye' apply here, at least in the West?

About the patronizing part I'll have to make it formal here. I won't deny it since now you are the second person mention it in a short time span, so I assume that accusation must have some merit. But as of now, I'm cluecless of why you two are seeing (CBJ and RegisterMe) it that way. I'm opened to change if you can be specific. But it's quite frustrating to be told I'm being patronized while having no intention of doing so, and despite tried to explain myself I got no specific feedback why I'm accused of that. English is not my first language, as such I tend to use examples and over-explaining things because in my mind, I simply want to make sure my core point get across (hence why my posts tend to be long). So consider this a formal request, and you two can talk to me via PM to not derailing the thead. If you are to accuse me of patronizing, I would hope you will take the effort to explain why.

[Mightysword]

You can certainly argue the necessity from a science perspective, but you have to understand the necessity from the human perspective as well.

I think you're missing something there. Why aren't we seeing equivalent levels of protest in Italy, South Korea, Germany, Taiwan, the UK, Spain, New Zealand, France etc? Not to mention I don't think weaponry is required for peaceful protest.

I'm not saying that there's no protest in those countries, and I'm certainly not saying that there isn't a level of unhappiness with the situation, but protest? Not so much.

Because human also comes from different culture? And to be clear, I am NOT a fan of the US culture. I think it's self-entitled, nut, irresponsible even. As an asian I 'adore' my own culture, especially how the population grith their teeth through hard-time. But the point is, whatever it is, the US culture is the US culture, it is what it is. Feel free to criticize it as much as you want, but if you gonna make a plan for the US population, it's what you got to work with. And for the plan to work, it would have to be something that account for US's culture characteristic.

I also want to point out something here, and I wonder if this is what my posts patronizing: someone from outside the US may talk about this issue simply as news point on their TV, which make it much easier to play the role of arbiter for what right or wrong. My perspective as a local is even IF I'm agree with you, I can't run from the fact that I have to work with it, even if it's wrong.

Tbh, I feel like isn't the goal post being moved a bit here? You can verify for yourself: go back in this very thread to late Jan/early Feb and look at our own very posts then, when COVID-19 was still something in China's backyard. Looking at the measure China was using back then didn't we (including me) already said that those measure will never hold in West? Did we all already acknowledge it will create problems due to the value of freedom in western culture? So the 'understanding' I'm advocating for here ... seem like most people already have it, but was it only because at that time, we were talking under the assumption our own backyard wouldn't become a mess? 'cause if hindsight is the case, than isn't exactly what I'm trying to say?

So if anything, I think we're fairing better than expected considering the majority of the country had quietly obey the lock down for the past 2 months. But these protests shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

[Vertigo 7]

You can certainly argue the necessity from a science perspective, but you have to understand the necessity from the human perspective as well.

I think you're missing something there. Why aren't we seeing equivalent levels of protest in Italy, South Korea, Germany, Taiwan, the UK, Spain, New Zealand, France etc? Not to mention I don't think weaponry is required for peaceful protest.

I'm not saying that there's no protest in those countries, and I'm certainly not saying that there isn't a level of unhappiness with the situation, but protest? Not so much.

Well it's because Americans, in general, are arrogant and self-entitled. You have these people, like the ones protesting, that believe their own wants and desires should come before anyone and everything else. And they know their argument is flawed from the get go so they resort to arming themselves to try to use intimidation, not unlike ISIS and Al Qaeda, to make their point, all the while being manipulated and prodded on by a wanna-be dictator. You just don't have those things in other countries.

[RegisterMe]

I also want to point out something here, and I wonder if this is what my posts patronizing: someone from outside the US may talk about this issue simply as news point on their TV, which make it much easier to play the role of arbiter for what right or wrong. My perspective as a local is even IF I'm agree with you, I can't run from the fact that I have to work with it, even if it's wrong.

Now that's a very good point, and not patronising at all . And you're right, I am an observer from afar. But the thing that stands out to me is that in the US you do not have a cross section of people from all walks of life, across all states, protesting consistently. From what I can tell (and I could be wrong, if so I'm happy to have it pointed out) the "anti-lockdown" protests principally consist of a narrow demographic, and are occurring in a limited number of states.

EDIT: And I'll respond re "patronising etc" by PM.
EDIT: Forgot a word, durr.

[Vertigo 7]

I also want to point out something here, and I wonder if this is what my posts patronizing: someone from outside the US may talk about this issue simply as news point on their TV, which make it much easier to play the role of arbiter for what right or wrong. My perspective as a local is even IF I'm agree with you, I can't run from the fact that I have to work with it, even if it's wrong.

Now that's a very point, and not patronising at all . And you're right, I am an observer from afar. But the thing that stands out to me is that in the US you do not have a cross section of people from all walks of life, across all states, protesting consistently. From what I can tell (and I could be wrong, if so I'm happy to have it pointed out) the "anti-lockdown" protests principally consist of a narrow demographic, and are occurring in a limited number of states.

EDIT: And I'll respond re "patronising etc" by PM.

Your assessment is bang on. Furthermore, more than 70% of the country is willing to listen to physicians and other scientists on dealing with covid.

This is the first time most of these people have had to deal with anything akin to a true hardship and they, clearly, can't handle it.

[Vertigo 7]

One of Trumpty Dumpty's valets has tested positive for covid.

[Incubi]

You can certainly argue the necessity from a science perspective, but you have to understand the necessity from the human perspective as well.

I think you're missing something there. Why aren't we seeing equivalent levels of protest in Italy, South Korea, Germany, Taiwan, the UK, Spain, New Zealand, France etc? Not to mention I don't think weaponry is required for peaceful protest.

I'm not saying that there's no protest in those countries, and I'm certainly not saying that there isn't a level of unhappiness with the situation, but protest? Not so much.

When someone is looking to make an impact they will often use symbols that will make an impact, and that makes for the question of just how genuine the use of those symbols were, they certainty seem to have nothing to do with the issue beyond making the mistake for politicizing the virus; thank you Trump for that, and that would be because the governor is a democrat or maybe the fallacy of thinking it as a Chinese disease? I just don't see how this is a white supremacy issue to warrant the use of those flags. Maybe some white supremist just happened to be there and wanted to represent? Unfortunate to say the least. Like anyone who only cares about their own race, it puts a nasty film on everything else. I am not excusing their presence or the fear tactics used. And I am treating it like trolling.The Michigan protest was a shock to me to be honest. But I don't give stupidity a platform. That is not as unamerican as you think, the right to freedom of speech does not mean anyone has to listen. I would also like to add that those flags weren’t always representing themselves because some people accused the governor of being a Nazi. Which is absurd because not only is she a Democrat but people are just throwing out negative terms without knowing what they’re saying. So they might have been holding out those flags in accusation rather than representation. None of the above was the deeper cause of what happened.


Anxiety. It is a much misunderstood word. Many take it as just another word for fear, but it is not. It is hard to discuss it without derailing, but one thing about anxiety is people with it are not always able to tap into reason. Now add mob mentality in protest.The question of if this virus is really more threatening than the flu is unfortunately still debated. Our unemployment is at a rate that we have not seen since the depression. The virus is being politicized in the White house. Another thing about anxiety is it turns people inside and causes an unhealthy and unreasonable level of self preservation that often does more harm than good. It is difficult to understand anxiety when the word is simply synonymous of fear. So it is really surprising that people more anxious of the economic impact to their lives and possibly non believers of the severity of the virus to not practice social distancing at a rally? to many of the people the economic impact to their lives is more real than a virus that at the time has not yet claimed more lives than the flu. it is very human to attack what we do understand than try to understand what we do not.

Honestly I blame the politicizing of the virus for the behavior we have seen in American protest. People isolated at home in communities that are not used to isolation for weeks on end developing mental health issues. And Covid-19 is just as sensationalized as every other issue which has caused a lot of distrust in our sources of information. So much propaganda and fear and personal interest bombarding the minds of isolated people without jobs.

Please do not think I am in anyway excusing the behavior. Anymore than I would excuse anti Semitism in the middle east or national front protest in England or anti Muslim behavior in Jerusalem. The behavior is more global than you may think.

p.s. If I seem more level headed than I used to, it is due to my own struggles with an anxiety disorder that I never knew that I had. I have grown a lot as a result. I am also more articulate than I used to be because I am less hot headed. I do still tend to misrepresent myself a lot so hopefully I am more clear in my intent with this post.

[Mightysword]

Maybe some white supremist just happened to be there and wanted to represent? Unfortunate to say the least. Like anyone who only cares about their own race, it puts a nasty film on everything else.

Well put. There is no denying there are some very undesirable elements exist in these protests, but they are not the only elements. The root of the protest can't be characterized by simply what chosen to be in front of the camera.

Honestly I blame the politicizing of the virus for the behavior we have seen in American protest. People isolated at home in communities that are not used to isolation for weeks on end developing mental health issues. And Covid-19 is just as sensationalized as every other issue which has caused a lot of distrust in our sources of information. So much propaganda and fear and personal interest bombarding the minds of isolated people without jobs.

And this is basically my stick. If I had come across more aggressive regarding this topic than I apology, but because this is my stick. Most people have a stick, for some it can be Trump, for some others it is Brexit, and for me - it's the media. It's not a new behaviors and I am already often apathetic toward it. But what gets me that even in the face of such unprecedented crisis, the media (on both sides) still treat this as a same old opportunism - never let a good crisis go to waste - or something like that, and to put it bluntly it triggers me. The collateral damage of this behavior to a vulnerable population is a lot more significance now than it is normally.

@RegisterMe: per our discussion I'm trying to practice what you said, let's see how well it gonna go

[Vertigo 7]

You can certainly argue the necessity from a science perspective, but you have to understand the necessity from the human perspective as well.

I think you're missing something there. Why aren't we seeing equivalent levels of protest in Italy, South Korea, Germany, Taiwan, the UK, Spain, New Zealand, France etc? Not to mention I don't think weaponry is required for peaceful protest.

I'm not saying that there's no protest in those countries, and I'm certainly not saying that there isn't a level of unhappiness with the situation, but protest? Not so much.

When someone is looking to make an impact they will often use symbols that will make an impact, and that makes for the question of just how genuine the use of those symbols were, they certainty seem to have nothing to do with the issue beyond making the mistake for politicizing the virus; thank you Trump for that, and that would be because the governor is a democrat or maybe the fallacy of thinking it as a Chinese disease? I just don't see how this is a white supremacy issue to warrant the use of those flags. Maybe some white supremist just happened to be there and wanted to represent? Unfortunate to say the least. Like anyone who only cares about their own race, it puts a nasty film on everything else. I am not excusing their presence or the fear tactics used. And I am treating it like trolling.The Michigan protest was a shock to me to be honest. But I don't give stupidity a platform. That is not as unamerican as you think, the right to freedom of speech does not mean anyone has to listen. I would also like to add that those flags weren’t always representing themselves because some people accused the governor of being a Nazi. Which is absurd because not only is she a Democrat but people are just throwing out negative terms without knowing what they’re saying. So they might have been holding out those flags in accusation rather than representation. None of the above was the deeper cause of what happened.

I think you're reaching a bit. When you're in a crowd of armed white people waving a Nazi flag, no one is going to stop to ask if you're calling someone else a Nazi or if you're saying you're a Nazi.

The entire purpose of flags in the first place was to identify the nation that a territory or military unit belonged to. Their intent is pretty clear - "I'm white, do what I say or else". And if others in the crowd had a problem with the Nazi's in their presence, they sure didn't do much to keep the wrong message from being sent. They seemed to be just as content to scream and yell and act like animals as the Nazis at their side. Their actions are pushing the boundaries of the literal definition of treason (the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government). Free speech will only go so far to give them a pass. At some point, they have to be and will be held accountable for their actions, especially if they try to make good on their threats.

Anxiety. It is a much misunderstood word. Many take it as just another word for fear, but it is not. It is hard to discuss it without derailing, but one thing about anxiety is people with it are not always able to tap into reason. Now add mob mentality in protest.The question of if this virus is really more threatening than the flu is unfortunately still debated.

If by debated, you mean Trump getting on camera and saying "deerrrr you guyz should drink bleach, I'm no doctor but I has a good thing where my brain should be", then maybe... but every legitimate scientist says there is no debate, this is way worse than any flu, and more than 70% of Americans agree with the scientific consensus.

Our unemployment is at a rate that we have not seen since the depression. The virus is being politicized in the White house. Another thing about anxiety is it turns people inside and causes an unhealthy and unreasonable level of self preservation that often does more harm than good. It is difficult to understand anxiety when the word is simply synonymous of fear. So it is really surprising that people more anxious of the economic impact to their lives and possibly non believers of the severity of the virus to not practice social distancing at a rally? to many of the people the economic impact to their lives is more real than a virus that at the time has not yet claimed more lives than the flu. it is very human to attack what we do understand than try to understand what we do not.

Honestly I blame the politicizing of the virus for the behavior we have seen in American protest. People isolated at home in communities that are not used to isolation for weeks on end developing mental health issues. And Covid-19 is just as sensationalized as every other issue which has caused a lot of distrust in our sources of information. So much propaganda and fear and personal interest bombarding the minds of isolated people without jobs.

I do agree with you that the virus has been completely politicized by Trump and his cronies at Faux News. From the beginning he was saying it was a media hoax, then the next great democrat hoax, then when it hit, it was the democrats fault, then it was Obama's fault, and oh, btw governors, especially you in blue states, go figure this out on your own. But I can't agree that mental health issues are fueling the protests. I'm sure there's some, don't get me wrong. When you see fat bearded white guys in overalls armed with assault rifles in a group, it's a safe bet that there's going to be more than a couple of them that are one PBR and a voice in their head away from emptying their magazines into a crowd. But a lot of these folks were just looking for an excuse and permission from dear leader to go and do what they've always wanted to do. Trump knew exactly what he was doing when he began demonizing the media and the democrats. He's openly encouraged armed revolt against them on more than one occasion. I'm honestly not surprised that this happened, more surprised that it didn't happen sooner.

Please do not think I am in anyway excusing the behavior. Anymore than I would excuse anti Semitism in the middle east or national front protest in England or anti Muslim behavior in Jerusalem. The behavior is more global than you may think.

p.s. If I seem more level headed than I used to, it is due to my own struggles with an anxiety disorder that I never knew that I had. I have grown a lot as a result. I am also more articulate than I used to be because I am less hot headed. I do still tend to misrepresent myself a lot so hopefully I am more clear in my intent with this post.

For the record, I didn't think you were excusing their behavior and I did not misunderstand your intent. I'm simply offering you my opposing view. I know I can be crass, and I make no apologies for that. But you're no white supremacist and you're not trying to give us lectures like you're the next Dalai Lama yet you hate America, so I have no beef with you.

[RegisterMe]

It is hard to discuss it without derailing, but one thing about anxiety is people with it are not always able to tap into reason. Now add mob mentality in protest.

Yes, I picked up on the implicit point about socioeconomic anxiety in your earlier post and I completely agreed with it. I'm going to put "mental health level anxiety" aside for now. Not because I believe it to be unimportant in general, or to disparage it in any way, but because in terms of these protests I don't think it's nearly as material as "general anxiety". That having been said, what really riles me about this is that such anxiety can be addressed. It can be addressed by good leadership, it can be addressed by training, it can be addressed by education and it can be addressed by investment in disadvantaged communities. All of which, I fear, are sadly lacking in the US at the moment. The anxiety is real. I understand that. It can be addressed. That this is not being done is what pisses me off.

What's disconcerting about this is that it reveals something very unpleasant about human nature. The next point serves to illustrate this well, and is particularly relevant in COVID-19 times. I noticed it in myself the other day queuing for the supermarket. Why is it that I am happier when there are a hundred and twenty people in the queue in front of me, and thirty people behind me, than I am when there are a hundred people in front of me, and nobody behind me? It's because all too often we, as a species, are happy with our lot as long as we are better off than somebody else. I recognised what it was, laughed at myself, kicked myself up the arse for being a dickhead, and waited patiently in line.

I did not get my AR and invade my local council. Nor did I resent the people ahead of me in the queue. Nor did I resent measures put in place to ensure that we could all queue in a fair manner.

EDIT: I should probably add that during something like a lockdown we lose agency, freedom and right to expression compared with "normal life". Protest is not an unnatural result, especially when trust in the government and experts in general has been under brutal assault by the county's leadership for the last three years. No matter how legitimate that feeling of lost agency is throwing red meat to your base (as Trump has done repeatedly) in such circumstances is unhelpful at best and could be dangerous at worst (as we'll likely see in those states seeing the protests).

[Vertigo 7]

So now Pence's press secretary has tested positive for covid. And apparently, Trump is flipping out on his staff for allowing him to be exposed to covid. But he's still okay with exposing the rest of the country to it. Without Trump directly executing people, there's not much more he can do to prove that the lives of people have no value to him.

[Incubi]

I find it odd that I was given validation under the assumption of hating America.I am not your typical patriotic American but I am American and I am glad I live here. I am not a patriot. Which is good because patriots are a threat to the very country their patriotic too. I’m just very unhappy with my presidency and I find my country to be very hypocritical on its own values. That is a whole another subject that I do not want to derail this thread. I do however want to suggest that if hating America is influencing opinions of what’s happening here. Please dig a little deeper As you would for any other country. Except France though you should for France too haha.

[Vertigo 7]

I find it odd that I was given validation under the assumption of hating America.I am not your typical patriotic American but I am American and I am glad I live here. I am not a patriot. Which is good because patriots are a threat to the very country their patriotic too. I’m just very unhappy with my presidency and I find my country to be very hypocritical on its own values. That is a whole another subject that I do not want to derail this thread. I do however want to suggest that if hating America is influencing opinions of what’s happening here. Please dig a little deeper As you would for any other country. Except France though you should for France too haha.

lol no no no, that's not what I meant. I meant that you did not act like a Dalai Lama that hates America and feels the need to lecture us on how we should think or act, like someone else 'round here does.