[MOD] Miscellaneous IZ Combat Tweaks

[w.evans]

Nothing specific at the moment, although I might very well take you up on that offer if something comes up.

With this mod list that you posted earlier:

CIWR
MICT
Marine Repairs
Capital Ship Bridges
TAF
Yorrik Auto Trade

Shouldn't be any conflicts, or anything that might influence combat movement. I'm not familiar with Marine Repairs, but it doesn't sound like something that'll conflict.

[Scoob]

Sorry, meant MarineRebalance...I'm sure you know that one

Oh, I did an edit of my prior post in case you missed it. Seeing some very odd behaviour when I compare MICT navigation to vanilla.

Scoob.

[w.evans]

Sorry, meant MarineRebalance...I'm sure you know that one

Oh, that old thing. Yeah, should be fine.

Re: Boost: they tend to make these huge swooping boost maneouvers in this last battle I tested. They do seem to turn before boosting, however, they tend to kind of swoop while they're boosting as well. To be honest, I don't know why they're doing that. Instructions are to point towards the precise spot where they want to go, then activate boost engines and go there. I think that it's better than the activate boost, then turn in place, then kind of strafe sideways with boost engines on. Certainly prettier. Not sure if it's more effective than the former behavior, although I think it is since turning without boost engines active appears faster than turning with them active.

About the move order from Lava Flow to Fiendish Moloch, that shouldn't be affected by MICT. Giving such an order will call move.generic, which will, in turn, call move.nohighway if you're ordering a capship, and MICT doesn't touch those. I don't doubt that behavior in your game is somehow being changed with MICT as opposed to without, but I'm sorry to say that I simply don't know why that is. Shouldn't.

One thing that is changed regarding that is that move.generic.carrier instead of move.generic is called if ordering a ship to move to a different Zone, but only if you have the Carrier mod installed, which you don't, so shouldn't be changed.

Also, the part of capship behavior that is changed by MICT is very specific: the code for combat movement, and that for escort movement. Both of these are highly automated, and can't be directly triggered by player-given commands except for indirectly affecting aggro by giving attack/patrol orders. And even when given a patrol order, MICT doesn't kick in until the ship actually finds a target and goes red alert.

[Scoob]

Very odd. I can't explain the oddities I see then. Currently running without MICT and behaviour has been fine. While ships will not boost or jump to targets, obviously, they do appear to turn to face and fly towards more readily.

I just realised I've totally forgotten to mention that Steam had downloaded the v3.60 BETA for me before I tried this mod, so I'm currently running a base game of v3.60 RC2 rather than v3.53 - guess that might have a HUGE impact depending on what's been changed in the current beta. I had a quick browse of the list, but nothing leapt out at me...I am half asleep though lol.

Scoob.

[w.evans]

Quick update: I think I figured out why they swoop when boosting.

Remember how they're supposed to figure out which side to orient towards the enemy to inflict maximum damage?

They turn to where they want to go,
then activate boost,
then move forward,
but in a lot of cases, the side that ends up oriented towards the target isn't the optimal side, so they overshoot, swoop back, and end with the correct side oriented towards the target.

I think it's ok since they're more vulnerable when they're not moving so fast, and they want to be vulnerable only when they have the most guns pointed at the enemy.

Any objections to keeping it this way?

Also, is everyone seeing this too? That they aren't strafing much, or at all, while boosting?

.......
edit: am running 3.60 RC2 as well, so we're running the same game version.

[Scoob]

Ok, that makes sense. However, when you ask a ship to attack something, or it does so on its own while patrolling, I think you really want it to get guns on target as soon as possible - even if they're not the best guns right away.

My preferred behaviour would be for a ship to boost/jump to get close to the target, but still out of firing range, before then turning slightly as it approaches to get the most guns on the target. Also most ships are basically symmetrical, so left / right facing the target makes little difference, unless a ship has taken damage.

Tell me, if say all the weapons on the LEFT side of my Taranis were taken out, does that mean it will try to bring the RIGHT side to face any target? Can't say I've ever noticed this, but I'm not so observant at times.

Personally, when I ask a ship to attack something, I want it to get on with it. Extra time taken before the target is engaged - and one assumes agro'd enough to make it's attacker it's target - is more time the target might be causing havoc. So, taking out that Freighter / Mining ship you're trying to protect, or actually getting in close to attack a station. Or even simply bypassing combat all together to get deeper into the Sector.

Neither behaviour is wrong as such, I just prefer the "get on with it and stop dancing around" approach

Scoob.

[w.evans]

Tell me, if say all the weapons on the LEFT side of my Taranis were taken out, does that mean it will try to bring the RIGHT side to face any target? Can't say I've ever noticed this, but I'm not so observant at times.

Yup. If there's no damage, they default to left, I think. Not sure.

Personally, when I ask a ship to attack something, I want it to get on with it. Extra time taken before the target is engaged - and one assumes agro'd enough to make it's attacker it's target - is more time the target might be causing havoc. So, taking out that Freighter / Mining ship you're trying to protect, or actually getting in close to attack a station. Or even simply bypassing combat all together to get deeper into the Sector.

Neither behaviour is wrong as such, I just prefer the "get on with it and stop dancing around" approach

Agreed. And for the first approach, as long as their jump drive is operational, they have jump fuel, and they're far enough that it doesn't make sense to just go there with normal engines, they should always prefer to jump in with guns already trained on target. Only ever see them boost on subsequent moves when their jump drive isn't charged up yet.

[w.evans]

6.Aug.2015 - Miscellaneous IZ Combat Tweaks interim update v0.21.1

All MICT Captains now require neural implants which connect their deepest thoughts, desires, motivations, and actions to the Skunk's multi-function display.

Battle display informs you of the decisions of your MICT captains in real-time.
Feedback on this much appreciated.

[Scoob]

6.Aug.2015 - Miscellaneous IZ Combat Tweaks interim update v0.21.1

All MICT Captains now require neural implants which connect their deepest thoughts, desires, motivations, and actions to the Skunk's multi-function display.

Battle display informs you of the decisions of your MICT captains in real-time.
Feedback on this much appreciated.

Nice. Will download in a mo!

Oh, one thing I just observed (yet, MICT active again ) is a somewhat overly combat eager captain on my Fulmekron.

There we were patrolling the Zone, when I noticed a Titurel boosting in. The captain of my Fulmekron decides to initiate a jump to the Titurel as it's en-route. However, this leads to my Fulmekron jumping to where the Titurel was at the time the jump was initiated! Basically, if he'd waited the Titurel would have come to him within about three seconds, as it is, he jumped to near the edge of a Zone, and is now boosting back.

It said he was a 5* Captain on he resume...someones been telling fibs...

Scoob.

[Scoob]

Ok, first impression - I like it. However, in my current Zone I have two ships patrolling. One gives me an update and, a second later, the other gives its update. As I read that (not the fastest reader me) it can often get overwritten by the first again.

It is great seeing that stats as the game sees them, but presentation will always be tricky. Not sure what to suggest here, the live data is great, but it can quickly become a little too much to take in.

I assume this first release you're basically giving us EVERYTHING, and you'd like us to decide which information is most useful, and how often we'd like it? Needless to say, I'll keep playing

Additional general feedback:

I've noticed that my ships also attempt to jump to a target that's fleeing the Zone. When they do so, they do not pursue the target out of the Zone, however they do them seem to get stuck.

Just now a Titurel and three Sennin jumped in to my current Zone, my Fulmekron (me on board) and my Taranis - both following Patrol Zone orders - engage. The three Sennin are taken down quickly and the Titurel tries to flee as the last is destroyed. My Fulmekron jumps to near where the Titurel was engages boost and turns to follow, but quickly stops in space, while still showing the boost effect. Ship then does not move, and is stuck with the order "Attacking REI Titurel" until I issue another order.

Scoob.

[w.evans]

I assume this first release you're basically giving us EVERYTHING, and you'd like us to decide which information is most useful, and how often we'd like it? Needless to say, I'll keep playing

Not quite everything. The target acquisition, engagement, and orientation stuff isn't displayed, just the movement stuff; but yes, please.

Possibly leave out the general movement and station-keeping stuff?

In my copy, I have everything written to the logbook, which I can read at leisure, but that quickly leads to savegame bloat if the logbook isn't cleared periodically, so probably not a good idea for public consumption.

I've noticed that my ships also attempt to jump to a target that's fleeing the Zone. When they do so, they do not pursue the target out of the Zone, however they do them seem to get stuck.

Just now a Titurel and three Sennin jumped in to my current Zone, my Fulmekron (me on board) and my Taranis - both following Patrol Zone orders - engage. The three Sennin are taken down quickly and the Titurel tries to flee as the last is destroyed. My Fulmekron jumps to near where the Titurel was engages boost and turns to follow, but quickly stops in space, while still showing the boost effect. Ship then does not move, and is stuck with the order "Attacking REI Titurel" until I issue another order.

Now this is a problem. They should just pursue into the target's zone, and the combat movement is supposed to plot points into the target's zone regardless of where they are. But if that's happening, obviously not working as well as I expected. Could limit movement to the ship's zone and have pursuit be handled by vanilla and see if that's better. Hard to test for cases like that, though.

Unless your ship was on a patrol order? There's something in the patrol script that restricts them to the zone that they're in when combat is initiated. Could be what's causing the conflict. If so, it's possible to override that restriction.

[Scoob]

Yes, ship was on a Patrol Zone order at the time, rather than an attack object.

A Sennin just entered my Zone, so I issued an explicit Attack Object order. As luck would have it (for this testing) the Sennin was on its way to another Zone and my Fulmekron followed the ship, but soon got left behind. So, it didn't crap out at the Zone border, like with a Patrol Zone command.

Unfortunately this behaviour does make Zone patrols very ineffective potentially. I'm currently guarding a Zone with a Jump Beacon, so LOTS of enemy ships arrive, then boost away, this really confuses the Zone Patrol. I feel if the target leave the Zone that's being patrolled, the ship should search for other targets IN the Zone and either attack these, or resume patrolling the Zone until something turns up.

Hmm, after I aborted my Fulmekron following that Sennin, something odd happened. I order the ship to fly back to Lava Flow - it was in Empty Space - and though it's showing the boost effect, it's actually just crawling along. Additionally, I've suddenly found myself a good 40-50km above the elliptic...no jump occured! Weird.

Scoob.

[w.evans]

Unfortunately this behaviour does make Zone patrols very ineffective potentially. I'm currently guarding a Zone with a Jump Beacon, so LOTS of enemy ships arrive, then boost away, this really confuses the Zone Patrol. I feel if the target leave the Zone that's being patrolled, the ship should search for other targets IN the Zone and either attack these, or resume patrolling the Zone until something turns up.

Which? It does sound like the patrol restriction is conflicting with my pursuit code. I could:

- override the patrol restriction, in which case your patrolling ships might go haring off after BlackRain's and Rubini's patrols boosting off on lightning raids leaving the beacon zone unpatrolled,
- OR restrict combat to the zone where combat is initiated, which will however affect ALL combat where MICT ships are involved.

but not both.

(Myself, I'm inclined to override the patrol restriction.)

Hmm, after I aborted my Fulmekron following that Sennin, something odd happened. I order the ship to fly back to Lava Flow - it was in Empty Space - and though it's showing the boost effect, it's actually just crawling along. Additionally, I've suddenly found myself a good 40-50km above the elliptic...no jump occured! Weird.

Sounds like someone's playing with the warp command. Can't blame 'em, it's fun. That IS used in MICT, but only when a ship's escorting another ship, and in very specific situations. If a ship warped by its own, sounds like something else. Might ask Rubini if his mining ship evasion stuff might be catching fighting ships by mistake. Should be a spot-check. I don't have their latest code, unfortunately, so can't check myself.

[Scoob]

Tricky one indeed.

My in-game goal currently is purely to defend this Zone, as it's a staging area (jump beacon) most ships will be boosting or jumping away, so it's likely the trickiest of Zones to manage in that sense.

Personally, I don't want my ships wandering off, I want them staying in the Zone I allocate them too - they might be protecting a mining area or a trade route for example. Keeping resource areas or waypoints like this clear is important, especially with the extra activity and invasions CWIR adds.

The issue I have is my MICT ships are not proving very effective at this task currently.

Of the two choices you offer, will a ship on Patrol that leaves the current Zone in pursuit of an enemy return do the Zone when it's done? If yes, then it's an option, but if ALL ships patrolling said Zone decide to leave at the same time...well, Zone is undefended as you say.

If the patrol stays in the Zone, then that's fine. Sure targets will "escape" them quite easily as they head for their target Zones, but they're the problem of the defenders in said Zone now!

I'd not be surprised if the extra activity my game has due to CWIR is leading to some odd behaviour from MICT, though BlackRain strongly recommends using it. Still, this is the point of testing, though I seem to get lots of weird issues for some reason!

Gonna head off shortly, doubtless I'll catch you tomorrow.

Scoob.

[w.evans]

7.Aug.2015 - Miscellaneous IZ Combat Tweaks interim branch updated to v0.21.2

The MICT Captains' Union has demanded that a modicum of privacy be accorded to them due to their heroism, unparalleled courage, and for the sake of common decency. "Besides," they argue, "the fact that my favorite pancakes are slathered with strawberry sauce can hardly be of relevance in a tactical situation."

While their choice of pancake sauce is, in fact, of significant interest, the Overlords of MICT have decided that their thoughts regarding extra-curricular activities after consuming said pancakes are not of interest, nor of tactical relevance.

Battle display feedback slightly reduced.
Ships will not pursue beyond the zone in which combat is initiated.

[xrook]

is it possible to give even the small ships booster??

the thing i seem to notice is the squad always gets left behind when the leader goes to another zone

i set up my tituriel to move to another zone and his escorts (2 balors and 3 malcheons) always gets left behind
and i dont think the balor escorts were using boosters to get there, just their normal engines, while the tituriel uses its 3000 booster speed to get there quickly

EDIT: oh wait, the balors ARE using their booster, just a little late

EDIT2:
the balor that boosted late was able to keep up with the tituriel

the other balor that boosted early stopped midway and only used his normal engine speed afterwards
http://i61.tinypic.com/2rc7vkj.jpg

[w.evans]

Hey xrook,

is it possible to give even the small ships booster??

It is, but beyond the scope of this mod. Mod I know of that does that is Observe's Transcend - Lost Colony mod, the variant without highways adds boosters to all small ships.

the thing i seem to notice is the squad always gets left behind when the leader goes to another zone

Yup, unfortunately, haven't yet found a way to coordinate their jumps and boosts when moving to different zones, so they'll jump/boost after their squadron leader gets to the next zone.. If you use MICT_supp2, they shouldn't take long to catch up, though.

[xrook]

i wonder if this is yours or vanilla

[General] ======================================
[=ERROR=] Error in AI script fight.attack.object on entity 0x2af99: Evaluated value 'null' is not of type component
* Expression: $target
[General] ======================================

[w.evans]

i wonder if this is yours or vanilla

[General] ======================================
[=ERROR=] Error in AI script fight.attack.object on entity 0x2af99: Evaluated value 'null' is not of type component
* Expression: $target
[General] ======================================

Thanks. Could be mine, although the vanilla script will spew the same error if $target is invalid or nonexistent since I didn't change how $target is acquired except for the target prioritization stuff in the escort script. Usually happens if a target is destroyed after fight.attack.object is called, but before the combat movement script kicks in.

[w.evans]

MCT in the Steam Workshop updated up to v.0.16

This includes all of the latest MICT and MOCT updates published up to early this morning, except for the Battle Display.