X-Rebirth No piloting Capital ships!!??

[Larent]

Rebirth is dead for me too now, at least as long as a fan mod fixes the "problem".

[Mark87]

My own capital ship was always the reason why I played X3. No other Space Sim offered that. And now you take that out? Stupid. Just plain stupid.

And NO, being able to buy a capital ship, and then watching it crash into the next station because only the ****** AI controls it IS NOT THE SAME.

[victornun]

Maybe we should actually see what it is they're doing before we condemn it.

right originally I only read the first 5 pages and wanted to congratulate gothsheep on that post, then i went and checked the last page or two to see if it was still relevant. It is.

The majority of the planet do what you peeps do, jump to conclusions without the intermediary process called THINKING, and play follow the leader aka SHEEPLE. don't be a drama queen and announce the fact that egosoft have lost another customer before even YOU have decided that. 50%+ of this topic is guesswork, it's not a sales pitch.

everyone acting like they're egosoft's sole investor is pissing me off :/

edit: and guy above me, you're blatantly basing your opinion of the NEXT game, on the CURRENT game, you FOOL.

[Nanook]

...
1. Ever had a chance to see a docked USN carrier in real life? This thing is ***HUGE***. Somehow Egosoft didn't quite manage to convey the scale difference...

Ever see a USN carrier on a perfectly flat ocean with no other ships or anything else nearby? If you didn't know it was a huge carrier, you'd have no idea how big it was. Scale is perceived in relation to surroundings, and the surroundings in space can't convey the scale of ships, or even stations, very well. You need to use the external camera view of your little M5 up close to a Teladi Phoenix some time. I think the huge size of the Phoenix will be quite evident.

The problem with the perceived size in X is that the camera use a fish-eye scaling zoom so everything appears much smaller than it actually is. Yes like you said if I do a size by size comparison a M5 is much smaller than a Titan, but when I'm inside the cockpit of a M5 and do a flyby, the Titan honestly doesn't look "that" big. Whether in Freespace for example, flying along side a Destroyer give you that kind of awe inspiring feeling and you realize how small you are comparing to it. The funny thing is in term of the size ratio, the Titan/Disco is greater than Hecade/Hercules.


The size is alright, but something got to be done about the distance/size reduction ratio with the X camera.

You can change your field of view in TC to near normal if you wish. And that's how I play. It's a tradeoff, do you want 'realistic' views or a very wide field of view. You can't have both, even in the real world, I might add. Take a look at the rear view mirror of your car on the passenger's side, for a prime example. What you're expecting out of the game is, IMO, not a realistic request. As for your Freespace comparison, it seems to me you simply aren't flying close enough the TC capital ships, and perhaps a little too fast.

So here's my recommendation. Slow down, fly closer, and set your field of view to the smallest value in the graphics options menu. You also might go back to Freespace and check out the cockpits. Yeah, there were cockpits that restricted your field of view. And you might also want to check how fast you're going relative to the capital ships. Take your little fighter for a timed flight alongside it from bow to stern and see how long it takes. Then do the same for X3. If you have to, use an external view to get as close as possible to the capital ships. This will give you a 'true' representation of the speed vs size of the ships. You might be surprised.

[Nanook]

....
edit: and guy above me, you're blatantly basing your opinion of the NEXT game, on the CURRENT game, you FOOL.

This has just earned you a formal warning. You do not want many of these. Personal insults are not tolerated on these forums. So be warned!

[Mightysword]

You can change your field of view in TC to near normal if you wish. And that's how I play. It's a tradeoff, do you want 'realistic' views or a very wide field of view. You can't have both, even in the real world, I might add. Take a look at the rear view mirror of your car on the passenger's side, for a prime example. What you're expecting out of the game is, IMO, not a realistic request. As for your Freespace comparison, it seems to me you simply aren't flying close enough the TC capital ships, and perhaps a little too fast.

So here's my recommendation. Slow down, fly closer, and set your field of view to the smallest value in the graphics options menu. You also might go back to Freespace and check out the cockpits. Yeah, there were cockpits that restricted your field of view. And you might also want to check how fast you're going relative to the capital ships. Take your little fighter for a timed flight alongside it from bow to stern and see how long it takes. Then do the same for X3. If you have to, use an external view to get as close as possible to the capital ships. This will give you a 'true' representation of the speed vs size of the ships. You might be surprised.

Well, like I said it's not that the size wasn't there, rather it doesn't show very well. I'm talking about the feel and atmosphere here. It's not a flying to take a picture so we get an idea, but how it's perceived during normal gameplay. Fighting along side a destroyer or even corvette in Freespace give you that overwhelming feeling that a "big guy" is next to you, X doesn't convey that feeling. Even when I'm sufficiently far from them, Freespace is still big. For example on the first mission when the Psamtik first jump in, regardless where you are it will immidiately make you feel small, or when you engage the Ravana you can feel the "massiveness" of that ship. Or when the Collossus and the Sathanas square off each others, you can be as far as you want to get both of them in full view and still feel like you don't really want get in between them. In X even when I jump into a Xenon sectors with half a dozen capitalship flying around, even if they're near they still somehow feel so ... insignificant.


Then come the station. Of course, if I fly on top of a SPP panel in external camera in a M3 I can easily see how huge it is ... the problem is ... how often do we fly like that? Or in X2 the description tell you Shipyard are huge and massive ... I don't know about you, but I never get that massive impression from them, they look so ... tiny even when I dock with one. The feel of stations in Freespace give you the proper impression whenever you look at one. I want something that gives me a constant impression of meganess even when I just passing by, look out of my cockpit window, and say "that thing is huge". Like I said it's the atmosphere that is important, and I don't feel it there.


That's said I never know that option to change the FOV is there so I wonder how it will change the impression (a shame too since I played TC for many years). Well, I don't have it installed and I'm playing X2 right now so I don't think I gonna try it. If you have TC installed and can takes picture of say ... a M2 with various setting at the same distance I will be much appreciated.

[pjknibbs]

It's hardly fair comparing X capital ships to the Colossus and Sathanas. Colossus was supposed to be 12km long, IIRC--that's three times longer than the largest X3 capital ships, AFAIK!

[Mightysword]

It's hardly fair comparing X capital ships to the Colossus and Sathanas. Colossus was supposed to be 12km long, IIRC--that's three times longer than the largest X3 capital ships, AFAIK!

That's why I don't just mentioned it . A Hecade or Orion or hell, even a Deimo still give a bigger impression than a Titan. And even if they're "only" 3 times bigger than a X3 cap ship, it gives off the impression that it's at least 30 times bigger.

[AgamemnonArgon]

When the new X Universe game is released, I would hope to fly Capitals as soon as possible.
I do not plan to stop playing X3TC or X2 just because X Rebirth is being released.
I may not actually play it, but I plan to buy it as soon as it is out.
Then await the Capital ship patch, should one be added.
X3TC can keep me happy for the next ten years.
Stuck on a desert island ? THAT is the game that I would take.

[Sandalpocalypse]

IMO: The fighters in freespace were pretty damn slow compared to even slow ships in x3. X3 capitalships are in particular MUCH faster than anything you saw out of freespace or starlancer. Subspace jumps were used to reposition ships then they were free to engage in cinematic battles. X-ships have high speeds so they can actually traverse massive sectors, and need SETA on top of that to do it in reasonable playtimes.

Freespace/starlancer fighters also flew very close to capital ships, and if they collided they just bounced off.

Finally a battle-space in those games was very small to what it can be in TC, you generally got right up point blank on an enemy fighter or capital ship when you were attacking it, ranges that would be suicidally close or impossible to manage in TC.

EDIT - Personally I always got more of a thrill from the RTS elements of using capital ships, and from flying around my capital ships while they shoot electric death at enemy capitals. Modded it so the fights went slower; the speed of capital vs capital fights in vanilla was appallingly fast. I'm hoping Rebirth empathizes the RTS aspects with improved controls.

[ninth]

X3 is a fps, not an rts -.- If I wanted an rts I'd play civ. I wouldn't mind a reliance on combat command from a battlefield commander viewpoint, but as stated, that would require a FAR updated AI; but again, I'll wait until the game comes out to judge that. More importantly though, and as it's been said, I am not optimistic about losing the option to take control directly over any of my ships, cappies especially. I certainly enjoy being able to jump into a sector, and drive into the center of a xenon fleet and just watch my boreas rip them up, from the pilots seat, of course. I just don't see it being a wise decision to remove this option.

[Sandalpocalypse]

Well thats part of the problem. There is no shooter element to capital ships in X3; all gunfire is done by turrets. And despite the PPC mechanics etc. theres rarely any point to manually controlling those turrets. What player piloting does is give you a +1000% dodge bonus --> autovictory.

[hawat]

Well what stops egosoft from making an ai that also dodge instead of rushing blinding into enemy fire? ?
After all devs could make bots that could try to dodge rockets,plasma gun etc.. in fps 10 years ago already, I don't think it would it would be impossible to make an ai try to avoid enemy fire in a space game like the x series.

[Master of the Blade]

don't think it would it would be impossible to make an ai try to avoid enemy fire in a space game like the x series.

AI already can make evasive manouvers to avoid enemy attack. Not very well, admittedly, but they do. The huge advantage in evasion that the player has is the strafe drive. That's a mechanic I'd like to see toned down, equalised (AI with strafe drive, though this might make battles stupidly long) or just removed to even the field a bit.

It's summed up perfectly by Sandalpocalypse with

+1000% dodge bonus --> autovictory.

[Cycrow]

personally id prefer to see the strafe drive removed for all large ships and used just by fighters

[rwhiteruff]

personally id prefer to see the strafe drive removed for all large ships and used just by fighters

I'd rather that strafing just have reasonable per-ship values just like turn rate and acceleration.

Also I really want to be able to command capital ships, from aboard capital ships. My dream implementation would be a default external view where you issue relativistic movement commands to your bridge crew and target and fire your turrets via a choice of either letting your crew handle it or using your mouse cursor. Say selecting 'larboard turrets' and then clicking and holding down the mouse button on a nearby target to fire upon it.

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

they are not unagile, its quite easy to dodge other shots with WSAD keys. just takes a lot of training.

[rpetiger]

Flying the Cap ships just takes a different approach. The main trouble I have with flying Cap ships is when you fly too fast and ram every trader nearby. (and it counts for combat rank...)

I agree the Strafe drive needs to be more limited, perhaps based on a fraction of what your top speed is.

[Space_Ace_32]

I was under the assumption that the X games were a space SIMULATOR. Simulation games are not about how easy or hard it is to fly a ship. They are about the fact that you CAN fly it if you so choose. Simulation games should always give you the ability to fly any class of ship you want - no matter how hard it is to do so. The fans of the X series, from what I can see, are NOT casual gamers. They are fans of in-depth space simulation games. The very definition of ANY simulation game is that they are difficult and hard to learn. This is because they attempt to simulate, as close as they can, how it would be in real life.

Please don't take away capital ships - there is no reason to do so unless you are willing to say that this is no longer meant to be a space simulation game.


EDIT - I will also add that even as a simulation game this one is not very realistic as is. I have heard stories of people playing submarine simulation games for 2-3 days NON STOP just for the effect of a real sea voyage. Same goes for any sub, boat, or plane simulation game. There are many people who play them only because they simulate the real life experience so closely. I have an uncle who used to be a pilot but is now a huge fan of flight sim. He has 5 huge monitors just to simulate a real cockpit and has an attachment for his hat which allows him to look around the cockpit just by moving his head. He also has a large amount of real flight controls hooked up to his computer to even further simulate a real life flying experience. Is that easy or even easy to learn? NO! But its not about being easy, it's about being as realistic as possible! I love the X games because they are the most realistic space sim I have ever played and being able to fly capital ships is part of that realism. It sounds to me like they want to take away the ability to pilot cap ships because it is too difficult. Give me a break! Do any of us actually play this game because its easy!?

[perkint]

I was under the assumption that the X games were a space SIMULATOR

Nope. Just a game, not a simulator

It sounds to me like they want to take away the ability to pilot cap ships because it is too difficult

Not because it's too difficult. Because it isn't really fun. That's the statement made and I have to admit, I happen to agree!

I'm quite happy with being able to command the ship without actually piloting it. So long as the command structure is any good...

Tim