XR vs X4

[Santi]

I think its much simpler than that. You have the current system where remote controlled trade ships reserve wares, both player and NPC ships. These wares get removed from the storage and are gone from inventory, these are no longer available for manual trade.

I feel there is much more need for Logistics than anything else. The ability to move wares around using a CLS like system and warehouse type station so I could create a bridge between systems, that would basically allow trading of wares from the whole galaxy. This would provide more gameplay without the need to add too much complexity to managers.

As I mentioned before this is part of a lager concept, but this bit alone would drastically improve economics in the game, making things more flexible, as stiffness is indeed my biggest issue with it.

MFG

Ketraar

The issue I see is distance, the longest you have to travel, the bigger the chances of a trade offer getting reserved, either by NPC's or even your own Player ships. So it will be interesting to be able to pilot a M ship as a starter trader for sector trading, to later on, move into a L ship with jumpdrive for Cluster trading.

After thinking about it, I agree that a timing mechanism should be reserved to missions, it takes away from the freedom of stopping what you are doing to do something else, like join a fight or scoop some loot.

A CLS like system will be a very smart solution to current station problems. I like that idea a lot.

[BigBANGtheory]

for what it is worth I agree with the CLS like system too

[UniTrader]

the point with the timing is imo necesary, because otherwise the Player could simply reserve all trades he encounters and execute them at his leisure (or not at all to wait for better offers to be generated because of non-delivery) and would stall the economy completely this way. to avoid this you need to either restrict the amount of Reservations the Player can do, or let them time out (with penalties)
I prefer the time out with penalties because it would make an economical loss of the Game possible, which does not apply currently. you can only lose the Game in Fights. (yes, you can make Losses with economy/trading, but you can not lose the Game this way because you cannot spend more money than you have)

Also i have no intention of making this timing tight in any way - my thought was maybe 1 hour base time for trades in the same Sector (or 30min for the same zone) and half an hour more for each blue Tube or Jumpgate to be passed on the way. this adds a need to actually execute your reserved deals (or cancel them in time before the penalty for non-delivery becomes too high) but also the player can do it at almost his own pace (or is someone here who needs more than 5 hours from one end of the Universe to the other when the other end is the known destination?)

[Ketraar]

Why would you have the player reserve manual trade, think a more "traditional" approach with you having to fly to the station first, dock and then make a trade deal, where you pay up and the wares get transferred (details on the docking, deal and wares transfer tba, but lots of room for some depth). This would favour those that suggested that going back to the "first come, first serve" system of manual trading.

To avoid exploits of reservations through automated player trade ships, one could introduce cancellation fees, though this is a two way cutting blade that needs good balance and might scare off one dev or two. Sure there is an elegant solution to be found to avoid big exploits, not that the player cant exploit things anyway, as things are, I mean its a game set up for the player to exploit anyway.

Adding timings (outside of missions) will open one huge can of worms that will force players to choose between 2 play stiles. The automated trade for the ones not wanting to cope with timings (personally I hate timed stuff, even in missions) and those that trade of their personal pacing for manual trade. You can keep the discount timings and make those interesting, that will add enough urgency to get the really good deals without restricting the overall mechanic for those that just want to truck around hauling wares.

MFG

Ketraar

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

"First come, first served" in X3 is an illusion or rose-tinted-glasses at best. Only the player is able to see a satellite network and know with a high degree of certainty whether, at the point of purchase, they will be the ones that will complete a deal. No satellite network, or no jump drives, or slow ship chosen? You might not make the trade in X3...same end result in Rebirth if you've no Trade Agent network and/or recently updated station trade info.

[Killjaeden]

The important difference that would make X4 an actually good game compared to XR?

1) Egosoft not trying to breed a new game in total isolation, not discussing prerelease concerns openly, not paying attention to/ listening to experienced players.
2) there is no 2
3) there is no 3
...

42) the rest mentioned in this thread (i guess)

[Nikola515]

@Sparky Im not sure if i understand you correctly but you don't need setelite to use jump drive. As for ships you had to chose and make choices... Fast ship and not enough cargo or slow ship and enough cargo... But there was not relly need for super freighters in X3 unless you had your own complexes or supply your fleet.... Even Mercury was able to clear or fill most of stations in one trip;)

@Ketaar

What if they add trade just what we have in XR. But if it is limited to range of radar of stations or ships. Each station have it's range where it can see its trade. So if other station is too far away it cant see what it have (radio signal is too far away ). Same thing for ships... If we are in ship we can only see as good as its radar is. Radar can be upgraded but extremely expensive. Just idea

[Ketraar]

What if they add trade just what we have in XR. But if it is limited to range of radar of stations or ships. Each station have it's range where it can see its trade. So if other station is too far away it cant see what it have (radio signal is too far away ). Same thing for ships... If we are in ship we can only see as good as its radar is. Radar can be upgraded but extremely expensive. Just idea

Sure, as I said, the details of the execution can be various, in fact it can be a combination of a few. The important bit imho is to grow the existing system, and why not have a peek at the execution from the past, history often provides inspiration for the future, especially since the foundations are there already.

MFG

Ketraar

[Nikola515]

I agree... But i believe that ego should stop hiding behind closed doors and open up to public. What i have noticed from other games that if they get better results from games. Space Engineers (can't wait for planets landing ) or for example SPG2 or even 7 Days To Die. Majority of features are fan made or inspired. So anyway i think they would be able to accomplish much more than what they are doing by them self.

[Snafu_X3]

Sparky - sounds to me lke you want to re-introduce 17C trading (yaharr me lads, yo-ho!!) whereby the exact price can't be determined until you reach signalling range of the dock..

Nikola - sounds very much like the same thing as above.. as if you go around systems with no trade computer (even lowest mk) installed (eg start plot game & don't buy /any/ trade computer; IIRC all the freeplay starts give you a Mk1 as standard eqpt from the get go..)

With the lowest mk trade computer you can see /all/ deals from any station you approach close enough to ID (you don't even have to scan I-points or dock). The trade agent network you (<player>) establish allows that info to become permanently persistent regardless of range (it's not quite real-time, but it's close). If you want to /remove/ that facility I'm going to ignore this thread for a few months until the howls die down

Sure there are better ways trade mechanics could be implemented, but I don't think the above is feasible in the game as it stands (or even XR2), much as I like 17C trading ideas & logistics (& piracy)

[Graaf]

"First come, first served" in X3 is an illusion or rose-tinted-glasses at best. Only the player is able to see a satellite network and know with a high degree of certainty whether, at the point of purchase, they will be the ones that will complete a deal. No satellite network, or no jump drives, or slow ship chosen? You might not make the trade in X3...same end result in Rebirth if you've no Trade Agent network and/or recently updated station trade info.

Only the player can use the satellite network in X3, true. But on the other hand only the player NEEDS the satellite network because AI can see trade deals across the galaxy without a satellite network.

And although satellites provide info about trades in a station it doesn't provide any info about traffic in the sector unless you placed satellites all over the place. Something I do not do, to keep traveling interesting.

Lastly, the only certainty of you making the deal is because you docked first, and you do not know that until you are actually docked.


But if you are so concerned about AI trading at the same level, try playing without using the jumpdrive/afterburners/docking computer. Just like SETA, if you don't like it, don't use it.

[birdtable]

Have to agree with Killjaeden totally ...Never create a game in isolation by people who do not understand/play/enjoy the game....
Hopefully the lesson has been learnt...... Always allow the input of people who understand the technicalities of creating the simulation but who also enjoy the game........ Terran Conflict was the proof of that symbiotic relationship.

[w.evans]

Isn't feedback from a player-base to help development the reason why the DevNet system is in place?

[birdtable]

Then tell me what DevNet has achieved.....?
Have modders achieved more .... ?

[w.evans]

No idea. Wasn't around when X Rebirth was in development.

[birdtable]

Well W.E saved yourself a lot of frustration ....

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Sparky - sounds to me like you want to re-introduce 17C trading (yaharr me lads, yo-ho!!) whereby the exact price can't be determined until you reach signalling range of the dock..

Hehe, no. I was just pointing out that IMO, the suggestion that making MORT trades were somehow more challenging in X3 than Rebirth is rose-tinted glasses at best.

Even if a X3 player could see an NPC going towards the station they want to send a trader to, they can work out if they will get their first before manually ordering the purchase simply be checking the NPC speed that would almost never be 100% for it's class.

There may have been more work in X3 and it may have been enjoyable but in terms of end result, X3 MORTs and Rebirth MORTs boil down to the same thing: Almost zero risk of failing to make the sale. Potentially more in Rebirth since we rarely know of hostile force location and X3 NPCS rarely max velocity stats.

Finding ways for increasing enjoyment with Rebirth MORTs (or player trading in R2) sounds great but as an aim I do't think it should be conflated with feelings that X3 MORTs were substantially more risky trades compared to Rebirth's booking trades before departure.

@Sparky Im not sure if i understand you correctly but you don't need setelite to use jump drive.

That wasn't the impression I intended to give, sorry for unclear language.

As for ships you had to chose and make choices... Fast ship and not enough cargo or slow ship and enough cargo... But there was not relly need for super freighters in X3 unless you had your own complexes or supply your fleet.... Even Mercury was able to clear or fill most of stations in one trip;)

I'm familiar with choices aspect (thread in signature) and I've mentioned similar choices for Rebirth ships but in the context of MORTs I was referring to, once the player has made those choices, it is up to them if they will make the trade or not. Satellites let them know what the potential completion is in the target sale sector before they make their purchase. That prescience, combined with NPCs rarely maxing their velocity stats, means that in practice the risk of not making a sale is minimum. Especially since in X3 satellites show hostiles on-route and that isn't seen in Rebirth.

Only the player can use the satellite network in X3, true. But on the other hand only the player NEEDS the satellite network because AI can see trade deals across the galaxy without a satellite network.

It might equalise knowledge of trades but it doesn't equalise ability to trade - satellites are a massively one-side advantage to player trading. In X3 the NPCs will still send ships to buy or sell wares that the player is clearly going to trade fist due to them being closer in-sector. In Rebirth, that one-way level of prescience/dumbness/player-centric advantage is cut out.

And although satellites provide info about trades in a station it doesn't provide any info about traffic in the sector unless you placed satellites all over the place. Something I do not do, to keep traveling interesting.

This is your choice and if you do that (or just dock cheap M5s instead), it becomes comparable to Rebirth.

Lastly, the only certainty of you making the deal is because you docked first, and you do not know that until you are actually docked.

Only if you intentionally don't use satellite info but even then, NPCs rarely max velocity stats so it is not a level playing field. If you want that uncertainty in a Rebirth-style trade context, it has been pointed out that it is already available via not pre-ordering (but without the one-sided velocity advantage).

[w.evans]

Well W.E saved yourself a lot of frustration ....

I heard. Heh.

One thing that hasn't been taken into consideration in this thread, I think, (unless I missed it. 28 pages is a lot to wade through), is development time. I'm sure Ego can develop a game with all of the bells and whistles of X3 TC on the X:R engine, but it will likely take a long time.

Are we willing to wait 7 years? 10? It's probably going to be an awesome game, but 7 years is a VERY long time.
Are we going to tolerate such a game after that time, when the engine will again be dated?
Will we settle for an interim game released sooner, while that game is under continuing development?

I'd probably buy such an interim game, if only because no one else makes games like these and, er, install it about a year after launch.

[birdtable]

Unlike yourself W.E I (and I would assume 99% of buyers) have no awareness of what the real problems are in the development/deliverance of a totally new game engine, I just like to jump into the driving seat, press the ignition button and wooooosh .. playing the game.
I would much prefer to buy an interim game than wait another possible 2, 3 or 4 yrs for the next evolution .... problem is, at what stage did Ego realise that Rebirth was not going to fly, 6 months , 12 months after release and when to clear the decks and reinvent the next big thing.
Would be very happy to purchase a hybrid of Albion Prelude taking Litcubes Universe and filling it with XRM's weaponry/ships....... minus the bloody rocks.

[w.evans]

Unlike yourself W.E I (and I would assume 99% of buyers) have no awareness of what the real problems are in the development/deliverance of a totally new game engine

Not a programmer by profession myself, so I really have no idea either.

But assuming that the engine's done, work being done to expand it, but with the code base essentially done, it's still going to take time. There's the physical limitation of having to type code (it really does take time), testing, hunting down and quashing the inevitable bugs, look at the whole every time something is tweaked or added to make sure that the whole thing doesn't come crashing to the ground, that the economy at least can still work, not to mention making and adding more assets, then more bug hunting and quashing with every single build. I mean, modding's one thing, but we usually only have to deal with one thing at a time (unless you're BlackRain!), and although some of us like to think about balance and how it'll affect over-all gameplay (I play too, and it would suck if something I add makes the rest of the game suck), we don't have to, whereas Ego has to think of everything in the game, how everything interacts, and think about how it'll affect everyone's game. They've shown that they can, but even assuming that it's just scripting and adding assets with the occasional tweak in the source code plus time to recompile, the whole thing takes time.

Plus pressure's on because of how the release of X Rebirth was received, and the reception was well-deserved, I hear. I'm pretty sure that Ego's conscious that the next release simply CAN NOT SUCK, but that does mean more time with every feature added.

He he. Reading that, not at all sure that I'm contributing anything to this discussion. Anyway, feel free to ignore and carry on.