best M combat ship ???

[GCU Grey Area]

Cobra does struggle in these same situations as well. Even 3 Xenon Ps can melt its shielding as 2 shield generators is still very little when lots of damage starts to be thrown around. On the other hand Dragon Raider kills the Ps considerably faster due to its double gun count so usually none of the Ps can get strafe runs going on the Dragon Raider since it can move on before then.

3x P is an utterly trivial encounter for a Cobra.

If you take 3 times the hits all that extra toughness is pointless as effective toughness would be the same as Dragon Raider.

Well since I'm not taking 3x the damage (even in situations with far more enemies present than I'd even consider taking on in a Dragon Raider) strongly suspect I'm not taking 3x the hits. Just face it, Cobra is a MUCH tougher ship than the Dragon Raider.

Taking out XEN L turrets with a M ship is not a productive use of time.

Sometimes it's a lot quicker & more convenient taking out Xenon capitals with what's on hand (i.e. Cobra) rather than waiting for the fleet to arrive. First stage of that process is getting rid of the turrets, then it's safe enough to slow down, go in close & finish the job. Generally only bother calling in the fleet if there's a Xenon I present, or a station in need of demolition.

The I banks may have extra shielding, but one is generally better off swarming these with S ships or sieging them with a personally flown destroyer from outside XEN L turret range as it takes longer to kill the dozens of L turrets than to kill the I directly.

Torps help a great deal with the turret banks on an I. They have quite a wide area of effect - lob a torp at one of the turrets in the middle of a bank & they all take damage. Does not take very long at all to disarm an I if you've got a ship which can carry over 100 torps (& a launcher modified for +98% reload). Only thing I can't do to a Xenon I with my Cobra (as I presently have it configured) is cut through it's main shields. Recharge rate is just too high. Did experiment for a while with a pair of Thermal Disintegrators (i.e. bypass the shields & damage the generators directly), but they compromised Cobra's performance in other areas too much so reverted to Taus. Still find it's generally worth stripping the turrets off an I & smashing it's engines while waiting for the fleet to arrive. If nothing else it gives me something fun to do while waiting & makes it considerably easier for the fleet if their target is completely immobile & defenceless by the time they arrive.

[Raptor34]

Cobra does struggle in these same situations as well. Even 3 Xenon Ps can melt its shielding as 2 shield generators is still very little when lots of damage starts to be thrown around. On the other hand Dragon Raider kills the Ps considerably faster due to its double gun count so usually none of the Ps can get strafe runs going on the Dragon Raider since it can move on before then.

3x P is an utterly trivial encounter for a Cobra.

If you take 3 times the hits all that extra toughness is pointless as effective toughness would be the same as Dragon Raider.

Well since I'm not taking 3x the damage (even in situations with far more enemies present than I'd even consider taking on in a Dragon Raider) strongly suspect I'm not taking 3x the hits. Just face it, Cobra is a MUCH tougher ship than the Dragon Raider.

Taking out XEN L turrets with a M ship is not a productive use of time.

Sometimes it's a lot quicker & more convenient taking out Xenon capitals with what's on hand (i.e. Cobra) rather than waiting for the fleet to arrive. First stage of that process is getting rid of the turrets, then it's safe enough to slow down, go in close & finish the job. Generally only bother calling in the fleet if there's a Xenon I present, or a station in need of demolition.

The I banks may have extra shielding, but one is generally better off swarming these with S ships or sieging them with a personally flown destroyer from outside XEN L turret range as it takes longer to kill the dozens of L turrets than to kill the I directly.

Torps help a great deal with the turret banks on an I. They have quite a wide area of effect - lob a torp at one of the turrets in the middle of a bank & they all take damage. Does not take very long at all to disarm an I if you've got a ship which can carry over 100 torps (& a launcher modified for +98% reload). Only thing I can't do to a Xenon I with my Cobra (as I presently have it configured) is cut through it's main shields. Recharge rate is just too high. Did experiment for a while with a pair of Thermal Disintegrators (i.e. bypass the shields & damage the generators directly), but they compromised Cobra's performance in other areas too much so reverted to Taus. Still find it's generally worth stripping the turrets off an I & smashing it's engines while waiting for the fleet to arrive. If nothing else it gives me something fun to do while waiting & makes it considerably easier for the fleet if their target is completely immobile & defenceless by the time they arrive.

Have you considered having a Dragon with 6xThermals tagging along to melt the generators after taking out the turrets? Also considering how soft Xenon hulls are supposed to be maybe a couple Dragons with Ions to hit their shields while taking out their generators.

[GCU Grey Area]

Have you considered having a Dragon with 6xThermals tagging along to melt the generators after taking out the turrets? Also considering how soft Xenon hulls are supposed to be maybe a couple Dragons with Ions to hit their shields while taking out their generators.

Not a bad idea, however prefer not to have ships following me around. For a while I did have a Chimera with a full set of TDs docked on my Cobra for precisely that purpose. However after losing Tuatara no.2 (because it was outside on the external dock while I was fighting a K), I decided against carrying two S ships. Since I hadn't actually got to use that Chimera for melting I shield generators in all the time I'd been carrying it (they're a comparatively rare sight in my game), it was the one that got ditched. In the same time I'd used my Tuatara innumerable times (lockboxes, shooting criminals near stations, mining missions in guild chains, etc). Fighting a Xenon I is such an edge case scenario it's not really worth lugging around too much specialised equipment to do it. Easier just to pull it's teeth & wait for the fleet to arrive.

[Raptor34]

Have you considered having a Dragon with 6xThermals tagging along to melt the generators after taking out the turrets? Also considering how soft Xenon hulls are supposed to be maybe a couple Dragons with Ions to hit their shields while taking out their generators.

Not a bad idea, however prefer not to have ships following me around. For a while I did have a Chimera with a full set of TDs docked on my Cobra for precisely that purpose. However after losing Tuatara no.2 (because it was outside on the external dock while I was fighting a K), I decided against carrying two S ships. Since I hadn't actually got to use that Chimera for melting I shield generators in all the time I'd been carrying it (they're a comparatively rare sight in my game), it was the one that got ditched. In the same time I'd used my Tuatara innumerable times (lockboxes, shooting criminals near stations, mining missions in guild chains, etc). Fighting a Xenon I is such an edge case scenario it's not really worth lugging around too much specialised equipment to do it. Easier just to pull it's teeth & wait for the fleet to arrive.

Oh no, I meant creating a small rapid response fleet, just park them in the next sector over and then call them in when its defanged.
Something like say, 5 Dragons, 2 Ions, 2 Plasma, 1 TD which you swap over to. I mean if I've read the wiki right, each Mk2 M sized Ion Blaster should have equivalent dps against shields compared to destroyer main batteries. And a Dragon can slot 6 of them.
Of course that does depend on whether your fleet is already near or you need to wait like 10 minutes or something once you've killed all the turrets.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

I vote for Nemesis for sustained damage, as it's quite tanky and can win against a decent amount of firepower.

[Imperial Good]

Not a bad idea, however prefer not to have ships following me around. For a while I did have a Chimera with a full set of TDs docked on my Cobra for precisely that purpose. However after losing Tuatara no.2 (because it was outside on the external dock while I was fighting a K), I decided against carrying two S ships. Since I hadn't actually got to use that Chimera for melting I shield generators in all the time I'd been carrying it (they're a comparatively rare sight in my game), it was the one that got ditched. In the same time I'd used my Tuatara innumerable times (lockboxes, shooting criminals near stations, mining missions in guild chains, etc). Fighting a Xenon I is such an edge case scenario it's not really worth lugging around too much specialised equipment to do it. Easier just to pull it's teeth & wait for the fleet to arrive.

A single Rattlesnake and its dead in a minute or so. No need to even target any of its turrets, just focus on DPSing down the shield and then hull. Free Odysseus takes slightly longer. Gravaton turrets are short ranged so both Plasma and even Rattlesnake main batteries out range them by several kilometres. Ks die in a couple of seconds to the Rattlesnake but require a minute or so with the Odysseus.

Otherwise call in a swarm of S fighters with Blast Mortars and watch the thing melt. As shown in the videos I recall linking earlier.

This also raises the problem with the Cobra. If you want something tougher to kill L and XL then you go a Rattlesnake. Otherwise if you want something fast but still able to kill the odd S/M ship the Dragon Raider cannot be beat as it is the fastest M fight ship. If you want to take on S/M swarms then a Raptor with Pulse Laser turrets or throw in some S/M ships as distractions for your Dragon Raider.

I used the Dragon Raider quite a lot during my video series and never had many of the issues people are bringing up with it. Of course I installed exceptional mods on its chassis, engine and shields but that is kind of expected for a player ship.

I am currently using a Cobra for my other playthrough, but it really seems to be lacking in combat potential compared with the dragon raider. Maybe once I put legendary forward thrust on mk4 engines it will improve but the thing loses its shield so fast due to all the hits it takes that even 3 close formation Ps are challenging to kill without taking some hull damage. Currently its best use is to cheese boarding with it. It does make a nice bomber as well, but that is hardly dog fighting.

[GCU Grey Area]

A single Rattlesnake and its dead in a minute or so. No need to even target any of its turrets, just focus on DPSing down the shield and then hull. Free Odysseus takes slightly longer. Gravaton turrets are short ranged so both Plasma and even Rattlesnake main batteries out range them by several kilometres. Ks die in a couple of seconds to the Rattlesnake but require a minute or so with the Odysseus.

Do love my Rattlesnakes, but rarely fly any of them personally, just too slow & cumbersome. Odysseus would be even worse, not worth my time even to go & get it. Anyway just don't like taking the free ships (basic rule is if I haven't bought it or stolen it I don't use it).

Otherwise call in a swarm of S fighters with Blast Mortars and watch the thing melt. As shown in the videos I recall linking earlier.

Not using Blast Mortars at present. Apparently they're bugged & do too much damage. Might give them a go if they're ever fixed.

This also raises the problem with the Cobra. If you want something tougher to kill L and XL then you go a Rattlesnake.

Not needed for the overwhelming majority of capitals. Xenon I is the only one as far as I'm aware which has 5 XL shield generators & the corresponding recharge rate. Anything else is fair game for a Cobra. Not blown up absolutely all of them so far, however nothing apart from the Xenon I has been an issue to date.

Otherwise if you want something fast but still able to kill the odd S/M ship the Dragon Raider cannot be beat as it is the fastest M fight ship. If you want to take on S/M swarms then a Raptor with Pulse Laser turrets or throw in some S/M ships as distractions for your Dragon Raider.

Cobra's fast enough. Any ship which can exceed 1000m/s counts as bloody fast as far as I'm concerned. Got 5 drones in my Cobra, that's generally enough of a distraction for my purposes (though always tempted to fit a Lubricator mod to the chassis so I can carry more). Also got a Raptor in the fleet, but to be honest not really all that keen on it. May have a lot of guns but as a carrier it's my least favourite - lack of fast launch tubes really cripples it's ability to deploy fighters efficiently. If I wasn't playing as a Split would certainly be using one of the others (probably at least 2, given the difference in price).

I am currently using a Cobra for my other playthrough, but it really seems to be lacking in combat potential compared with the dragon raider. Maybe once I put legendary forward thrust on mk4 engines it will improve but the thing loses its shield so fast due to all the hits it takes that even 3 close formation Ps are challenging to kill without taking some hull damage. Currently its best use is to cheese boarding with it. It does make a nice bomber as well, but that is hardly dog fighting.

This is my current Cobra mod list:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9p538apbmmycj ... 1.jpg?dl=0
It's a configuration that works well for me. Wouldn't worry so much about losing shields, Cobra's got plenty of hull - you're never going to be in any serious danger from just 3 Ps. Don't even have the strongest shielding on mine. Using Split shields (aesthetic choice) with a Traction mod. Shielding's comparatively weak (compared to say Teladi units + Pavise), but it does regen fast as soon as the shooting stops. Never done any boarding with mine, just don't enjoy the X4 mechanics. Do however get a thrill out of dogfighting with it - mk3 combat thrusters with Nanotube chassis mod & a bit of extra manoeuverability from the engine mod make it sufficiently agile for me to have fun with.

[Ebany]

Cobra - Basically a buffed Gorgon Vanguard but with only half the shield strength. I love this ship the most but find the lack of shields can be an issue as only S-class craft seem effective at straff/dodging. Also have odd issues with it getting stuck to structures.

It has 2 M shield generators instead of 3 so it has 2/3 of the maximum shield.

You love the Cobra so much that you decided to take my quickly compiled response and dissect it for technical errors? I was working off the assumption the player wouldn't have max faction with multiple races, or have managed to cap the opposing sides M, hence the Cobra would have Split shielding and the Gorgon would have Paranid shielding. 2/3 only works if the player has access to both faction ships, shields, or has managed to cap a ship.

[sh1pman]

BTW, does anyone use M ships on carriers? If so, which one do you think is best? Bought myself a carrier and don’t want that 10M dock capacity go to waste. Should I fill it up with Frigates, Corvettes or Gunboats?

[GCU Grey Area]

BTW, does anyone use M ships on carriers? If so, which one do you think is best? Bought myself a carrier and don’t want that 10M dock capacity go to waste. Should I fill it up with Frigates, Corvettes or Gunboats?

Use my carrier's M ship storage mostly for freighters full of spare parts (missile components etc). Have a single frigate (Cobra) in there but it's not rigged for combat. Has 3 launchers (torp, dumbfire & tracking) & only exists so the carrier can make torps for it, which are then transferred into the carrier's own ammo store (think it holds 320). Carrier doesn't have any launchers, nor do it's fighters. However I do have one on my Cobra & like to ensure I have a readily available stockpile, just in case I ever need to reload it in a hurry. In practice I mostly tend to buy my torps (& other deployables) from wharves whenever I'm at less than a full load & flying past one, but always good to have a backup plan.

[sh1pman]

Use my carrier's M ship storage mostly for freighters full of spare parts (missile components etc). Have a single frigate (Cobra) in there but it's not rigged for combat. Has 3 launchers (torp, dumbfire & tracking) & only exists so the carrier can make torps for it, which are then transferred into the carrier's own ammo store (think it holds 320). Carrier doesn't have any launchers, nor do it's fighters. However I do have one on my Cobra & like to ensure I have a readily available stockpile, just in case I ever need to reload it in a hurry. In practice I mostly tend to buy my torps (& other deployables) from wharves whenever I'm at less than a full load & flying past one, but always good to have a backup plan.

That’s a clever use of a ship storage. However, I should’ve specified that I want to use them (or at least explore the possibility) for combat. I’m thinking gunboats with launchers and Plasma turrets, for situations where I need to take out several K’s and an I , and fighters are not enough. I have a Zeus with 40 Ares (full S pulse), they work great against groups of S and M fighters, and can even take out a solitary K, but they get overwhelmed if there’s more than 2. What do you think, will a squadron of M bombers be of any help? Or will they be the first victims in such a fight? Gunboats are very cheap, btw. Cost about the same as a heavy fighter.

[GCU Grey Area]

That’s a clever use of a ship storage. However, I should’ve specified that I want to use them (or at least explore the possibility) for combat. I’m thinking gunboats with launchers and Plasma turrets, for situations where I need to take out several K’s and an I , and fighters are not enough. I have a Zeus with 40 Ares (full S pulse), they work great against groups of S and M fighters, and can even take out a solitary K, but they get overwhelmed if there’s more than 2. What do you think, will a squadron of M bombers be of any help? Or will they be the first victims in such a fight? Gunboats are very cheap, btw. Cost about the same as a heavy fighter.

Well, mostly stuffed it full of M freighters because I couldn't think of a better use & it irked me leaving all that hanger space empty.

Bit sceptical about the use of M ships in a fleet. Mostly I use fighters to distract enemy capitals (generally around 10 per K, at least 20 for an I), while my destroyers kill them from long range. Doesn't leave much of a role for M warships, except as deck guns for my carriers & auxiliaries. Sounds like you want to use them in much the same way I use destroyers (long range artillery).

If you do try using M warships in that role would recommend installing 1 long range gun alongside the launcher(s), e.g. Boson Lance (7km) or Mass Driver (16km), so hopefully they don't go too close & get torn apart by turret fire (biggest problem with sending an M ship anywhere near a capital). Probably needs a fairly good pilot too - helps with staying at range, but also think I read somewhere that missile fire rate may be a function of Pilot skill.

As for turrets, not sure Plasma would be the best bet. If it was me would not want them going anywhere near close enough to a capital ship to ever use them. Might be better off with anti-fighter turrets instead - at least give your bombers something to defend themselves with in case they get spotted by enemy fighters.

[sh1pman]

Well, mostly stuffed it full of M freighters because I couldn't think of a better use & it irked me leaving all that hanger space empty.

Bit sceptical about the use of M ships in a fleet. Mostly I use fighters to distract enemy capitals (generally around 10 per K, at least 20 for an I), while my destroyers kill them from long range. Doesn't leave much of a role for M warships, except as deck guns for my carriers & auxiliaries. Sounds like you want to use them in much the same way I use destroyers (long range artillery).

If you do try using M warships in that role would recommend installing 1 long range gun alongside the launcher(s), e.g. Boson Lance (7km) or Mass Driver (16km), so hopefully they don't go too close & get torn apart by turret fire (biggest problem with sending an M ship anywhere near a capital). Probably needs a fairly good pilot too - helps with staying at range, but also think I read somewhere that missile fire rate may be a function of Pilot skill.

As for turrets, not sure Plasma would be the best bet. If it was me would not want them going anywhere near close enough to a capital ship to ever use them. Might be better off with anti-fighter turrets instead - at least give your bombers something to defend themselves with in case they get spotted by enemy fighters.

Yeah, I’ll try it out, see how they do. Boson Lance is out of the question, though, as it costs as much as the entire M ship, and I want them to be cost effective. Also, I doubt that their AI will make them keep their distance, even with Mass Driver and a torpedo launcher. Even destroyers sometimes forget that they have main battery and decide to give Xenon I a hug. I suspect that with M ships it will be even worse.

BTW, since I’m new to using carriers, am I right to assume that they are never good against stations? Or maybe it’s just that the Xenon stations are super-tough vs. S fighters. They don’t seem to target surface elements on a station for some reason, and as a result, get destroyed almost immediately, both in low and high attention. It seems that the only comfortable way to blow up stations is with a bunch of destroyers from a mile away.

[zakaluka]

A carrier group should be able to handle a station as long as you're giving your fighters a mixed loadout. What I mean is, don't just fit them full with bolt or pulse. I tend to go with a tough chassis that has 4 guns and go 2/2 bolt/plasma. Bolt/mortar works too or even bolt+(missiles/torps) but (1) burst output actually matters for AI pilots and (2) torps and missiles have some issues in execution.

[grapedog]

Use my carrier's M ship storage mostly for freighters full of spare parts (missile components etc). Have a single frigate (Cobra) in there but it's not rigged for combat. Has 3 launchers (torp, dumbfire & tracking) & only exists so the carrier can make torps for it, which are then transferred into the carrier's own ammo store (think it holds 320). Carrier doesn't have any launchers, nor do it's fighters. However I do have one on my Cobra & like to ensure I have a readily available stockpile, just in case I ever need to reload it in a hurry. In practice I mostly tend to buy my torps (& other deployables) from wharves whenever I'm at less than a full load & flying past one, but always good to have a backup plan.

That’s a clever use of a ship storage. However, I should’ve specified that I want to use them (or at least explore the possibility) for combat. I’m thinking gunboats with launchers and Plasma turrets, for situations where I need to take out several K’s and an I , and fighters are not enough. I have a Zeus with 40 Ares (full S pulse), they work great against groups of S and M fighters, and can even take out a solitary K, but they get overwhelmed if there’s more than 2. What do you think, will a squadron of M bombers be of any help? Or will they be the first victims in such a fight? Gunboats are very cheap, btw. Cost about the same as a heavy fighter.

The 40 ares are not the problem, the pulse weapona are. A single behemoth piloted by you, with a wing of 40 ares loaded with plasma can pretty easily squash a couple K's and an I. Hell, at least 1 K should be dead before they even get into your range. While the rattlesnake may have more firepower, its got 3km less range. You can start banging away with a behemoth at 10k. Then just focus fire each K one at a time with your fleet and you backing it up laying in the big hits. Them smash the I... lastly, hsve a few M's who follow your destroyer. Use the M's as the defense group against S/M attacks on your destroyer. I prefer nemesis M's myself, but you could also go frigates like cobras or gorgons or cerberus with all the extra turrets, they'll shred hordes of s/m ships, especially with your own desteoyer turrets chipping in dmg.

[Warnoise]

M ships are a waste of money in the hands of the AI, They get swarmed too quickly and sometimes their AI goes derp mode and they started rotating in the spot. Dont let me start about M ships vs capital ships....

Get yourself S ships, those are better than M ships in every shape and form and on top of that they are about 2 times cheaper. Egosoft should build an AI for M ships (a modified version of S ships AI).

[Raptor34]

M ships are a waste of money in the hands of the AI, They get swarmed too quickly and sometimes their AI goes derp mode and they started rotating in the spot. Dont let me start about M ships vs capital ships....

Get yourself S ships, those are better than M ships in every shape and form and on top of that they are about 2 times cheaper. Egosoft should build an AI for M ships (a modified version of S ships AI).

What is the current AI for Ms like anyway?
I'm thinking that for M class ships, that rather than going in and then bouncing back out, perhaps they push right through, that will give their turrets time to attack too. Kinda like hit and runs? Most Ms have good speed, but are not that agile after all.

[Super Knuckles]

Just wanted to show some appreciation to Egosoft for finally making such a variety of ships we can argue about which we find to be the best one! Whereas in previous games we usually had one overpowered ship meant to be the player’s.

P.S. My choice is Dragon Raider

[MSterling]

I am currently using a Cobra for my other playthrough, but it really seems to be lacking in combat potential compared with the dragon raider.

So you are complaining that your fantasy foodball league player Kevin Keegan isn't as good as when you played Pele...

When you compare against possibly the best S/M combat ship, by definition, everything else comes up short. The Cobra is pretty close, it is faster than the base Dragon, the raider is an NPC variant that is frankly OP, but the Cobra has a docking bay, so you can have two small ships, one in the bay, on on the pad. Split ships don't turn well (apart from the Asp), so against Ns especially, ALL big ships and pretty much anything other than burst laser equipped ships find it hard to take them down because you can't track them with your guns and the bullets just keep missing. So you can plop a Nova or Falcon on there and give them dual burst lasers, and use them for Ns and sniping subsystems while you let the AI keep the cobra safe.

[MSterling]

Yeah, I’ll try it out, see how they do. Boson Lance is out of the question, though, as it costs as much as the entire M ship, and I want them to be cost effective.

Doesn't matter if it is cheap if you can't use them. If the ship with a Boson Lance works, and with another gun it doesn't, then the money is high for the former, but wasted for the latter.

Also, I doubt that their AI will make them keep their distance,

Well the AI never will manage to do that as long as you never try. You miss every shot you don't take.