Capital ship beam weapon

[GCU Grey Area]

Beams are, bluntly put, no good in their present state. They seem like the worst of both worlds when it comes to weapons.

Beams combine the short usage times (high heat generation) and high cost of heavy hitting weapons with DPS that's so low that they make pulse lasers look like god tier weapons in comparison.

As main weapons they overheat within seconds while putting out very low quantities of damage, and as turrets their max (ie L size turret) DPS of 88 MJ makes them great at engaging absolutely no enemies whatsoever with some of the lowest ranges around for good measure.

I know that the devs feel comfortable with weapons as they are now, but beams are a rather egregious example of a weapons that's so bad it really does need to change.

Suggestion

It's pretty apparent that beams getting high damage that's commensurate to their price and heat generation, without something to limit their use against lighter ships, would make them OP against fighters. Therefore, I would like to propose that they be given much higher damage alongside a charge up time requirement similar to railguns, to make them into short ranged heavy weapons that can find a niche as an alternative to plasmas.

Beam turrets may be a bit underpowered, however the fixed Beams on M ships work fine as they are. Very fond of them - vital component of my favourite 2-gun M ship loadout: Beam + Shard. Beam for long range precision, Shard for short range punch. The 2 weapons work well together (assuming sensible weapon grouping), providing a highly versatile combination.

As for cooling, you can do something about that. Even the basic Mistral cooling mod makes a significant difference. Have one installed on my Minotaur Raider's Beam to get +30% cooling, -31% damage, +25% reload. Even with the reduced damage compared to standard stats it has proved an effective weapon - so much so that even though I do have higher tier mods available I've never quite got round to upgrading it.

As for your suggestion of adding a charge time to Beams (specifically to make them useless against fighters), would hate that myself. Main reason I equip one is precisely because they're effective against fast moving & evasive S ships (while Shard is primarily for M targets). Adding a mechanism to make Beams useless for that purpose would render the weapon useless for me. Would not be happy if that happened.

[chew-ie]

Beams are, bluntly put, no good in their present state. They seem like the worst of both worlds when it comes to weapons.

Beams combine the short usage times (high heat generation) and high cost of heavy hitting weapons with DPS that's so low that they make pulse lasers look like god tier weapons in comparison.

As main weapons they overheat within seconds while putting out very low quantities of damage, and as turrets their max (ie L size turret) DPS of 88 MJ makes them great at engaging absolutely no enemies whatsoever with some of the lowest ranges around for good measure.

I know that the devs feel comfortable with weapons as they are now, but beams are a rather egregious example of a weapons that's so bad it really does need to change.

Suggestion

It's pretty apparent that beams getting high damage that's commensurate to their price and heat generation, without something to limit their use against lighter ships, would make them OP against fighters. Therefore, I would like to propose that they be given much higher damage alongside a charge up time requirement similar to railguns, to make them into short ranged heavy weapons that can find a niche as an alternative to plasmas.

Beam turrets may be a bit underpowered, however the fixed Beams on M ships work fine as they are. Very fond of them - vital component of my favourite 2-gun M ship loadout: Beam + Shard. Beam for long range precision, Shard for short range punch. The 2 weapons work well together (assuming sensible weapon grouping), providing a highly versatile combination.

As for cooling, you can do something about that. Even the basic Mistral cooling mod makes a significant difference. Have one installed on my Minotaur Raider's Beam to get +30% cooling, -31% damage, +25% reload. Even with the reduced damage compared to standard stats it has proved an effective weapon - so much so that even though I do have higher tier mods available I've never quite got round to upgrading it.

As for your suggestion of adding a charge time to Beams (specifically to make them useless against fighters), would hate that myself. Main reason I equip one is precisely because they're effective against fast moving & evasive S ships (while Shard is primarily for M targets). Adding a mechanism to make Beams useless for that purpose would render the weapon useless for me. Would not be happy if that happened.

Interesting seeing someone using shard guns - did those get a tweak as well? As for M lasers - I really have too look into the mods again, too...

[GCU Grey Area]

Interesting seeing someone using shard guns - did those get a tweak as well?

Don't think so, at least no tweaks I'm aware of. Shard is just a weapon I've enjoyed using right from the start. Exceptionally high projectile speed & does a ton of damage when the ship you're shooting at is close enough to be hit by the entire blast. Downsides are the spread (much of it's impact is lost beyond about 2km) & a tendency to overheat like crazy. Shard on my Minotaur can fire precisely 9 shots before it overheats & it fires them bloody fast (Slayer mod: +28% damage, -12% cooling, +96% reload), so really needs to be paired with a second gun for use at longer ranges, or while waiting for Shard to cool down. Find Beam with a cooling mod complements it really well.

[Warnoise]

Beams are, bluntly put, no good in their present state. They seem like the worst of both worlds when it comes to weapons.

Beams combine the short usage times (high heat generation) and high cost of heavy hitting weapons with DPS that's so low that they make pulse lasers look like god tier weapons in comparison.

As main weapons they overheat within seconds while putting out very low quantities of damage, and as turrets their max (ie L size turret) DPS of 88 MJ makes them great at engaging absolutely no enemies whatsoever with some of the lowest ranges around for good measure.

I know that the devs feel comfortable with weapons as they are now, but beams are a rather egregious example of a weapons that's so bad it really does need to change.

Suggestion

It's pretty apparent that beams getting high damage that's commensurate to their price and heat generation, without something to limit their use against lighter ships, would make them OP against fighters. Therefore, I would like to propose that they be given much higher damage alongside a charge up time requirement similar to railguns, to make them into short ranged heavy weapons that can find a niche as an alternative to plasmas.

Beam turrets may be a bit underpowered, however the fixed Beams on M ships work fine as they are. Very fond of them - vital component of my favourite 2-gun M ship loadout: Beam + Shard. Beam for long range precision, Shard for short range punch. The 2 weapons work well together (assuming sensible weapon grouping), providing a highly versatile combination.

As for cooling, you can do something about that. Even the basic Mistral cooling mod makes a significant difference. Have one installed on my Minotaur Raider's Beam to get +30% cooling, -31% damage, +25% reload. Even with the reduced damage compared to standard stats it has proved an effective weapon - so much so that even though I do have higher tier mods available I've never quite got round to upgrading it.

As for your suggestion of adding a charge time to Beams (specifically to make them useless against fighters), would hate that myself. Main reason I equip one is precisely because they're effective against fast moving & evasive S ships (while Shard is primarily for M targets). Adding a mechanism to make Beams useless for that purpose would render the weapon useless for me. Would not be happy if that happened.

Interesting seeing someone using shard guns - did those get a tweak as well? As for M lasers - I really have too look into the mods again, too...

Shard is a crap weapon. Some people maybe use it just for fun. But in terms of functionality, you have many other better choices.

[GCU Grey Area]

Shard is a crap weapon. Some people maybe use it just for fun. But in terms of functionality, you have many other better choices.

Crap weapon? If you truly think that you were using it wrong. Damage output isn't far behind Plasma, yet has accuracy (i.e. projectile speed) superior to Pulse. You do however need to use it the correct way. If you start shooting as soon as a target is in nominal effective range you waste a lot of it's power due to shot spread & weapon probably overheats before it has had a chance to be used effectively (suspect this is why you dislike it). With a little patience however (i.e. wait a second or two) until your target is slightly closer & it's devastating: roughly 2x Bolt damage, 3x Pulse damage & more accurate than both. I don't use it "just for fun", I use it because it's effective & get better results with it than the alternatives - Pulse is reasonably accurate but low damage; Bolt's projectile speed & damage are mediocre at best; Plasma's speed is truly awful, even if damage is decent.

[cool_lad]

Shard is a crap weapon. Some people maybe use it just for fun. But in terms of functionality, you have many other better choices.

Crap weapon? If you truly think that you were using it wrong. Damage output isn't far behind Plasma, yet has accuracy (i.e. projectile speed) superior to Pulse. You do however need to use it the correct way. If you start shooting as soon as a target is in nominal effective range you waste a lot of it's power due to shot spread & weapon probably overheats before it has had a chance to be used effectively (suspect this is why you dislike it). With a little patience however (i.e. wait a second or two) until your target is slightly closer & it's devastating: roughly 2x Bolt damage, 3x Pulse damage & more accurate than both. I don't use it "just for fun", I use it because it's effective & get better results with it than the alternatives - Pulse is reasonably accurate but low damage; Bolt's projectile speed & damage are mediocre at best; Plasma's speed is truly awful, even if damage is decent.

The damage output of beams is well below that of pulse lasers; and the output on turrets is less bad more completely and utterly useless; effectively falling as it does into the single digits.

Not to mention that pulse lasers come with less heat generation, more range and more damage to boot.

[Alan Phipps]

Are you sure that some of you are not arguing a bit more about your combat playstyles now (and getting away from the beam weapons topic) and not so much about inherent weapon game balance?

In the end I would suppose that AI combat and OOS combat are the only real tests of balance since different players will usually find ways to take advantage of weapon type positives and ways to mitigate their negatives. Then of course there are weapon and turret mods that could skew or blur the results anyway.

[mr.WHO]

I think one of the issue with beams is that they don't have their niche.
Pulse and Bolt already are primary point defence.
Shard is close range shotgun.
Then you have flaks.
Also 3.0 will add those blue short duration beams (dunno their name).


I see beams in following way:
L-turrets - long range and precision but lower dammage
M-turrets - long range and precision but lower dammage (main purpose would be anti-missile, than anti-anything else)
Fighter mount - more dammage toward surface elements (you melt them)?

[chew-ie]

I think one of the issue with beams is that they don't have their niche.

[..]

M-turrets - long range and precision but lower dammage (main purpose would be anti-missile, than anti-anything else)

They'd make excellent missile defense (which we need badly)

[ZombiePotatoSalad]

Since the game was stated to have a more tactical slant, this could be part of it. Capital ships are best used against other capital ships and stations, which would make sense for them having large, powerful, slow-firing main guns. Every other hardpoint is for point-defense.

[Warnoise]

Shard is a crap weapon. Some people maybe use it just for fun. But in terms of functionality, you have many other better choices.

Crap weapon? If you truly think that you were using it wrong. Damage output isn't far behind Plasma, yet has accuracy (i.e. projectile speed) superior to Pulse. You do however need to use it the correct way. If you start shooting as soon as a target is in nominal effective range you waste a lot of it's power due to shot spread & weapon probably overheats before it has had a chance to be used effectively (suspect this is why you dislike it). With a little patience however (i.e. wait a second or two) until your target is slightly closer & it's devastating: roughly 2x Bolt damage, 3x Pulse damage & more accurate than both. I don't use it "just for fun", I use it because it's effective & get better results with it than the alternatives - Pulse is reasonably accurate but low damage; Bolt's projectile speed & damage are mediocre at best; Plasma's speed is truly awful, even if damage is decent.

By the time shard starts firing, the equipped ship already lost its shield from incoming fire. I tested many time and found its just damage and accuracy doesn't make up for its lack of range. However, OOS the shard is good because of its numebers.

[GCU Grey Area]

By the time shard starts firing, the equipped ship already lost its shield from incoming fire.

Not my experience at all - would never use Shard if that was the case. It's only a matter of seconds (closing speed's generally on the order of 7-800m/s), simply not enough time for incoming fire to do that much damage due to difference in range. Shields may take a slight hit before I can fire back, but certainly nowhere near losing them. However, this discussion's off topic so last I'll say on the matter.

Since the game was stated to have a more tactical slant, this could be part of it. Capital ships are best used against other capital ships and stations, which would make sense for them having large, powerful, slow-firing main guns. Every other hardpoint is for point-defense.

Tend to agree. 3.0b also recently increased base range of destroyer main guns to 10km (over 14km with the Expediter mods my Behemoths are currently using). Definitely seems to be intended for long range bombardment tactics. M turrets are effectively useless against a destroyer's primary target at such ranges so best equipped for anti-fighter roles.

[dholmstr]

Like Alan said, it looks like many talk about combat playstyle rather than beams themself. A small deja vu from a discussioin pre 2.5/2.6 patches. One player argue about the status quo jsut perfect for them, another wants to change that suits their playstyle.

Anyways, I'm on the same page as m.WHO as to what beams could be. While plasma still would be that big blob of massive damage, it is really poor accuracy. Mainly for station bashing and big ships without engines. Maybe Beams (all beams) could be really good at taking out surfaces elements with a inbuild extra damage bonus towards that. There is allready a mod (ingame 3.0) to for that to reaaaally push damage on those. Just add abit more HP on surface elements and it would balance out and give beams a niche function. A big plasma hit straight on a turret would still be more damage, but you prolly never hit it (except stationary target). Problem with this is how the AI work and how ships spin around like mad, making own turret miss more EVEN while shooting at something standing still.

M-beamturrets give them a bit more range with extremly high accuray, the damage don't need to change. They are THE missile defence we need. So while they would hit S-ships 99% of the time a heavy fighter would just laugh at it. A scout would not want to be there for long.

Then the L-turret Pulse could become an all around turret. Moderate damage and moderate accuray, to shoot everything from small to big. Good at dealing with M ships. L-plasma the big daddy, good at just raw brutal facepunching.