XR vs X4

[Ketraar]

Some time ago I have actually started to write a somewhat lengthy post about trade concept in Rebirth, I might push to fish writing it (procrastinating ftw.). As I think that Trade is THE core concept in any X game. Even if you are more inclined to FIGHT you wont be able to do so without getting past TRADE. So its incorrect to say that TRADE is secondary, ever.

MFG

Ketraar

[BigBANGtheory]

Ah but it's not black and white like that Trade is important and a core feature yes completely agree. The question or proposition is whether it is of atleast equal importance to the majority of owners at this point in time.

I don't think it is anymore, I think it used to be but things have moved on, player aspirations have changed. Would it not make sense to find out, or is it a case of "if you are afraid of the answer then don't ask the question"?

Maybe I am wrong I dont think so though

[UniTrader]

@graaf

Technically a trade system like in X3 is no problem (no reservations, you buy the ware available at the current station) BUT if you actually do it this way you have a BIG disadvantage against the ships who use reservations because the big deal you just discovered may be taken when you arrive by a ship which arrives 20 minutes later.

This, they wont work together. And having the ability to pilot transports but only work with reservations is called TRANSPORT, not TRADE.

well, you still do Trades, although you do them before Transporting the Wares. Also a Reservation-Based Trading System does not exclude that the Player himself can do it, you have to solve it a bit diffrent from X3 though: (assuming an M Size Transporter here as Playership which loads and unloads instantly when docked)
A) Either the direct approach without Reservations like in X3 where you just exchange wares when docked for the current Price
B) Reservation based Trading: you can reserve as many Wares as you want/have money for (preferably at the Places you visit anyway), although they will expire after some time - if you are late to pick up your Wares you have to pay a bit more on arrival to get your Wares or just get a part of your pre-paid money back (as contract penalty for being late or not picking up the wares at all).
You can also use this like the classic way, but do your Trades while you are currenty flying to the Station/docking (Reserved Trades with a Station are auto-executed on Docking)
similiar for Selling, although you have to pay a small "security fee" to a 3rd party which you will get back on a timely delivery. (or parts of it in case you are late)

or alternatively, if you dont like reservations at all - just mod them out from what i have seen the Scripts are written in such a way that they would work without the reservations, but as in X3, the Ships will often fly empty if someone else got the deal first. and possibly waste jump fuel this way.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

How on earth would anyone know what "the majority" thinks.

We don't. But we do know that the majority of the people who purchased Rebirth do not play it. 377 last month vs 14664 on release. Or do you prefer 92479 actual purchases? The majority are the 98.7% NOT playing Rebirth after purchase.
True, not as fascinating as a working lightsaber, but I also like numbers...and statistics...

However, you are misrepresenting those statistics. Peak statistics tell you only that, they take no account of time zones or whether more people play in the hours after a digital release than at other points in time or not.

I'm sure Rebirth usage has declined but it's not clear how you have estimated 98.7%.

[Ketraar]

The question or proposition is whether it is of atleast equal importance to the majority of owners at this point in time.

I understand what you are saying, but you are looking it the wrong way. Even if I can see how "most" players would put more importance to say FIGHT, they would have to go through TRADE inevitably. So yes TRADE may be less preferred playstyle but its a fundamental core concept. It is so fundamental that you cant fight without trade AT ALL. Every missile you fire has to be made, every ship you destroy has to be built and resources to build them have to be made and mined, etc. I could, on the other hand, go about TRADE not firing a single shot (which I do/did mostly anyway).

So yes people may prefer to fight, but they will hate FIGHT if TRADE sucks, hence why I think focussing in a working "economy" in the universe is the key to a good X, even if you just want some pew pew.

MFG

Ketraar

[vkerinav]

What might provide a sense of urgency for player-piloted freighters under the current system is a timed discount; when you line up a trade, you'd be given a time frame in which to make the delivery. The earlier you arrive, the larger a discount you receive. The tighter the limit, the bigger the discount. If you're late, you take a penalty instead. If you fail to deliver in a certain time, the other party keeps 10% of the total sale/purchase cost, and you get a rep hit.

Distance shouldn't be a factor in this time limit--that's the player's concern(we already see the distance in systems/sectors). Instead, base it on how long until production stalls if that ware isn't bought/sold, and how much you're offering to move.

Of course, we should also have an interface that allows for quick changes in which ship carries out a trade, just in case you want to send a faster, AI-controlled ship to get in under that time limit.

[birdtable]

I am so pleased that BigBANGtheory has decided he speaks for the majority, I do not remember voting him this authority, maybe he placed it upon his shoulders one day when he found it lying discarded.
Only speak for your opinions and never assume you have the mantle of player requirements ... Makes for a more balanced opinion of the game.
My preference and mine alone is THINK BUILD EXPAND.... The expansion comes with requirement of Trade and Conquest/Defence.

[Graaf]

How on earth would anyone know what "the majority" thinks.

We don't. But we do know that the majority of the people who purchased Rebirth do not play it. 377 last month vs 14664 on release. Or do you prefer 92479 actual purchases? The majority are the 98.7% NOT playing Rebirth after purchase.
True, not as fascinating as a working lightsaber, but I also like numbers...and statistics...

However, you are misrepresenting those statistics. Peak statistics tell you only that, they take no account of time zones or whether more people play in the hours after a digital release than at other points in time or not.

I'm sure Rebirth usage has declined but it's not clear how you have estimated 98.7%.

If I hadn't included those "missing" people I would have said 99.6%.

And if you want to be the math tutor that wants the full formula:
Peak players at launch (14664) divided by total owners at launch ((47653) = 30.77% differential.
Peak players in the last month (377) divided by differential (30.77%) = 1225 actual players
Actual players (1225) divided by total owners (92479) = 1.3% playing = 98.7% not playing.
And that is with using the most favorable numbers for Rebirth. I could have used the 280 from the last 24hr peak. Or 211 currently playing. Or 140 playing when I posted.


PS: If you want to point out that those 47653 is listed a day late, do know that a lower amount of owners at launch will give a higher differential which lower actual players and people playing. Yes, I'm still calculating all this in Rebirths favor.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

And if you want to be the math tutor that wants the full formula:
Peak players at launch (14664) divided by total owners at launch ((47653) = 30.77% differential.
Peak players in the last month (377) divided by differential (30.77%) = 1225 actual players
Actual players (1225) divided by total owners (92479) = 1.3% playing = 98.7% not playing.
And that is with using the most favorable numbers for Rebirth. I could have used the 280 from the last 24hr peak. Or 211 currently playing. Or 140 playing when I posted.

Math tutor, funny.

Thanks for the info, I imagined you were assuming peak player fraction at launch would be the same as would be at whatever time of the day the 377 corresponds to...

[BigBANGtheory]

I am so pleased that BigBANGtheory has decided he speaks for the majority, I do not remember voting him this authority, maybe he placed it upon his shoulders one day when he found it lying discarded.
Only speak for your opinions and never assume you have the mantle of player requirements ... Makes for a more balanced opinion of the game.
My preference and mine alone is THINK BUILD EXPAND.... The expansion comes with requirement of Trade and Conquest/Defence.

It was in the small print, you know that little checkbox people keep forgetting to tick

Consider it a supposition a belief in the absence of hard facts, my point really though is to assume nothing rather more shouldn't we find out lets test it. What does the disengaged player really think?

[birdtable]

I do not think there are any disengaged players left on the Rebirth forum, I should imagine only the very engaged remain waiting for a glimmer of light to appear at the end of the tunnel .. apt really considering the title of Rebirth.
Myself like others have opinions but hope they do not influence Egosoft too much for as I have said before if Ego do not know by now what they got wrong or right then the future is grim.
All I ask is that the simulation works as it should .... could you imagine Rebirth working fully at launch ... One would have thought that David Lynch was on the Ego board of directors..... A surreal experience it would have been...aged grannies offering pleasures in exchange for trade.
I think an Albion Prelude 2 is likely before Rebirth 2 ... plus in my opinion I do not think Rebirth will be anywhere in the title.

[gbjbaanb]

Ah but it's not black and white like that Trade is important and a core feature yes completely agree. The question or proposition is whether it is of atleast equal importance to the majority of owners at this point in time.

I don't think it is anymore, I think it used to be but things have moved on, player aspirations have changed. Would it not make sense to find out, or is it a case of "if you are afraid of the answer then don't ask the question"?

Maybe I am wrong I dont think so though

You're wrong. The real reason THINK FIGHT TRADE BUILD are all of equal importance is that different players play the game for different reasons and styles. I may prefer BUILD, you may prefer FIGHT, someone else may prefer TRADE. ES has to put as much effort into each of these in order to keep us all satisfied.

Never think that one of these 4 is of lesser importance just because its of lesser importance to you.

[Nikola515]

If I hadn't included those "missing" people I would have said 99.6%.

And if you want to be the math tutor that wants the full formula:
Peak players at launch (14664) divided by total owners at launch ((47653) = 30.77% differential.
Peak players in the last month (377) divided by differential (30.77%) = 1225 actual players
Actual players (1225) divided by total owners (92479) = 1.3% playing = 98.7% not playing.
And that is with using the most favorable numbers for Rebirth. I could have used the 280 from the last 24hr peak. Or 211 currently playing. Or 140 playing when I posted.


PS: If you want to point out that those 47653 is listed a day late, do know that a lower amount of owners at launch will give a higher differential which lower actual players and people playing. Yes, I'm still calculating all this in Rebirths favor.

What i want to know how fast those numbers wore droping down after release. I remember second week after it was out it only had litle over 700 players playing it (online ). I have to agree with you here majority people think this game sucks and including me. I put over 1000h on it just for testing(economy & empire building ) so i could help them fix it but it didn't make much difference. So i give up on it too. I hope for X4 and if we get XR2 im not even going to bother with it...

[BigBANGtheory]

Ah but it's not black and white like that Trade is important and a core feature yes completely agree. The question or proposition is whether it is of atleast equal importance to the majority of owners at this point in time.

I don't think it is anymore, I think it used to be but things have moved on, player aspirations have changed. Would it not make sense to find out, or is it a case of "if you are afraid of the answer then don't ask the question"?

Maybe I am wrong I dont think so though

You're wrong. The real reason THINK FIGHT TRADE BUILD are all of equal importance is that different players play the game for different reasons and styles. I may prefer BUILD, you may prefer FIGHT, someone else may prefer TRADE. ES has to put as much effort into each of these in order to keep us all satisfied.

Never think that one of these 4 is of lesser importance just because its of lesser importance to you.

How do you know its just me, how do any of us know... that is you making assumptions now.

[Graaf]

Cant you tell from the provided links?

Early December 2013 peaked at 2526, with 58173 copies sold.
Early January 2014 peaked at 1158, with 68551 copies sold.
Differential stays the same.

Summary: after 2 weeks 14.1% still playing, after 6 week 5.5%


The only increases are related to patch 2.0, 2.5, 3.0 and a free weekend (accompanied by patch 3.5).
V2.0 almost tripled player numbers compared to the previous month, only to loose almost half in the following month.
V2.5 although not even doubled can be caused due to the end of the month launch.
V3.0 barely doubled it
The free weekend more then tripled it, and lost almost all of it the next month.

Since the free weekend in March 2015 was the most recent and most patched version of Rebirth and had almost as much people playing as December 2013, you do have to wonder why almost no-one bought the game during or after the weekend if it is such a good game? Even if you compare the previous/following months March 2015 has the worst statistic.

[Ketraar]

Here we go again, ruining perfectly good discussion about the game and its (possible) future, with pointless debate about player stats, well done.

MFG

Ketraar

[Santi]

well, you still do Trades, although you do them before Transporting the Wares. Also a Reservation-Based Trading System does not exclude that the Player himself can do it, you have to solve it a bit diffrent from X3 though: (assuming an M Size Transporter here as Playership which loads and unloads instantly when docked)

A) Either the direct approach without Reservations like in X3 where you just exchange wares when docked for the current Price

B) Reservation based Trading: you can reserve as many Wares as you want/have money for (preferably at the Places you visit anyway), although they will expire after some time - if you are late to pick up your Wares you have to pay a bit more on arrival to get your Wares or just get a part of your pre-paid money back (as contract penalty for being late or not picking up the wares at all).
You can also use this like the classic way, but do your Trades while you are currenty flying to the Station/docking (Reserved Trades with a Station are auto-executed on Docking)
similiar for Selling, although you have to pay a small "security fee" to a 3rd party which you will get back on a timely delivery. (or parts of it in case you are late)

or alternatively, if you dont like reservations at all - just mod them out from what i have seen the Scripts are written in such a way that they would work without the reservations, but as in X3, the Ships will often fly empty if someone else got the deal first. and possibly waste jump fuel this way.

Option B sounds good to me regarding Trading with the player ship, but with the trade agents (satellites, or whatever) functionality to update trades as well, so you either go around using the trade computer to gather deals that will expire or you build a trade network that will update prices permanently,

Option A could be very frustrating if there is not a very quick way (jumpdrive or similar) to travel between stations, I rather have a time limitation with some bonuses or penalties build into it.

[Graaf]

Here we go again, ruining perfectly good discussion about the game and its (possible) future, with pointless debate about player stats, well done.

MFG

Ketraar

You wanted to know who the majority were.

[Ketraar]

You wanted to know who the majority were.

Erm no I did not. In fact I clearly stated "no one knows", which indicates I was stating it, not asking. On top of things you replied, "we dont know", which kinda said it all about that.

Option A could be very frustrating if there is not a very quick way (jumpdrive or similar) to travel between stations, I rather have a time limitation with some bonuses or penalties build into it.

I think its much simpler than that. You have the current system where remote controlled trade ships reserve wares, both player and NPC ships. These wares get removed from the storage and are gone from inventory, these are no longer available for manual trade.

As for the timed trade runs as suggested previously I'd leave those for the generic trade missions. No point in adding timing mechanics to the "open world" which would imo overcomplicate things for some. I feel there is much more need for Logistics than anything else. The ability to move wares around using a CLS like system and warehouse type station so I could create a bridge between systems, that would basically allow trading of wares from the whole galaxy. This would provide more gameplay without the need to add too much complexity to managers.

As I mentioned before this is part of a lager concept, but this bit alone would drastically improve economics in the game, making things more flexible, as stiffness is indeed my biggest issue with it.

MFG

Ketraar

[Nikola515]

Here we go again, ruining perfectly good discussion about the game and its (possible) future, with pointless debate about player stats, well done.

MFG

Ketraar

Actually Ketraar he has pretty good point here... It is important to understand it is not what me and you think but what majority thinks. Something what i like don't mean that you will or majority of other players (like my first come first serve economy ). Also he proved point to those that think that XR best game and everything works as it should. This might be true or not but fact is that people didn't like it and numbers shows. I just hope devs see this and don't make same mess like XR.