XR vs X4

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

What does everyone else think about this ?

Not really a good idea in my opinion. NPCs manage to take player's deal anyway - even without ability to reserve wares. And I think that sending ships to purchase something, just to find out that they sold everything before you came there, is pretty stupid because even now in 2015, we already reserve wares remotely and THEN we recieve them

IMO maybe for players who are solely trade-only dedicated and are using just a single freighter, it's a nice challange.
...But for builders like me, who remotely command several freighters and have managers with freighters that supply stations, it's a meaningless and tedious burden to take care of, and it wouldn't even add anything positive/enjoyable to the game.

[GCU Grey Area]

What does everyone else think about this ?

Dislike the idea & definitely prefer the current trade system. Enjoy planning long multi-stage trade runs & focusing on trying to make them as efficient as possible, minimising journey times & jump fuel usage for each ship. Also the present trade system makes it possible to orchestrate the trading activities of a much larger fleet of MORTs than was practical in the old games.

[Nikola515]

That is true but it is just too easy now. This would create more competition between NPC and player;) Another thing if they add extra opinion easy economy what XR have now and hard where there is no pre ordering. Of course AI needs to be capable of doing all that

[BigBANGtheory]

Don't you already get a time to live on the trade deals to facilitate a first come first served type scenario?

I would have thought somekind of trade deal based on volume and repeat custom makes sense to deepen the trade gameplay which in itself is quite a niche part of the game.

[GCU Grey Area]

That is true but it is just too easy now.

Plenty of ways the current system can be made significantly harder if that is desired:
1. Don't queue up multiple trades, just do it 1 trade at a time.
2. Don't recruit trade agents, meaning you have to be physically present to get up to date trade info from NPC stations.
3. Don't make any trade deals until a freighter has arrived in the same zone as the station - that would reintroduce the racing for trades style gameplay, risk losing out to NPCs who may take up trade offers before the player's freighter arrives & emphasise the importance of faster freighters.
4. Don't use the main trade interface - only access trade offers from within station details so you're unaware how the prices & quantities compare to other stations buying or selling the same wares.
5. Don't use smalltalk to negotiate discounts.
6. Don't scan station info nodes so data on production cycles, resource stocks, etc, is unavailable, indeed wherever possible avoid going anywhere near station info nodes in case one offers a lucrative commission.

[Graaf]

What does everyone else think about this ?

I'm with you on this. And we need it if we are going to fly transports in the future. The current system only works due to the single ship limitation.

[Nikola515]

@GCU

I don't think you see my point.... What i was saying is to give trading ships more purpose in game. Now ship speed don't actually matter much..... Ship with best cargo is always best choice becuse when manager makes order all items are stored to temporary cargo until ship arive(there is no chance of losing cargo becuse it didn't get there at time). So we would need to balance or take risk to supply our stations. I could do what you told me too but i would be missing on some features

@Bigbang

You are corect it does but ships should have some importance too. If ship dont arive on time order should expire or something like that(depends on reputation ). Just idea;)
Also i was thinking about volume trade and i personally think that they should make missions where station need 100k refined metals and you can assign your station or personally deliver by manual trading. Same thing if you need refined metals you post contract and NPC can take job and supply you for large quantities.... (just idea)

[Santi]

That will wreak havoc with the economy, lets remember that "first come, first serve" was the product of having to dock at a station to buy/sell wares, and not having a Universe wide economy that works mostly to the rules of supply and demand.

Imagine all Managers from all stations sending all their ships to buy e-cells to the same station, because it has the cheapest ones, then all minus the one that got the e-cells, fly to the second cheapest station and so on.

Offers already change too quickly in the Trade menu and is hard enough sometimes to find good deals, we pay up front too, so you expect the wares to be there when your ship arrives.
Ship speed already plays a huge part, see how many trips your Rahanas can do, compared to a Titurel, same for ship size, high tech expensive goods are best traded with ships like a Lepton, while for bulk or energy you want the biggest ship you can find as the margins are quite small.

[GCU Grey Area]

@GCU

I don't think you see my point.... What i was saying is to give trading ships more purpose in game. Now ship speed don't actually matter much..... Ship with best cargo is always best choice becuse when manager makes order all items are stored to temporary cargo until ship arive(there is no chance of losing cargo becuse it didn't get there at time). So we would need to balance or take risk to supply our stations. I could do what you told me too but i would be missing on some features

Disagree on ship speed being unimportant. For example, I'd never send out a Lyramekron to do a job a Lepton could handle, particularly if it involves any gate travel or stations which are positioned a long way from jump beacons. Travel time is a much more significant factor in XR (since space is no longer compressed so every sector is only 1 jump away from all the others). Faster ship = more trade runs in a given amount of time = more profit. Find myself thinking much more carefully about the optimal balance of speed & capacity when selecting a ship for a specific task than I ever did in X3 (where I pretty much just used Caiman Haulers for everything, or Demeter Haulers if I was at war with the Split).

[gbjbaanb]

Isn't this trade concept the way trade worked in X3? You didn't need to dock but bought where supply was highest and sold where demand was greatest. Simple! Worked quite well I thought.

It does make trade more interesting if you don't know what the prices are in a remote place, which is pretty much the way it should be. Setting up a trade system where you pre-book your goods for a set price, take your time to collect and then sell at a pre-booked price elsewhere is just so dull.

[Nikola515]

@Santi

That's why they need to build new AI from scratch... This AI that we have right now cant run stations eeffectively in XR let alone something complex like this

@GCU

I agree with you there..... But pretty much using ship with more cargo it better no matter how you see it. When boosting they are about same end even when jumping... So it wont make any difference to stations becuse they can run for long time anyway. And there is no risk involved so no matter even how ships slow/fast go outcome is always almost same.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

When boosting they are about same end even when jumping... So it wont make any difference to stations becuse they can run for long time anyway. And there is no risk involved so no matter even how ships slow/fast go outcome is always almost same.

This is in your opinion rather than incontrovertible fact.

Boosting is X-times base speed, so faster ships boost fast, and agility is important to steering to. Similarly, whilst there may be play styles with minimal risk, there are others where that doesn't apply. Such as if wanting to use Albion whilst fighting against the slaving PMC, or if using the TO addon. Faster ships run a lower risk of attack.

[Santi]

AI has nothing to do with a "first come, first served" economic model, it is just a mad rush for the station with the cheapest wares.

Seriously, a Rahanas will do at least two trips in the time a Titurel will do one. I know, and anyone that has done some serious trading knows it. It is not a matter of how you see it, but a fact due to a few hundred hours trading.

[Nikola515]

@Sparky

They might matter little in zone but off zone they are all almost the same. OT is different story and we are not talking about that. I would personally use most powerful ships with escort (if it worked ). Each ship should have it's role and that was my point.Just like you have powerful ships for dangerous areas there should be role for small fast or big slow ship for normal or safe sectors...


@SANTI

AI should have big role with this economy. At this point AI sucks and it would be need improved or rewritten in order too keep up with all this orders. At this point it can hardly run some of my stations that shouldn't have any problems (we already talked about this in different topic and im not going start all over again ).

Exactly that is my point. Rahanas need 2 trips (use more F-Cells) than Titurel. So everyone gets Titurels because they are better than Rahana. But if Rahana could use its speed to get faster /better deal than Titurel ? You do make two trips but you get better price because you beat slower ship to it.... Also 5 star AI manager shouldn't send ships if there is no high chance geting it first. And even if it does automatically look for better deal. It will be hard but more challenging.

Edit: What im trying to say is no matter if ship is fast or slow it won't rally matter because it's cargo is secure in station and waiting for them whenever they get there. And speed don't rally matter because stations can run for long time. So even if ship is late it is not going to make much difference.

[GCU Grey Area]

@Nikola515

Have you ever actually used any of the smaller freighters? From what you write it sounds like you have no personal experience of the difference between them & the XL brutes, & have always gone for highest capacity with little regard for how slow that makes every trade run. Seriously, try the smaller ships (I highly recommend the Lepton & Styrvoks sold at the DV shipyard) - speed & agility make a huge difference to flight times, even OOZ.

As for station AI, recent patches have improved this aspect of the game greatly. At present have 15 stations in my current game (started in 3.5, currently running the latest beta) ALL of which are functioning well, have good stocks of raw materials (including previously problematic items such as Ion Cells) & are having no difficulties supplying each other or trading their products with NPC stations (at least those which are permitted to - don't like my stations auto-selling RMP etc, I need that stuff). Also been experimenting with an XR equivalent to CLS (http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=377014) over the past few days, which has been doing a fine job of exporting Silicon Wafers & Refined Metals from my plot URV station in DV to a couple of my stations which can use the stuff in OL. If you've stopped playing XR due to frustration might be a good time to give it another go.

[Nikola515]

Lol nope i don't know what they are and i haven't even played game

Jk

Anyway i use all of small ships for trading I have built self sufficient economy in DV and i use almost small ships to do all of my trades(I have over 40 stations and over 100 ships ). I didnt play game for some time but thats another story...Also i have built my recharge fabs and it makes it pretty good sink for my F-Cells.... Allof my large ships XL i use for galaxy trader (mod). They have enough firepower/drones to defend against almost everything. Also i use player shipyard for extra sink and building my own ships cheap. So my answer yes i have put quite numer in XR and empire building. I think i restarted game 6 times after building large empires (in one of them i had over 100 stations ).

Again this is not even what im talking about..... Yes they are faster.... My point is even thought they have speed there is not any advantage to it. As soon as manager makes order deal is seald. So having faster ship will not do anything. So if you think about it slow ship with more cargo will buy 100k e cell and small 50k for same price. Small ship is going to take two trips using 600 Fuel Cells and large ship will use 300. So what is more profitable here ? There is almost no advantage using small fast ships. Do you see my point here? Also current AI cant utilize full cargo anyway so it don't make much difference in XR.... This is just my opinion anyway;)

[Santi]

Again this is not even what im talking about..... Yes they are faster.... My point is even thought they have speed there is not any advantage to it. As soon as manager makes order deal is seald. So having faster ship will not do anything. So if you think about it slow ship with more cargo will buy 100k e cell and small 50k for same price. Small ship is going to take two trips using 600 Fuel Cells and large ship will use 300. So what is more profitable here ? There is almost no advantage using small fast ships. Do you see my point here? Also current AI cant utilize full cargo anyway so it don't make much difference in XR.... This is just my opinion anyway;)

Nikola515, we are talking about player Trade, via the Trade menu with ships you control, open trade menu, select a trade, order your ship to execute a trade, were a Rahanas will make double the money than a Titurel because is faster and does more trade runs offsetting the rather low fuel cell cost, we are not talking about Station manager trade buying or selling.

On the subject of Station manager, good AI or no AI, it will break the economy, as managers with the fastest ships will always get the wares first, having a dominoes effect and making eventually all stations to run out of resources. Managers work by margin, not volume. That is why sometimes will not buy a ware, even if they need it, that is what needs to be refined.

[Nikola515]

@Santi

Sorry... But i was actually talking about stations trade not player trading. Actually I don't think there would be domino effect at all. If i get best price second ships that arive will just have to pay little more money for it products It is not like one ship can clean whole station(well most of them anyway ) . Also NPC have unlimited money so it is not like it is going to make any difference to them. There is always more than one station and they have huge cargospace anyway. Personally i don't think they will ever run out and even if they do there is other station that will replace them (it is matter of balance ). Another thing is how close stations are close to each other.
As for trade menu we are not talking about XR but XR2 or perhaps X4. Im just comparing XR economy to it.... But i think i should compare it to X3 because it would be more simular.

Edit : Also AI should be able to calculate distance as well as fuel cell usage to calculate best proffit run. So we don't se manager like idiot sending ship 3 sectors away to buy 100 E-Cells

[Santi]

That is the system that we have now, the first station to get the trade offer gets the best price, second station has to pay a bit more and so on, till the ware due to demand becomes so expensive that Managers wait till more is produced and the price goes down.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

"Yay, a batch of ~100 Fusion Rectors has appeared on the market that I urgently need! I should send my best, big, fat trader with a massive cargobay!"

No, no benefits from smaller trade ships in Rebirth.....

If you can alway fill an XL, extra slow ship with everything needed and don't care when it arrived, great. If not, or you need to make a sale asap to provide some cash, not so great.