Russia-Ukraine War

[Mailo]

In other news from Russia:
Elena Ponomareva (professor of history) sends her greetings to her former students now on the front lines and tells them to only return with their shields, only alive.
After this the moderator of the show (Vladimir Solovyov) interjects:
"With their shield and alive? I don't know about that ... Life is grossly overrated"
And finally Sergey Mikheyev (political scientist) has this to add to the question of Solovyov "Where do the borders of Russia end?":
Vladimir Vladimirovich (aka Putin) clearly said: nowhere. Ok, then let's make a globe of Russia.
Answer by Solovyov:
Yes, that is the correct thought.

So not even dying Russian recruits matter, and Russia should encompass the whole earth. Can anyone remind me again why the narrative ALSO is that Russia is defending itself from evil NATO oppression and invasion?
Keep in mind this guy is highly decorated by Putin, and close to him.

[mr.WHO]

Well, it seems that Ukraine is getting more armor:

U.S. weapons package for Ukraine includes 50 Bradley Fighting Vehicles

Link

Hopefully Ukraine will put them to good use.

Great! Now we are one step closer to tanks since France will also send AMX-10 RC and Germany will send Marder 1.
Still hoping for the rest of ex-soviet planes and gunships from all over Central Europe to fill the gaps till (eventually) F-16, A-10 and F-15 start to pop up.

[Warenwolf]

In other news from Russia:
Elena Ponomareva (professor of history) sends her greetings to her former students now on the front lines and tells them to only return with their shields, only alive.
After this the moderator of the show (Vladimir Solovyov) interjects:
"With their shield and alive? I don't know about that ... Life is grossly overrated"

Depends - maybe in Putin's corner of the world, living indeed is overrated... however, on more serious side, that statement and "death being inevitable" is bit rich coming from a guy that owns a Maybach and had house in Italy with at least one of his children having foreign education. Why isn't he volunteering for the front - or his son Alexander? Oh wait...oligarchs are exempt.

[mr.WHO]

In addition to Marders, Germany will also send Patriots as well.

Seem like a lot (eastern) Christmas presents for Ukraine today.

[fiksal]

Ha okay, I was wondering what that meant, thanks for clarifying.

I do remember year ago it was only US troops according to Russian media, so now I see they swapped it out.

AFAIR the current narrative is that Russia already destroyed entire Ukrainian army and equipment.
Now they fight solely NATO force including a few polish brigades.

it's hard to keep up to date with all the propaganda.
For amusement I usually stick with Girkin (relatively down to earth, but still propaganda) and Solowlov (really nut level, but amusing).

well that's nuts!

do you understand Russian or is someone translating?

I cant listen to Solovyov

In other news from Russia:
Elena Ponomareva (professor of history) sends her greetings to her former students now on the front lines and tells them to only return with their shields, only alive.
After this the moderator of the show (Vladimir Solovyov) interjects:
"With their shield and alive? I don't know about that ... Life is grossly overrated"
And finally Sergey Mikheyev (political scientist) has this to add to the question of Solovyov "Where do the borders of Russia end?":
Vladimir Vladimirovich (aka Putin) clearly said: nowhere. Ok, then let's make a globe of Russia.
Answer by Solovyov:
Yes, that is the correct thought.

So not even dying Russian recruits matter, and Russia should encompass the whole earth. Can anyone remind me again why the narrative ALSO is that Russia is defending itself from evil NATO oppression and invasion?
Keep in mind this guy is highly decorated by Putin, and close to him.

all part of this Russian version of fascism.
Russians are superior, other nations either dont matter or dont exist.
Dying for your country is the proper way to go.

I think your question is rhetoric. But I can answer if you like.

The above mentioned Russian (fascists) see that if Russia cant do what it wants in other countries, cant control how their government works and how their contries are running, especially ex Soviet countries, it's implicitely under attack. To also remind, that to them the world is pretty black and white. They dont understand, see, or believe in things like democratically elect government, freedom of speech or press, they dont believe in citizens, only in subjects. And as any tribal mentality like this, they automatically believe other countries are enemies.

[mr.WHO]

do you understand Russian or is someone translating?

Several Polish Youtubers (who before war had channels about post-soviet sphere) are doing periodic videos about main Russian propaganda points and personas.
Usually it's original raw video with subtitle translation, but depending on vocabulary I'm often able to catch 30-50% meaning without translation.
Several months more and I'll propably buff my russian listenting by significant margin, ableit when I look at cyrylic, it might be as well klingon or Tolkiens' elvish to me

[Mailo]

all part of this Russian version of fascism.
Russians are superior, other nations either dont matter or dont exist.
Dying for your country is the proper way to go.

I think your question is rhetoric. But I can answer if you like.

The above mentioned Russian (fascists) see that if Russia cant do what it wants in other countries, cant control how their government works and how their contries are running, especially ex Soviet countries, it's implicitely under attack. To also remind, that to them the world is pretty black and white. They dont understand, see, or believe in things like democratically elect government, freedom of speech or press, they dont believe in citizens, only in subjects. And as any tribal mentality like this, they automatically believe other countries are enemies.

It was a semi rethoric question, but thank you for answering. Semi because while I do know why they keep throwing out lie after absurd lie (propaganda, throw enough shit at a wall, some will stick), I did not understand how people could fall for such obvious falsehoods, where questions are basically answered with both "yes, definitely" and "no, of course not" at the same time, sometimes even within the same episode of a TV show.

[fiksal]

do you understand Russian or is someone translating?

Several Polish Youtubers (who before war had channels about post-soviet sphere) are doing periodic videos about main Russian propaganda points and personas.
Usually it's original raw video with subtitle translation, but depending on vocabulary I'm often able to catch 30-50% meaning without translation.
Several months more and I'll propably buff my russian listenting by significant margin, ableit when I look at cyrylic, it might be as well klingon or Tolkiens' elvish to me

you have more stamina than I

all part of this Russian version of fascism.
Russians are superior, other nations either dont matter or dont exist.
Dying for your country is the proper way to go.

I think your question is rhetoric. But I can answer if you like.

The above mentioned Russian (fascists) see that if Russia cant do what it wants in other countries, cant control how their government works and how their contries are running, especially ex Soviet countries, it's implicitely under attack. To also remind, that to them the world is pretty black and white. They dont understand, see, or believe in things like democratically elect government, freedom of speech or press, they dont believe in citizens, only in subjects. And as any tribal mentality like this, they automatically believe other countries are enemies.

It was a semi rethoric question, but thank you for answering. Semi because while I do know why they keep throwing out lie after absurd lie (propaganda, throw enough shit at a wall, some will stick), I did not understand how people could fall for such obvious falsehoods, where questions are basically answered with both "yes, definitely" and "no, of course not" at the same time, sometimes even within the same episode of a TV show.

I think I typed something more in depth before, as my opinion of course, but maybe I can re-summarize since it's a long thread.

The answer to "why" is pretty long one, and you have to kinda see from their point of view if you want to get it.

Kremlin does was it does because Kremlin thinks Russia is a super power, that was wronged. The world owes Russia for saving it from Nazis, owes for (West) deliberately distroying the Soviet Union. Owes for not listening to Russia's opinion.

Ukraine was attacked because it challenged Russia's authority. Ukraine started talking about EU, flirted with NATO. Nevermind the military base and the access to the sea, there's more than just military strategy at stake, - Ukraine is Russia, there's no such country as Ukraine to Kremlin. There's even no such language as Ukrainian, no such people as Ukranian. The last part you've even heard on this forum, from three posters that I've counted.

I said Russia is fascist, and I'll standby by it for now. I am not the first one, nor I am putting significant work into this idea. Merely repeating what was already said by people smarter than me. It's a fascism with some differences and weaknesses. Beyond just above, Kremlin, Russian media, conversations between some Russians see Russians as superior. It's common place to refer most or all things west as rotten, broken, immoral, people as weak and incensere. Orthrodox church poked its claws and pitched in on that one, extended the idea how fallen and godless Europe is in comparison.

Elderly and less educated are eating this up. And they feel wronged just like Kremlin says. From having better days to living in modern day Russia, backed up by Kremlin media repeating for the last 20(!) years how West every single day has been working to destroy Russia, and Russians.

Kremlin pushes crazy conspiracies which are easily consumed to support the notion. Ukraine for example has been developing bio weapons / viruses to directly affect Russian "genes", viruses that would be delivered by birds. The source of this info - Russian army, allegedly destroying American bio labs under ground.

Kremlin is fascist, but without a solid ideology, it pushes varios ideas to see what will resonate with people, what will stick. Once idea becames too boring it moves on. I've not heard of bio labs since for example. So it's trying others. It tested how people react on statements that all non pro-Russia Ukrainians need to be "eliminated", - the answer is - "war is war", "gotta defend motherland", "Putin is right". It has been testing the idea of using nuclear weapons, first mentioned some 8+ years ago - same reaction actuall - "gotta defend". And there are many more! Some come and go on daily basis. If you ask average apolitical Russian - they might even reply - "there's no way to know the truth", or "everyone is lying", followed up by "I believe Putin". Bucha happens and everyone shrugs, probably including people who did the work.

Apolitical has been the key for the last 20 years. Kremlin intentionally or accidentally had built up that idea with people - you worry about yourself, your mortgage, and we'll worry about politics, running the country. This has been accepted. If you again ask a Russian about a war, you may just get also a reply - "I dont care, it's hard enough to live on my paycheck".

And that's the mix, you have facisct ideas mixing with apolitical subjects, who dont trust anything, except that you have to defend the motherland above all else, your own life, your sons' lives.

You cant show destruction in Ukraine, because first they won't believe then they'll say Ukranians did it themselves. You cant talk about refugees or the dead, and mass graves - you get the same exact responses. And if you do show something that Kremlin accepted as dead civilians, Russians will answer - "that is war", "if they wouldnt fight they'd be alive". That last statement is exactly the result of this mix, and also was repeated here twice or more. It's not a rare statement in Russian world.

Empathy is violently opposed.

Perhaps this isnt short, and I'll add my regular disclaimer that not all Russians think this way, I dont think this way. And while I (partly) understand why they think this way, I do not excuse that. But it is a lot, because apolitical Russians are sponsoring this war just like the openly fascist ones. And opposition is fragmented.

Kremlin and Putin's rule is on a timer. And so is Russia, because as it was stated for 20 years, Putin is Russia, so what is Russia without Putin? Putin somehow will need to deal with growing fascism and accidentally making apolitical population more into political one. Even if goals align, both of these could mean end of his rule if he doesnt win the war this year. Which he lost last year.

[chew-ie]

Thanks (again) for these insights.

It's baffling to see the extend of kaputt of this state.

[Vertigo 7]

Elena Ponomareva (professor of history) sends her greetings to her former students now on the front lines and tells them to only return with their shields, only alive.

Was this some poor attempt at quoting 300 "Come back with your shield, or on it"?

[jlehtone]

Was this some poor attempt at quoting 300 "Come back with your shield, or on it"?

That Spartan phrase is older than the 300, so historian probably would not quote the latter.

While the Spartan message was: "Do not desert.", this greeting was closer to "Do not desert nor die."

[Observe]

Kremlin and Putin's rule is on a timer. And so is Russia, because as it was stated for 20 years, Putin is Russia, so what is Russia without Putin? Putin somehow will need to deal with growing fascism and accidentally making apolitical population more into political one. Even if goals align, both of these could mean end of his rule if he doesnt win the war this year. Which he lost last year.

As always, I appreciate your insights. I wonder how you see things unfolding re. Ukraine, if Putin "disappeared" from the picture tomorrow or some time soon? How do you see the line of succession within the Russian political apparatus and would Putin simply be replaced by someone already aligned with Putin's philosophy, policies and lust for power? Or, would this lead to a complete upheaval of the Russian political landscape?

[fiksal]

I think I need to do some homework on this.

Doesn't appear anyone particularly stands out from Putin's circle. He seemed to have been distancing himself, so a hand over of power seems unclear.

By force or back deals maybe more likely. Unclear who that would be.

Some guess that Putin's plans for Russian empire are not sincerely shared by others in the government, even if they buy into the Russian World ideas, money still talks.


It would be chaos if there's more than one contender. Or if Navalny is suddenly out of prison.

[mr.WHO]

Seem like even winter betrayed Putin - while it's rather warm and nice in Europe there is -20 to -40 degre full winter more or less within Russia borders.

[chew-ie]

just-ice

[mr.WHO]

Polish President confirmed that Poland will provide company (10 tanks) of Leopards 2 and is working with other European countries to gather more of them.

Aparently the only thing left is official approval from Germany as a producer.

[Falcrack]

Hopefully this small number of Leo 2s will open the door to donations from many other countries. Hopefully Abrams too. Yes I know of all the arguements against the Abrams, but honestly they all smell like excuses to me. The Ukrainians could make Abrams work quite effectively, if the political will to deliver them and the supplies necessary to maintain them and fuel them were also delivered.

[mr.WHO]

Aparently Spain, Finland and Denmark are on board of Leo 2 train.

There are also more hints that UK want to add their tanks too, albeit it might be tricky logistically.

[chew-ie]

Woah - this surgeon sure has a steady hand while removing a dud VOG

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... iers-chest

[Sovereign01]

Woah - this surgeon sure has a steady hand while removing a dud VOG

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... iers-chest

They said the grenade "did not explode, but remained explosive.”

Interestingly, both sides use the GP-25.