Russia-Ukraine War

[himid]

I am more and more convinced that you Westerners look at this war as a cartoon ... as a computer game

No. It is a terrible, unnecessary tragedy. Do you agree?

War is always a tragedy. But wars happen, and even now wars are happening not only in Ukraine.

Only here my opinion on this war (in Ukraine) seems to be very different from yours. My opinion is that this is not a war of 2 states at all. Let's look wider and take a larger piece of history. What is Ukraine? This is a fragment of the Russian Empire. And here I'm not talking about "imperial ambitions", but about a state that existed quite recently (by the standards of history). So, within the borders of this state, a certain people formed, which, yes ... consisted of certain nationalities.

Even in ancient times, various Slavic tribes had civil strife, and then there were wars. Most recently there was a civil war (just over 100 years ago). And in general, now it is also a civil war. After all, as we were one people, we remained ... 30 years is not a period. In fact, this is a CIVIL war on the territory of the former Russian Empire, and then the USSR. This is the civil war. And here there are even cases when members of the same family fight on different sides.

And my opinion is that all that Western countries are doing now is fomenting this war. In a civil war, peoples either fight furiously or look for ways out. And they CAN find a way out if they do not throw firewood into the flames of war. Namely, this is what the West is doing now, they are helping to last the war as long as possible.

And my opinion: This game with fire won't end well. People are not stupid and see everything (this applies to both sides of the conflict).

[notaterran]

If the West had not filled up Ukraine with weapons, then there would have been ten times fewer victims.

That's been a standard Kremlin talking point, I'm surprised it keeps coming up because this logical fallacy has been debunked time and time again (esd beat me to it).

[...] to claim it's the West arming Ukraine that's at fault is like saying "hey, I was happily bullying Bob and you went and gave him a gun, so when I went to break his leg, he shot me! See how many shootings you caused?!?" - It's a non-sequitur, your position makes no sense because you are literally criticising the West for helping a country that was invaded by a hostile force.

You might as well have written the NATO invite for Ukraine yourself.

[Mailo]

War is always a tragedy. But wars happen, and even now wars are happening not only in Ukraine.

Only here my opinion on this war (in Ukraine) seems to be very different from yours. My opinion is that this is not a war of 2 states at all. Let's look wider and take a larger piece of history. What is Ukraine? This is a fragment of the Russian Empire. And here I'm not talking about "imperial ambitions", but about a state that existed quite recently (by the standards of history). So, within the borders of this state, a certain people formed, which, yes ... consisted of certain nationalities.

Even in ancient times, various Slavic tribes had civil strife, and then there were wars. Most recently there was a civil war (just over 100 years ago). And in general, now it is also a civil war. After all, as we were one people, we remained ... 30 years is not a period. In fact, this is a CIVIL war on the territory of the former Russian Empire, and then the USSR. This is the civil war. And here there are even cases when members of the same family fight on different sides.

And my opinion is that all that Western countries are doing now is fomenting this war. In a civil war, peoples either fight furiously or look for ways out. And they CAN find a way out if they do not throw firewood into the flames of war. Namely, this is what the West is doing now, they are helping to last the war as long as possible.

And my opinion: This game with fire won't end well. People are not stupid and see everything (this applies to both sides of the conflict).

Except that this is not a civil war, but a war between two sovereign nations, where Russia is very obviously the aggressor who started this war by invading Ukraine without even declaring it first, after already annexing parts of it back in 2014.
You can't just declare a neighbouring independent nation to be part of your land to make it a civil war, international law does not work that way. This is not a matter of opinion. There are treaties which Russia signed which govern how to behave in this way. Apparently though Russia no longer feels the need to honor any signed international treaties and contracts, which will be remembered in the future. It should then not come as a surprise if other nations also no longer feel bound by treaties signed with Russia, since it has proven to be an untrustworthy terrorist state.

[himid]

If the West had not filled up Ukraine with weapons, then there would have been ten times fewer victims.

That's been a standard Kremlin talking point, I'm surprised it keeps coming up because this logical fallacy has been debunked time and time again (esd beat me to it).

[...] to claim it's the West arming Ukraine that's at fault is like saying "hey, I was happily bullying Bob and you went and gave him a gun, so when I went to break his leg, he shot me! See how many shootings you caused?!?" - It's a non-sequitur, your position makes no sense because you are literally criticising the West for helping a country that was invaded by a hostile force.

You might as well have written the NATO invite for Ukraine yourself.

Believe me, in 5 years Ukrainians will hate you for this "help". Because if not for this "help", hundreds of thousands of families would not have lost their sons and fathers.

Although I'll tell you a secret, thousands of Polish families have already suffered losses. Judging by what I heard on Ukrainian videos, it is the Poles who are fighting on Polish equipment. So we can already state the direct participation of Poland in this war. However, this has so far been ignored due to the fact that no one wants an even larger war. Just like for 8 years, Russia tried to reconcile Donbass with today's Ukraine. Russia honestly tried to return the Donbass back to Ukraine. But as Merkel recently said, the West needed the Minsk agreements to train the Ukrainian army, not to achieve peace. After her words, there is no doubt who really needs this war.

Now Russia really does not want an uncontrolled expansion of this war. But if this continues, then nothing is excluded. Do you want it? Do you want to take a direct part in this war?

[notaterran]

As for nuclear weapons, we're already used to Russia's empty threats. This is from April 2022, here you go:

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov warned the West on Monday not to underestimate the elevated risks of nuclear conflict over Ukraine and said he viewed NATO as being "in essence" engaged in a proxy war with Russia by supplying Kyiv with weaponry.

Link

And in April 2023 Russia might still be making empty threats about nuclear weapons; the longer this war goes on the more they resemble North Korea.

[himid]

Except that this is not a civil war, but a war between two sovereign nations, where Russia is very obviously the aggressor who started this war by invading Ukraine without even declaring it first, after already annexing parts of it back in 2014.
You can't just declare a neighbouring independent nation to be part of your land to make it a civil war, international law does not work that way. This is not a matter of opinion. There are treaties which Russia signed which govern how to behave in this way. Apparently though Russia no longer feels the need to honor any signed international treaties and contracts, which will be remembered in the future. It should then not come as a surprise if other nations also no longer feel bound by treaties signed with Russia, since it has proven to be an untrustworthy terrorist state.

You have to learn to go beyond traditional definitions. Once again: 30 years on the scale of history is not even one day. This is one minute. Your whole life in history is 2-3 minutes.
Learn to think globally. Citizens of Russia and citizens of Ukraine are one people. This is a war within one nation. These are people with one history, one tradition. This is a civil war!

And I want to ask the West one simple question: Are you happy that you pitted essentially relatives of people against each other? And what will you do when they figure out the situation (and this will definitely happen), understand what damage they have done, who is to blame?

And people, by the way, are already beginning to understand. As I said earlier, I communicate with several Ukrainians. They live in this war, but at the same time they understand more and more what I wrote about above.

[himid]

As for nuclear weapons, we're already used to Russia's empty threats. This is from April 2022, here you go:

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov warned the West on Monday not to underestimate the elevated risks of nuclear conflict over Ukraine and said he viewed NATO as being "in essence" engaged in a proxy war with Russia by supplying Kyiv with weaponry.

Link

And in April 2023 Russia might still be making empty threats about nuclear weapons; the longer this war goes on the more they resemble North Korea.

Do you really want to check it out? What is really going on in your head? Do you even understand what will happen if it comes to a nuclear war? No one will survive... and the survivors will envy the dead.

It really seems like an entertaining movie to you and you really think that you will never be in this movie. By the way, I think that this is one of the reasons for the war: self-confidence and total historical amnesia. The generation who remember how the world war began is gone... and... everything starts again... but the weapons are now more deadly.

[esd]

About the war. I am more and more convinced that you Westerners look at this war as a cartoon ... as a computer game: "Oh, look how strong they are. Let's give them even more weapons so that they resist more" .

No, I regard it as the last gasp of a dying leader to make his mark on history before it is too late. Unfortunately, all his advisors are terrified to tell him the truth; the military is not as capable as they lead him to believe.

However, 90% of the military there did not want to go to war at all. They are simply not allowed out of the cities and forced to fight. Many of them run away from the subpoenas, but in the end they are found and sent to the troops, where they do not know at all what they are fighting for. People are dying and you are throwing wood into the furnace of war.

Huh, I thought for a moment you were referring to Russia's "partial mobilisation" that sent Russian men racing to leave Russia.

Do you like watching Russians kill Russians?

Except that's not what we are watching, is it? They are not Russians you are killing. You can't make them Russian again by trying to invade them, like some spurned lover who can't take that it's over and kidnaps them because they are "meant to be".

there is no doubt who really needs this war.

Right, it's Putin.

Ukraine left the USSR and is quite happy without Russia, else they'd not be fighting against Russia's invasion. It's over. They don't want you (Russia) any more.

The sooner Russia realises it should not be there, the more lives will be saved. It's not up to us to step back and let you bully a smaller country back into a relationship it doesn't want, it's not up to Ukraine to roll over and let you invade unopposed, no

but the weapons are now more deadly.

Then stop invading other countries.

Russia needs to stop attacking a sovereign nation. That will spare lives and let Ukraine determine its own future; in NATO, in the EU, in the Russian federation or something else entirely.

[Mailo]

Except that this is not a civil war, but a war between two sovereign nations, where Russia is very obviously the aggressor who started this war by invading Ukraine without even declaring it first, after already annexing parts of it back in 2014.
You can't just declare a neighbouring independent nation to be part of your land to make it a civil war, international law does not work that way. This is not a matter of opinion. There are treaties which Russia signed which govern how to behave in this way. Apparently though Russia no longer feels the need to honor any signed international treaties and contracts, which will be remembered in the future. It should then not come as a surprise if other nations also no longer feel bound by treaties signed with Russia, since it has proven to be an untrustworthy terrorist state.

You have to learn to go beyond traditional definitions. Once again: 30 years on the scale of history is not even one day. This is one minute. Your whole life in history is 2-3 minutes.
Learn to think globally. Citizens of Russia and citizens of Ukraine are one people. This is a war within one nation. These are people with one history, one tradition. This is a civil war!

And I want to ask the West one simple question: Are you happy that you pitted essentially relatives of people against each other? And what will you do when they figure out the situation (and this will definitely happen), understand what damage they have done, who is to blame?

And people, by the way, are already beginning to understand. As I said earlier, I communicate with several Ukrainians. They live in this war, but at the same time they understand more and more what I wrote about above.

Sorry, the world does not work that way. Today, Ukraine and Russia are two sovereign states / countries. The same as USA, China, India and any of the other 190 countries that currently exist. This is the only thing that counts.
You do realize that your argument could just as easily be used to justify an invasion of Russia by China, Mongolia, Kazakhstan or Finland? Would you be pacified if that occurs if someone told you "Learn to go beyond traditional definitions, 300 years is just 10 minutes?" Look up sometime what the borders of Russia were 300 years ago ... after all, why should we only go back 30 years if we want to redesign borders, after all, it is just a minute? Let's go back 24 minutes (which would be the year 1300 and reduce Russia to a few kilometers around Moscow ...

And regarding nuclear war ... there is currently one single nation threatening the world with nuclear strikes.
In one thing you are correct though ... it seems things start over again. The last world war was started by an egomanical powerhungry dictator who managed to get Germany to follow him blindly by invading the sovereign country of Poland under false pretenses ... this time it is Russia, invading the sovereign country of Ukraine to bring down a Nazi Jew, however that works.

[esd]

Sorry, the world does not work that way. Today, Ukraine and Russia are two sovereign states / countries. The same as USA, China, India and any of the other 190 countries that currently exist. This is the only thing that counts.
You do realize that your argument could just as easily be used to justify an invasion of Russia by China, Mongolia, Kazakhstan or Finland? Would you be pacified if that occurs if someone told you "Learn to go beyond traditional definitions, 300 years is just 10 minutes?" Look up sometime what the borders of Russia were 300 years ago ... after all, why should we only go back 30 years if we want to redesign borders, after all, it is just a minute? Let's go back 24 minutes (which would be the year 1300 and reduce Russia to a few kilometers around Moscow ...

Ooo, we're playing "historical empirical territories still belong to us, really"? Excellent. USA, you're British, French, Spanish and first nation! India, Pakistan, you're British too. Sorry, himid said so.

[Mailo]

Ooo, we're playing "historical empirical territories still belong to us, really"? Excellent. USA, you're British, French, Spanish and first nation! India, Pakistan, you're British too. Sorry, himid said so.

You mean USA, India and Pakistan are Swedish, right? Since England was conquered by Vikings? Although ... maybe they are all Italian, since the Romans got there before the Vikings? Maybe himid can decide that for us.

[fiksal]

I think himid will next tell us not to resist while his ilk is murdering people by thousands.


I am glad he stopped by, what a perfect another example of a Putin's supporter. Everyone should meet one.

[notaterran]

Do you even understand what will happen if it comes to a nuclear war?

My point is, it is unlikely that it will come to nuclear war because Russia is resembling North Korea more and more. Simply put, we can expect Russia to continue to issue empty threats against the West.

[mr.WHO]

Although I'll tell you a secret, thousands of Polish families have already suffered losses. Judging by what I heard on Ukrainian videos, it is the Poles who are fighting on Polish equipment. So we can already state the direct participation of Poland in this war. However, this has so far been ignored due to the fact that no one wants an even larger war. Just like for 8 years, Russia tried to reconcile Donbass with today's Ukraine. Russia honestly tried to return the Donbass back to Ukraine. But as Merkel recently said, the West needed the Minsk agreements to train the Ukrainian army, not to achieve peace. After her words, there is no doubt who really needs this war.

I'm a Pole and you're gulping russian propaganda so crude that it's funny.
According to Russia, half of Polish Army is already fighting in Ukraine and we already annexed 1/3 of Ukraine, yet there is no mass KIA or MIA reports at all.
One would though, that if there would be thousands dead and wounded, people would notice during Christmas reunions.
So far Polish volunteer confirmed losses is about 10 dead, 20 wounded.

As for Ukrainians not being able to operate Western equipment - I guess Russia yet again measure them by average provincial russian standard.
There are tens of thousand Ukrainians trained for months, who are perfectly capable to operate Krabs, Gepard, Western SAM.
There will be more professional highly trained Ukrainian to come since the EU training centers poped-up all over Europe.

[Vertigo 7]

Sorry, the world does not work that way. Today, Ukraine and Russia are two sovereign states / countries. The same as USA, China, India and any of the other 190 countries that currently exist. This is the only thing that counts.
You do realize that your argument could just as easily be used to justify an invasion of Russia by China, Mongolia, Kazakhstan or Finland? Would you be pacified if that occurs if someone told you "Learn to go beyond traditional definitions, 300 years is just 10 minutes?" Look up sometime what the borders of Russia were 300 years ago ... after all, why should we only go back 30 years if we want to redesign borders, after all, it is just a minute? Let's go back 24 minutes (which would be the year 1300 and reduce Russia to a few kilometers around Moscow ...

Ooo, we're playing "historical empirical territories still belong to us, really"? Excellent. USA, you're British, French, Spanish and first nation! India, Pakistan, you're British too. Sorry, himid said so.

You know what, I'm all for it. Let's shake things up and get rid of both the GoP and democrats and bring us under British rule. I can blend in... Cherio, mate. Bob's your uncle! I took the lift to the street level and stripped down to my pants and tossed my clothes in the boot and scarpered. See... I'm practically British already!

[mr.WHO]

Modern problem require...old solution?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwNfnlL47dM

It's quite amusing to see that equipment deemd to be old or outdated find new purpose.

Taking Shahed with ye old WW1 Maxim must be one a hell feat.

[fiksal]

Ooo, we're playing "historical empirical territories still belong to us, really"? Excellent. USA, you're British, French, Spanish and first nation! India, Pakistan, you're British too. Sorry, himid said so.

You mean USA, India and Pakistan are Swedish, right? Since England was conquered by Vikings? Although ... maybe they are all Italian, since the Romans got there before the Vikings? Maybe himid can decide that for us.

I too can play this game.

Most of Russia belongs to Mongolia, and real legitimate capital of what's left is Kyiv, not Moscow.

Let's get to it

I'm a Pole and you're gulping russian propaganda so crude that it's funny.
According to Russia, half of Polish Army is already fighting in Ukraine and we already annexed 1/3 of Ukraine, yet there is no mass KIA or MIA reports at all.

Ha okay, I was wondering what that meant, thanks for clarifying.

I do remember year ago it was only US troops according to Russian media, so now I see they swapped it out.

[mr.WHO]

Ha okay, I was wondering what that meant, thanks for clarifying.

I do remember year ago it was only US troops according to Russian media, so now I see they swapped it out.

AFAIR the current narrative is that Russia already destroyed entire Ukrainian army and equipment.
Now they fight solely NATO force including a few polish brigades.

it's hard to keep up to date with all the propaganda.
For amusement I usually stick with Girkin (relatively down to earth, but still propaganda) and Solowlov (really nut level, but amusing).

[jlehtone]

No. It is a terrible, unnecessary tragedy. Do you agree?

War is always a tragedy. But wars happen, and even now wars are happening not only in Ukraine.

No. Wars do not "happen" (a passive). Somebody starts them and continues them. In this case Russia did start the war.

[notaterran]

Well, it seems that Ukraine is getting more armor:

U.S. weapons package for Ukraine includes 50 Bradley Fighting Vehicles

Link

Hopefully Ukraine will put them to good use.