[Jobs] SRM[8/6] and Xtra[20/4]

The place to discuss scripting and game modifications for X³: Terran Conflict and X³: Albion Prelude.

Moderators: Scripting / Modding Moderators, Moderators for English X Forum

Mizuchi
Posts: 806
Joined: Thu, 10. Feb 11, 05:48

Post by Mizuchi »

builder680 wrote:I'm not sure which is going to be more work though, finding a scripter who wants to do this, or changing out spawned ships. I guess the only way to find out is to put out a "LF scripter" topic...
Well, between Vkerinav's choices of:

A) If it ain't broke, don't fix it (but maybe someone else can improve it) or,
B) Do a lot of work changing what is generally a cosmetic mechanical issue (only to change it all back again if someone improves it),

I can answer that one for you. :D
builder680
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon, 14. Feb 11, 03:58
x4

Post by builder680 »

Mizuchi wrote:
builder680 wrote:I'm not sure which is going to be more work though, finding a scripter who wants to do this, or changing out spawned ships. I guess the only way to find out is to put out a "LF scripter" topic...
Well, between Vkerinav's choices of:

A) If it ain't broke, don't fix it (but maybe someone else can improve it) or,
B) Do a lot of work changing what is generally a cosmetic mechanical issue (only to change it all back again if someone improves it),

I can answer that one for you. :D
The thing is, it IS broke.

Hostile ships are supposed to attack you, are they not? If they use missiles, they should fire those missiles. These ships are hostile, and have a LOT of missiles, but never fire a single one.

Go to Savage Spur (if you have these jobs) and watch yourself get charged by M7M after M7M that runs straight at you and then does absolutely nothing, except be a pin cushion for your fleet. That's the definition of "broke," I would think.

If they are supposed to form part of a fleet that is meant to deter entry to enemies of the Yaki, these ships (as currently scripted) do not do that. So they are basically flying speed bumps. The only two ways I can think to address this are 1) 'change them to ships that can fight' or 2) 'fix their script.' I'm not sure which is easier. Sure, 3) 'leaving it alone' is easier, but it would be nice to encounter only ships that can shoot back when engaging the enemy.
Last edited by builder680 on Mon, 18. Apr 11, 20:52, edited 1 time in total.
Mizuchi
Posts: 806
Joined: Thu, 10. Feb 11, 05:48

Post by Mizuchi »

builder680 wrote:It IS broke.
Well, it is and it isn't.

Obviously, the AI M7Ms aren't doing what you (and I) feel they should do.

However, in all the time since Egosoft released X3:TC, they haven't patched it.

So the question is: is it broke, or it an intended feature? Did Egosoft just not want M7Ms blowing everything up? Could they not implement a viable missile resupply mechanic for AI ships? Would AIs M7M really imbalance the game?

Naturally, 3rd Party Scripts have since addressed a lot of the potential imbalances, but that's by the by. :)

Anyhow, I was mostly being facetious. You see my point though, right? You could have Vkerinav spend hours replacing all the M7Ms, and then people would be like, "WHERE ARE THE M7Ms I CAN'T FIND ANY AND YOU SUCK AND MY PC IS BROKE NOW."

And then someome might fix the issue (as we see it) and V would have to put them all back again.

But you've started a new topic about it, so that's probably the best thing to do. :D
builder680
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon, 14. Feb 11, 03:58
x4

Post by builder680 »

Mizuchi wrote:
builder680 wrote:It IS broke.
Well, it is and it isn't.

Obviously, the AI M7Ms aren't doing what you (and I) feel they should do.

However, in all the time since Egosoft released X3:TC, they haven't patched it.

So the question is: is it broke, or it an intended feature? Did Egosoft just not want M7Ms blowing everything up? Could they not implement a viable missile resupply mechanic for AI ships? Would AIs M7M really imbalance the game?

Naturally, 3rd Party Scripts have since addressed a lot of the potential imbalances, but that's by the by. :)

Anyhow, I was mostly being facetious. You see my point though, right? You could have Vkerinav spend hours replacing all the M7Ms, and then people would be like, "WHERE ARE THE M7Ms I CAN'T FIND ANY AND YOU SUCK AND MY PC IS BROKE NOW."

And then someome might fix the issue (as we see it) and V would have to put them all back again.

But you've started a new topic about it, so that's probably the best thing to do. :D
I see your point, but I can in no way even begin to concede it. Even if Egosoft meant for M7M's to not attack the player, that doesn't mean that M7M's had to be used to guard Savage Spur. Or any other number of sectors that include M7M's as part of the core defense of the sector. Those particular ships aren't there in vanilla, they were PUT there, presumably by SRM jobs (not positive, but I believe so?). Also, presumably to act as a deterrent, and currently they don't do this.

So in that respect, it IS broke. Egosoft may not want M7M's blowing up the player, that's fine and dandy. But if that's the case and it's known, I wouldn't think they're the best ship to be spawned for deterrence. But hey, what do I know? Maybe we're supposed to go to Savage Spur to face the giant deadly Yaki fleet... only to find they are just there for danger free target practice and capping of free ships. :p

There could still be vanilla M7M's flying around (presumably for player capture) without making entire sectors depend on them in Jobs as the backbone of their defense. These were added, and there's probably a reason in vanilla you don't see them as defensive armadas, if Egosoft really meant for them to just be player prize targets that won't shoot back at you.

EDIT:

Apologies if I'm coming off aggressively, I'm only meaning to make the point. I can see what you're saying, vkerinav and Mizuchi, I just don't know if you see what I'm saying. In this particular case, you "could" have your cake and eat it too, if you really wanted. Leave M7M's alone and just use other ships for defense fleets. I concede it's extra work, but I don't concede that "it ain't broke." This is an example where we "could" have it both ways, if we wanted to. Even if they are fixed at a later point, that doesn't mean they'd have to be added back.
Last edited by builder680 on Mon, 18. Apr 11, 21:08, edited 1 time in total.
Mizuchi
Posts: 806
Joined: Thu, 10. Feb 11, 05:48

Post by Mizuchi »

builder680 wrote:Maybe we're supposed to go to Savage Spur to face the giant deadly Yaki fleet... only to find they are just there for danger free target practice and capping of free ships. :p
They were just chillin'; hangin' out with some asteroids. And then you came along and just messed up all their shizz with your lack of anger management and ruined their day.

Who's the REAL pirate here?

But no, you're not wrong; but I don't think this is a point that needs to be conceded or otherwise.

I just don't think it's an issue with Jobs, per se. If it's just the Yaki M7Ms, then maybe they're not getting their RDA of Vitamin Boom in the loadouts?

Though, that said, I'm certain that I've had the Yaki Ships in Weaver's Tempest blow up my M2 Nagoya on more than one occasion with a missile barrage.

But then sometimes they just fly over and try and destroy my ship with harshly worded letters and mean glances instead (this very rarely works).

Whatever the case, the problem isn't that M7Ms are being spawned, but that they're not doing the "7M" part of their name - but I don't think it's justification for removing them from the jobs entirely, you know? :)

I think your second option (and what Vee said) of seeing if someone would make the M7Ms do what they're supposed without gutting the Jobs in the process is just the better alternative - even if M7Ms are just in game to look pretty in the interim.
Last edited by Mizuchi on Mon, 18. Apr 11, 21:10, edited 1 time in total.
builder680
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon, 14. Feb 11, 03:58
x4

Post by builder680 »

Mizuchi wrote: I just don't think it's an issue with Jobs, per se. If it's just the Yaki M7Ms, then maybe they're not getting their RDA of Vitamin Boom in the loadouts?
It isn't, I've already said they aren't the only example. Xenon G's are another. I'm sure there are more I'm forgetting, I'm just using these because they're what I encountered most recently. Mainly because I'm friends with everyone else, except Kha'ak, and I only run into their scouts and clusters anymore (OFF is over). I've also already said I can SEE their missiles in freight, AND I'm using the Ammo Cheat anyway.

If you've been attacked *in person* by an M7M, then I don't know what to say. I've *never* had it happen to me, except maybe some extra missiles that reacquired a new target after destroying their original one? Though I honestly don't even remember seeing that happen. I don't recall an M7M ever firing on *Player* ship. If I'm mistaken, then I'll stand corrected.

I do agree it would be nice to just make M7M's work. Wish I could do that. I also agree that AI M7M behavior isn't Jobs' "fault" (mainly because it couldn't possibly be)...

But it is the only thing I could think of... to ask someone to make a workaround for it... because the real issue is apparently scripting. I really doubt this is something that a scripter would care to look at. So long after release and apparently no one ever has, I don't think they'll start now.

Of course, v probably doesn't care to mess around with jobs too much at this point either... :p I know I wouldn't, but it was worth a shot to ask.

It just doesn't feel right to have 20+ ships all staring you down but doing nothing, especially if it was known from the beginning that M7M's had this behavior (deliberately?) so as not to encumber the player with hundreds of missiles flying at him *personally* at once. If that was known, and we still wanted a defensive armada in an area, that's one class of ships I wouldn't have used to serve that purpose.
Last edited by builder680 on Mon, 18. Apr 11, 21:41, edited 1 time in total.
Mizuchi
Posts: 806
Joined: Thu, 10. Feb 11, 05:48

Post by Mizuchi »

builder680 wrote:If you've been attacked *in person* by an M7M, then I don't know what to say.
Well, it might have been an M6M, to be fair (or a few of them).

I see your point though: if M6Ms can fire them, and M8s can fire them, you'd expect M7Ms to fire them as well. But...

Apparently they have performance issues.
User avatar
Sam L.R. Griffiths
Posts: 10522
Joined: Fri, 12. Mar 04, 19:47
x4

Post by Sam L.R. Griffiths »

builder680 wrote:
Mizuchi wrote: I just don't think it's an issue with Jobs, per se. If it's just the Yaki M7Ms, then maybe they're not getting their RDA of Vitamin Boom in the loadouts?
...
I will add it to the list of things to address with a future release of EES which attempts to address this issue by ensuring that M7Ms/M8s have the missiles they need to fire. If I were to guess, it could be because their missile fire probability is not set high enough.
Lenna (aka [SRK] The_Rabbit)

"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55

"May god stand between you and harm in all the dark places you must walk." - Ancient Egyption Proverb

"When eating an elephant take one bite at a time" - Creighton Abrams
Mizuchi
Posts: 806
Joined: Thu, 10. Feb 11, 05:48

Post by Mizuchi »

Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote:If I were to guess, it could be because their missile fire probability is not set high enough.
Boomadium Deficiency. :(
builder680
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon, 14. Feb 11, 03:58
x4

Post by builder680 »

Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote:
builder680 wrote:
Mizuchi wrote: I just don't think it's an issue with Jobs, per se. If it's just the Yaki M7Ms, then maybe they're not getting their RDA of Vitamin Boom in the loadouts?
...
I will add it to the list of things to address with a future release of EES which attempts to address this issue by ensuring that M7Ms/M8s have the missiles they need to fire. If I were to guess, it could be because their missile fire probability is not set high enough.
1. They have missiles in their freight bay. Dozens, if not hundreds. Of varying types. I've scanned them. This is not the problem. Besides, I use the Ammo Cheat.

2. Their missile fire probability against the Player must be exactly 0%, if that's the problem.

Will certainly be interesting to see what you find if you go digging around though... just about anything would be an improvement, at least as far as I'm concerned. :)
User avatar
Sam L.R. Griffiths
Posts: 10522
Joined: Fri, 12. Mar 04, 19:47
x4

Post by Sam L.R. Griffiths »

builder680 wrote:2. Their missile fire probability against the Player must be exactly 0%, if that's the problem.
Not quite, with default setting of 5% and missiles loaded how often do you see missiles fired? From my experience, not as often as you might expect.
Lenna (aka [SRK] The_Rabbit)

"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55

"May god stand between you and harm in all the dark places you must walk." - Ancient Egyption Proverb

"When eating an elephant take one bite at a time" - Creighton Abrams
builder680
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon, 14. Feb 11, 03:58
x4

Post by builder680 »

Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote:
builder680 wrote:2. Their missile fire probability against the Player must be exactly 0%, if that's the problem.
Not quite, with default setting of 5% and missiles loaded how often do you see missiles fired? From my experience, not as often as you might expect.
The answer is "sometimes."

AI M7M *never* fire at me in *Player* ship. Not "sometimes."

NEVER.

But maybe I'm just borked? Has one ever fired at you? I've stared them down for literally hours, and NOTHING. I've seen them fire at other AI, but NEVER at my *Player* ship. Maybe stray missiles reacquiring me as a target after their initial (AI) target is destroyed, but I've actually never even seen that.
User avatar
Alex Corvis
Posts: 1365
Joined: Fri, 29. Dec 06, 21:30
x4

Post by Alex Corvis »

builder680 wrote:Besides, I use the Ammo Cheat.
You mean the AI Ammo Cheat + Damage Mitigation by Gazz?
Gazz wrote:Ships are not supplied with missiles.
So this should not effect anything concerning the missiles. Otherwise I would be glad to know which other missile supply cheat you are using.
builder680
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon, 14. Feb 11, 03:58
x4

Post by builder680 »

Alex Corvis wrote:
builder680 wrote:Besides, I use the Ammo Cheat.
You mean the AI Ammo Cheat + Damage Mitigation by Gazz?
Gazz wrote:Ships are not supplied with missiles.
So this should not effect anything concerning the missiles. Otherwise I would be glad to know which other missile supply cheat you are using.
Ah, yes, that's the one. I guess I missed that, but the fact still remains, they have dozens of missiles of varying types in freight (likely thanks to RLSG's EES).

They are not without ammo, this is not the problem. Unless for some reason they don't *know* they have ammo... Stranger things have happened, I guess.
Mizuchi
Posts: 806
Joined: Thu, 10. Feb 11, 05:48

Post by Mizuchi »

Well, I think we've established that we can't blame the Jobs file(s) for spawning M7Ms that don't do what they're supposed to, and that removing them from the Jobs files because of that reason would be frivolous at best.

So maybe builder680's topic about M7M would be a better place to discuss the inherant Boomadium Deficiency for now. :)
builder680
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon, 14. Feb 11, 03:58
x4

Post by builder680 »

Agreed, we're getting far off of Jobs as a topic. Sorry for the clutter, vkerinav.

Well, I don't actually agree that it's frivolous to consider removing vanilla broken ships from custom defense fleets... but yeah... M7M functionality discussion in general isn't a Jobs thing.
Osiris454
Posts: 741
Joined: Tue, 4. Jan 11, 22:03
x3tc

Post by Osiris454 »

I just thought I would post my .02. I'm using Improved Races with V's jobs file and I'm scared to death of M7M's. If I go anywhere near one in my ship, I get shot at with anti-capship missiles..... to the face. :twisted:

Mizuchi you have inspired me to shoot things..... in the face. :lol:
builder680
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon, 14. Feb 11, 03:58
x4

Post by builder680 »

Osiris454 wrote:I just thought I would post my .02. I'm using Improved Races with V's jobs file and I'm scared to death of M7M's. If I go anywhere near one in my ship, I get shot at with anti-capship missiles..... to the face. :twisted:

Mizuchi you have inspired me to shoot things..... in the face. :lol:
Really? I use IR as well. Never happened to me... once. You didn't by chance FRAPS it or anything, did you?
Osiris454
Posts: 741
Joined: Tue, 4. Jan 11, 22:03
x3tc

Post by Osiris454 »

builder680 wrote:
Osiris454 wrote:I just thought I would post my .02. I'm using Improved Races with V's jobs file and I'm scared to death of M7M's. If I go anywhere near one in my ship, I get shot at with anti-capship missiles..... to the face. :twisted:

Mizuchi you have inspired me to shoot things..... in the face. :lol:
Really? I use IR as well. Never happened to me... once. You didn't by chance FRAPS it or anything, did you?
No, sorry. I usually am not around long enough to watch and see if it will shoot at me. Those Pirate Teladi Gannet's and G's are too unpredictable. If I'm lucky they will launch the Flail Barrage Missile at me, which in a capship is like having a swarm of spacefly's ram you. Then they realize who I am and it's "Oh CRAP! Jump out, jump out, jump out!"

I use the Unleashed jobs file if that's any help. I also have fighter and capship response turned on in IR too.
builder680
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon, 14. Feb 11, 03:58
x4

Post by builder680 »

@ Osiris:

I've replied here, if you'd be so kind to take a look. :)

Return to “X³: Terran Conflict / Albion Prelude - Scripts and Modding”