Going through some negative feedback while planning the next 4.0 update

[Slashman]

It is not so much anger, but disappointment. We were told this was going to be a real successor to X3, but it isn't. It is a continuation of Rebirth (not an X-game, just set in the X-universe), along with all the limited design that came with it.

If I'm disappointed by something I voice my opinion and then move on. You and dtpsprt have gone way beyond disappointment. There will obviously not be an X game like you want. That's what I meant by Egosoft are moving in a specific direction. It is kind of pointless at this time to expect grand sweeping changes to the base like you want. The Boron and Split are NOT in the base game. How are you going to change that? Pirate factions are not setup like X3.

The thing is that this is what sequels are supposed to do. They are supposed to change the gameplay from one thing to evolve into another. You have the old X games to go back to and experience the gameplay of X2 and X3TC/AP. If you haven't played the game in 2 years, why even bother? Just write it off as 49.99 badly spent and try Avorion maybe?

[Tamina]

Damage affecting damaged ships

If you mean the speed decrease below 93% hull, I couldn't be more glad it's gone. In X3 losing shields (bar capital ships) is sort of a death sentence, because any further damage would just make you into a sitting duck.

If you don't mean that, then my apologies

Because a destroyer with 1 hull point left should be a perfectly viable ship. A swiss cheese hull shouldn't have any effect on systems whatsoever. This change has made combat easier.

A swiss cheese ship has less mass, hasn't it? So it should in fact accelerate faster

[Tilen]

In this case, a strong positive correlation points toward a relationship between deliciousness and acceleration.

[Osbot]

Make turrets follow a priority system.

Missile Defense could go something like 1) Missiles 2) S Ships 3) M Ships 4) Capital Ships.
Capital Ships could go 1) Cap Ships 2) S/M ships
Or just give us the system X3 used

The flee behavior is very problematic atm. It's almost nonsensical.

Please do something like, the ship flees directly away from the single most powerful enemy in the vicinity, or, have the ship calculate the center of gravity of all enemy ships currently in engagement or radar range, make that center of gravity point the point the ship flees from.

Currently the flee behavior seems to just pick a random direction and flee and sometimes this means a ship that decides to flee turns around and flies DIRECTLY into the fleet of K's and I's chasing it. Like, what?!

[easternsun]

If there's been one negative is that Friendly fire in this game still ruins the gameplay. When there's a big battle going on and your turrets scratch the paint of another ship or station you now have 2 enemies to fight. Just disable AI friendly fire from ships and turrets. Only allow the players main guns to count and combat would not be so awful. I cannot even fight with my fleets due to this. I don't care how many adjustments you make the AI doesn't know when to stop shooting so any threshold you create is worthless.

No one cares about the supposed Exploit that can be used to attack other ships. If someone wants to cheese the game let them. It's a single player game anyway. Odds are that if the turrets are attaching another ship next to a friendly station how would they get this setup perfectly anyway.

[dtpsprt]

It is not so much anger, but disappointment. We were told this was going to be a real successor to X3, but it isn't. It is a continuation of Rebirth (not an X-game, just set in the X-universe), along with all the limited design that came with it.

If I'm disappointed by something I voice my opinion and then move on. You and dtpsprt have gone way beyond disappointment. There will obviously not be an X game like you want. That's what I meant by Egosoft are moving in a specific direction. It is kind of pointless at this time to expect grand sweeping changes to the base like you want. The Boron and Split are NOT in the base game. How are you going to change that? Pirate factions are not setup like X3.

The thing is that this is what sequels are supposed to do. They are supposed to change the gameplay from one thing to evolve into another. You have the old X games to go back to and experience the gameplay of X2 and X3TC/AP. If you haven't played the game in 2 years, why even bother? Just write it off as 49.99 badly spent and try Avorion maybe?

I can't speak for Graaf but I can, surely, speak of myself.
Being in X Universe since XBTF (You can see the "date" I joined the forum if you like).
After the X Rebirth "fiasco" and accepting Egosoft's explanation that it was a "testbed" for the new game engine I prebought X4 (the full package) even if, at the time I did not have a PC capable of playing it.
Finally managed to scrape the money for a PC that can play the game and "come in" late December 2019 (v2.60) to find THIS (even though at that time pilots could progress their skills and Argons were something you would not be ashamed to be your "Avatar" as it is now).
Shortly after V3.00 and Split DLC it becomes obvious that things are not going to change, Borons are just a pipe dream and all I am left with is waiting for the (prepaid) Terran DLC with Terran ugliness looming (and the human characters not fixed).
I would at least have appreciated if I knew beforehand what the 2 first (prepaid) DLC's were about...
You know what the funniest part is? The good things (few) that X Rebirth had are left behind and all the bad ones imported...
Last, but not least, I get in the Forums (both here and in Steam) and I see a lot of people (new in the game in majority judging by the date they joined Egosfot Forum) asking for things that were a given in the X games, nobody (but me maybe) telling them that these things are "past" X4 and they should "move on". Funniest of things is that I also see some "old" ones agreeing!!!

End of "rant"/explanation... I guess I'll hang around until the next DLC is out (unlike many "beta testers" I do start some 10-15 new games during a Beta so I can see where problems lie) and then take my leave from "Egosoft World"...

[Gavrushka]

...You know what the funniest part is? The good things (few) that X Rebirth had are left behind and all the bad ones imported...

Made me LOL, but it is pretty accurate. Having said that, the bad ones are more the 'less good' ones to me.

And you mention about buying a new PC to play it... I did that in December 2018 (I thought) but it turned out my I7 8700 with mechanical hard drive and (eventual) GTX 1660 wasn't good enough to play as I'd like. It took a further purchase of *another* new PC last month (over 2,200 GBP, or around USD 2,500) before I could play it comfortably in almost every scenario.

I absolutely believe the most fundamental issue with the game is the devs insistence on seeing everything simulated in all but a few instances. It can mean at times that the whole game tilts the wrong way with no means of recovery. - I wouldn't point an accusing finger and lose immersion if a monstrous Argon fleet emerged from one of the planets, after the Paranid had all but annihilated them, and formed themselves a beachhead to rebuild from. The game, as with any real life situation, needs a set of 'checks and balances' that help when things go awry. - If I could say one thing to Bernd, it would be to not let a design principle stand in the way of fun.

In gaming:

FUN > everything.

FUN > principles.

[MegaJohnny]

Because a destroyer with 1 hull point left should be a perfectly viable ship. A swiss cheese hull shouldn't have any effect on systems whatsoever. This change has made combat easier.

For L/XL ships I think this is mitigated by the destructible surface elements. On S/M ships, fair enough, these will no longer malfunction in any way in X4.

But it doesn't always help the player, it benefits ships whose speed is part of their defense. I once had to fight a Split fighter while piloting a Cobra, and it was a nightmare because of their insane speed + acceleration. If the same were to play out in X3, every hit I got on the hull would make it easier to hit next time.

[aurumgallente]

I play X games since X2 The Threat.

So far my biggest disappointment is a level of immersion. While X4 has a lot of things players could only dream about in the past, the number of lore details is incredibly small. Descriptions of ships, sectors, lost Argon girl Susie who waits for her parents next to casino (X2/X3 players will understand), etc. People could have more than 200 hours in the game and still know nothing about X universe. There is no feeling you are thrown into universe that has a past. In a huge world civilian economy and activity is absent (even faked one), experienced crewmembers do not demand salaries (even 1 credit per hour would be enough to make them persons for player). In previous X games every race had heroes, remarkable people who left their traces in a history and player didn't have to read books to know about them, but X4 doesn't have it.

[GCU Grey Area]

So far my biggest disappointment is a level of immersion...

Tend to agree with that. Love X4 for it's game mechanics (queued orders, how stations are built, etc), it's by far my favourite X game in that regard. However it does leave a bit to be desired in it's presentation of background lore. Better say this next bit quietly to avoid riling up certain people, but I even find myself missing the smalltalk from X-Rebirth. Sure it became a bit too repetitive & the minigame it was attached to was distinctly odd to say the least, nevertheless it did provide a fair amount of background info on what was going on in the universe around you & it's recent history.

[EmperorDragon]

I play X games since X2 The Threat.

So far my biggest disappointment is a level of immersion. While X4 has a lot of things players could only dream about in the past, the number of lore details is incredibly small. Descriptions of ships, sectors, lost Argon girl Susie who waits for her parents next to casino (X2/X3 players will understand), etc. People could have more than 200 hours in the game and still know nothing about X universe. There is no feeling you are thrown into universe that has a past. In a huge world civilian economy and activity is absent (even faked one), experienced crewmembers do not demand salaries (even 1 credit per hour would be enough to make them persons for player). In previous X games every race had heroes, remarkable people who left their traces in a history and player didn't have to read books to know about them, but X4 doesn't have it.

That's something that annoys me as well. Argonopedia used to be a great source of lore and history but, it no longer exists. Now you have to pay for it or jump through registration hoops if you already paid for an X game that includes the X-encyclopedia. Don't know why Egosoft does that, you would expect that lore and history is something they want everyone to have easy access to.

And my crew don't get salaries because they don't pay taxes. No taxes = no state revenue = no salary.

The game has improved a lot though. I haven't played since 2.0 and was planning to wait for 4.0 but, I decided to give it another go anyway, and it's great! Still issues of course but, it's much, much better than what it was at release.

[Gavrushka]

Not ashamed to admit I got pretty wussy at the end of the main plot in X2 when the funeral was held. - Although I played more hours in X3 than X2, there's not been the same level of immersion or enjoyment since. - Strangely enough, the nearest miss for immersion (for me) was Rebirth, but the jarring bugs used to make that difficult to maintain.

Someone just mentioned there's no characters to focus on in the current game. - I can't even remember squeaky squids name in X4, but I remember Saya Kho, her mother and Ban Danna from X2, even though I haven't played that game in more than a dozen years...

X4 is a great game, but it's:

Too much simulation, not enough stimulation.

[MegaJohnny]

Tend to agree with that. Love X4 for it's game mechanics (queued orders, how stations are built, etc), it's by far my favourite X game in that regard. However it does leave a bit to be desired in it's presentation of background lore. Better say this next bit quietly to avoid riling up certain people, but I even find myself missing the smalltalk from X-Rebirth. Sure it became a bit too repetitive & the minigame it was attached to was distinctly odd to say the least, nevertheless it did provide a fair amount of background info on what was going on in the universe around you & it's recent history.

Not to say the quiet bit out loud... but I see what you mean, I wonder if the game could do with some canned ambient conversations, a bit like a Bethesda game? I wouldn't touch a minigame with a barge pole, but it would be interesting to listen to a Teladi and a Paranid talking about current events while you're walking around a docking bay.

[jlehtone]

... it would be interesting to listen to a Teladi and a Paranid talking about current events while you're walking around a docking bay.

X2 and X3R BBS had a database of "News". Pre-written texts. When you play the game a thousand hours, you will see the same text more than enough.
X3R GoD did add semi-dynamic "Economic Event" news: "blah <sector_name> blah <factory_name> blah <event> blah".
I became blind to those too.

"Conversation" requires more than someone just writing the text (static or dynamic). It needs the voice actors to record all the possible bits for you to hear. In all supported languages. It still won't be more than the announcements on the train. Mind the gap!

In other words: It might not seem a big deal to overhear someone to say something, but it will cost relatively much in development budget.

[Polofix]

So far my biggest disappointment is a level of immersion...

Tend to agree with that. Love X4 for it's game mechanics (queued orders, how stations are built, etc), it's by far my favourite X game in that regard. However it does leave a bit to be desired in it's presentation of background lore. Better say this next bit quietly to avoid riling up certain people, but I even find myself missing the smalltalk from X-Rebirth. Sure it became a bit too repetitive & the minigame it was attached to was distinctly odd to say the least, nevertheless it did provide a fair amount of background info on what was going on in the universe around you & it's recent history.

100 % agreement !
I also miss the imersion. I miss the small talk from X-Rebirth, the talking Betty. I listened to the encyclopaedia a lot in X-Rebirth.Now it's just loveless texts, without a story. I don't read the texts, it's too exhausting for me. Too much is missing. X-Rebirth did a lot wrong. But in terms of immersion, it's way ahead of X4. The focus was much more on imersion, graphics, sound. X4 has shifted its focus towards text. It's true, the possibilities have become much more. But how does the game present itself? I'll just say the map. I have never seen such a bad map in a game. Tens of overlapping windows, total chaos. Unfortunately, I'm also always annoyed by non-functioning standard behaviour commands, fleet control (subordinates don't land, etc.), etc.

[Slashman]

Too much simulation, not enough stimulation.

While I might tend to agree with you, this means completely different things to different people.

To some it means putting back some of the chat/interactions we had in X Rebirth, to some it means making pirates a bigger part of the galaxy and reintegrating them into the main "loop" of the game so they are a viable choice to play. To others it means making Borons a part of the game again with their ships and stations. Yet to others it means more control over ships in a fleet and not having to micromanage them as much (although even this is vastly different to different people). Some people want huge battles and more fleet response from all navies...and they want those factions to respond faster. Some want tougher Xenons...and some want the Xenons to hold to their corner of the galaxy until they are ready or else to be less tough.

Now imagine yourself a developer. There is no way you can make all of these wishes come true. Even if you had infinite resources and time...which Egosoft does not. Oh and all of these while bugfixing a hugely complex game the like of which there isn't anything similar as far as I know. And even small changes can have drastic and unpredictable effects on the simulation down the road. So now what do you do?

We all need to take a breath and get some freaking perspective. This isn't Freespace 2 or even Privateer. That we have what we have now is quite frankly amazing.

[dtpsprt]

So far my biggest disappointment is a level of immersion...

Tend to agree with that. Love X4 for it's game mechanics (queued orders, how stations are built, etc), it's by far my favourite X game in that regard. However it does leave a bit to be desired in it's presentation of background lore. Better say this next bit quietly to avoid riling up certain people, but I even find myself missing the smalltalk from X-Rebirth. Sure it became a bit too repetitive & the minigame it was attached to was distinctly odd to say the least, nevertheless it did provide a fair amount of background info on what was going on in the universe around you & it's recent history.

LOL... I'm not riled up, even though one gets tired of the repetition of the "minigame" (a bit interesting to getting all perfect 5's though), I did say that the good elements of X Rebirth were left behind and all the bad brought in...
that means that even X Rebirth had some good points...

[dtpsprt]

... it would be interesting to listen to a Teladi and a Paranid talking about current events while you're walking around a docking bay.

X2 and X3R BBS had a database of "News". Pre-written texts. When you play the game a thousand hours, you will see the same text more than enough.
X3R GoD did add semi-dynamic "Economic Event" news: "blah <sector_name> blah <factory_name> blah <event> blah".
I became blind to those too.

"Conversation" requires more than someone just writing the text (static or dynamic). It needs the voice actors to record all the possible bits for you to hear. In all supported languages. It still won't be more than the announcements on the train. Mind the gap!

In other words: It might not seem a big deal to overhear someone to say something, but it will cost relatively much in development budget.

I would just be content if the "Little Suzie" announcements were back... (they are already recorded afterall). If they could throw in a Casino too (just good old Blackjack, already existing in these "obsolete" files) it would be a nice "break" of all the "empire building" stuff, allow ing people to relax a bit while waiting for ages for their one Station Module to be built...

P.S. A Blackjack algorithm can be found practically everywhere in the freeware market.

[dtpsprt]

Too much simulation, not enough stimulation.

While I might tend to agree with you, this means completely different things to different people.

To some it means putting back some of the chat/interactions we had in X Rebirth, to some it means making pirates a bigger part of the galaxy and reintegrating them into the main "loop" of the game so they are a viable choice to play. To others it means making Borons a part of the game again with their ships and stations. Yet to others it means more control over ships in a fleet and not having to micromanage them as much (although even this is vastly different to different people). Some people want huge battles and more fleet response from all navies...and they want those factions to respond faster. Some want tougher Xenons...and some want the Xenons to hold to their corner of the galaxy until they are ready or else to be less tough.

Now imagine yourself a developer. There is no way you can make all of these wishes come true. Even if you had infinite resources and time...which Egosoft does not. Oh and all of these while bugfixing a hugely complex game the like of which there isn't anything similar as far as I know. And even small changes can have drastic and unpredictable effects on the simulation down the road. So now what do you do?

We all need to take a breath and get some freaking perspective. This isn't Freespace 2 or even Privateer. That we have what we have now is quite frankly amazing.

Agree to that, even though I pose a simple question: If X4 is supposed to be the sequel of X3 why take away so much (with very little added in return)? With such drastic changes in game play (and I don't mean the new engine) it should be named something like "X Economy" or something leaving the X(put number here) to pasture... and everybody would have been dully warned that it is nothing like what they expected to find...

[Gregorovitch]

Too much simulation, not enough stimulation.

While I might tend to agree with you, this means completely different things to different people.

To some it means putting back some of the chat/interactions we had in X Rebirth, to some it means making pirates a bigger part of the galaxy and reintegrating them into the main "loop" of the game so they are a viable choice to play. To others it means making Borons a part of the game again with their ships and stations. Yet to others it means more control over ships in a fleet and not having to micromanage them as much (although even this is vastly different to different people). Some people want huge battles and more fleet response from all navies...and they want those factions to respond faster. Some want tougher Xenons...and some want the Xenons to hold to their corner of the galaxy until they are ready or else to be less tough.

Now imagine yourself a developer. There is no way you can make all of these wishes come true. Even if you had infinite resources and time...which Egosoft does not. Oh and all of these while bugfixing a hugely complex game the like of which there isn't anything similar as far as I know. And even small changes can have drastic and unpredictable effects on the simulation down the road. So now what do you do?

We all need to take a breath and get some freaking perspective. This isn't Freespace 2 or even Privateer. That we have what we have now is quite frankly amazing.

This is good comment, it's true.

However I see no reason to not increase character interaction and big story lines in the game so long as it adheres to the fundamental principle of X4 that you can do them if you want but there's no reason why you have to. The main reason for this for me is to bring some drama and point to the end game. At the moment about 270 hours in and being all powerful and having done most of the story lines I feel my game has definitely drawn slowly to somewhat disappointing conclusion with a whimper rather than a bang.

I also think the way story lines and missions are done in the engine needs overhauling badly in tandem with this. I've commented in this elsewhere but ther are for me serious problems with how the engine works at the moment in this respect for example my enjoyment of the main plot/quest lines was more or less destroyed by:

* Grishna (if that's her name right) jabbering away at me whilst I was fighting for my life with the six or so drones she launched as she made good her escape and the combat music was hammering in my ears. I haven't a clue what she said. So I just had to blindly follow the next guide marker. Story gone.

* Meeting Grishna in the club later the music was again hammering in my ears and couldn't understand a word she said. No idea what was going on.

* completing the maze section of the Paranid thing and emerging to see what's next all hell broke loose and I had no idea what was going on. Various people (who I could not identify) were jabbering away at me, Busta included, whilst the combat music was hammering away so I couldn't understand a word of what they were saying as I tried to escape from ships shooting around me right, left and center, at who or why I had no idea. I just ended up with a next quest stage to supply a reconciliation fleet of some kind. I have no idea why or if I could have done something else.

* The interviews with the Split revel people were again spoiled by swelling background music hammering away such that was impossible to understand what was being said.

* At the end end of the Split quest line I blew up a ZYA station and since I was present at the action the combat music was again hammering away whilst people, including Busta, were jabbering away at me unintelligibly immediately when the station went down. So again I have no idea what was going on.

And so on. This is no way to tell a story. The story telling needs to separated from the action encounters urgently IMHO, the game paused if necessary, and background music killed or turned right down during any diplo encounters.

So yeah, for me especially as I'm a huge cRPG fan I'd like to see more stories, especially some high end game drama, and a much more effective way to tell them. Hell, even just an adequate one really, it's not as though this hasn't been done many times before. And it's not as though the X universe is isn't already stuffed to gunnels with history and lore to draw from.