Single ship = can't pilot other ships?

[Observe]

In addition to external model and texture, they need to model the interior, texture it, make it player interactible, integrate the UI into the cockpit... Much more than "10 minutes for one guy."

Pigion is right about the amount of time and work involved in such things. There is an old saying: "the devil is in the details". I forget which video it was, but one of them talked about it taking 6 months from concept to completion for just one of the Capital ships in the game. Personally, I'd rather see high-quality, detailed ships/stations etc. than a greater number of low-quality, poorly detailed models etc. Then there are the countless other details involved (read time consuming) that are often overlooked in bringing a game like this to life.

[JClosed]

Well - one of the problems is with the cockpit elements..

Take the menu as an example. In the skunk you turn to the right, and there is a fixed-size menu. This is probably hard-coded in the core game engine, so re-sizing, scaling or even shift in a direction will be no simple task.

Then there are the weapon panels. It seems to me they are fixed too (and also hard-coded). But that's not the only problem. On a capital ship you just not have two weapon slots and one missile "tube". You also have turrets, and sometimes up to ten weapon slots. These simply wont fit in a one-slot panel. Enlarging and shrinking a panel could be a problem, because it could be fixed size (to simplify update routines).

Yes - it could be possible to make that weapon panel cycling, but weapon choice when in combat would be a nightmare. And then there are turrets. Where do these fit in the panel? As a result designing a new ship interior could easily only be the things surrounding the hard-coded panels, and in that way restricted.

Of coarse it is possible the weapon panels etc. have more flexibility, but we don't know that at this moment. And that's the problem.

Also - changing the flight characteristics and size of the skunk (to emulate capital ship size) could be a problem, because you also have to change the damage model.. Example - the skunk can fly trough the city traffic. That would be impossible with a large ship, because it would act as a giant fly swatter. Obviously the damage-range of the ship has to be increased. Also the speed/energy model has to be re-designed. This is not a few minutes work. I think this will take much longer.

I do not say all of this is impossible - certainly not! I also do not say it's not desirable. It would be nice to fly some more ships. I think nobody disagrees with that.

I only say that it could not be as easy to do as some people seem to think. I think it will take a lot of work. In the mean time other upgrades will be probably put on a hold. So - the question is - I it worth it? I cannot answer that question at this moment. I think that's only possible to say when the game "hits the shelves" and been played for a while.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

integrate the UI into the cockpit

A wholly unnecessary frivolity. I'll never understand why people want their UI integrated into the gamespace. Makes it harder to use, and with certainty requires them to reduce the amount of information they present. Generally doesn't look all that good either, since you end up with remarkably silly 'gauges', like the hitpoint bar spine in dead space.

There is one simple answer with regards to why...

Potential for VR class immersion. While the actual impact on immersion is debatable, there are some obvious benefits if you are targetting/supporting users with VR Headtracking Goggles/Headsets or multi-monitor systems. It does not necessarily remove the need for a HUD though (the Gun Star interface in the movie the Last Starfighter for instance).

For those of us who are still in the dark ages of single-head 2D 1080 HD non-touch screen monitors with some kind of classical controller combo (KBD+Mouse, Joystick/Joypad, etc) it does seem perhaps a little extravagent though.

I do agree that if it is done badly then it can look god-awful, but from what I have seen of the promo video material Egosoft may have actually done a reasonable job at it... Personally, I will reserve final judgement till I see it in practice (and discovered it's true impact on modding).

[CutterJohn1]

I do agree that if it is done badly then it can look god-awful, but from what I have seen of the promo video material Egosoft may have actually done a reasonable job at it... Personally, I will reserve final judgement till I see it in practice (and discovered it's true impact on modding).

It seems it shouldn't be terribly difficult to mod. There are, after all, only 6 UI elements integrated into the cockpit. The shield readout, the weapon readout, the missile readout, the throttle readout, the MFD, and the central menu. Nothing even approaching the complexity of stuff like the DCS mod. But also not even approaching the complexity of X3..

Considering this, it doesn't seem like it would be difficult at all to create an all purpose HUD when not in cockpit view. If it works as I think it works, it would take all of 5 minutes to create an invisible 'cockpit' with appropriately placed HUD polygons for use in VR or other view modes.

Its very weird that they didn't do this. Either I'm missing something, or they simply want to force us to play the game from the cockpit.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Its very weird that they didn't do this. Either I'm missing something, or they simply want to force us to play the game from the cockpit.

Well we will find out soon enough if it is just a feature that was missing from the demos to date or an oversight of the design/release.

[Kittens David]

This is very ignorant. The external texture and model are probably the smallest part of what makes a player ship in Rebirth. The inside cannot be the same as the skunk on every ship, because the ships are different shapes and sizes. And I guarantee you there would be even more complaints if getting in your single seat fighter put you inside the spacious Skunk interior, or if getting in your giant capital ship did the same. Not to mention, it seems like the internal structure has to be consistent with the shape and size of the ship for engine purposes.

In addition to external model and texture, they need to model the interior, texture it, make it player interactible, integrate the UI into the cockpit... Much more than "10 minutes for one guy." That is probably the most offensive thing you could say to a game developer. It's like saying "your job is so easy, why do you suck at it?" In reality you're just deluded...

And this is even more stupid of you as you seem to be unable to read... read back my post and I said I don't care the interior of the skunk. I just said it is quite quick and easy for devs to script on the skunk cockpit and define to any other ship a point of view. I don't need a ship interior to walk from the coffee machine to the toilet and say Wow they did great! I just need a seat, a command console and that's all. all of that is already in and can with devs tools easily be set on any ship which will give a great variety of ship functions like massive carrier, giant freighter, small fighter, bigger corvette and so on... everything that the skunk can't and will never give.

To me same cockpit on different ships is far much better than one cockpit, one ship. That's all I said.

[CutterJohn1]

And this is even more stupid of you as you seem to be unable to read... read back my post and I said I don't care the interior of the skunk. I just said it is quite quick and easy for devs to script on the skunk cockpit and define to any other ship a point of view. I don't need a ship interior to walk from the coffee machine to the toilet and say Wow they did great! I just need a seat, a command console and that's all. all of that is already in and can with devs tools easily be set on any ship which will give a great variety of ship functions like massive carrier, giant freighter, small fighter, bigger corvette and so on... everything that the skunk can't and will never give.

To me same cockpit on different ships is far much better than one cockpit, one ship. That's all I said.

While I agree with you, in that I find the cockpits and interiors mostly superfluous, they simply can not turn them off and enable other ships. To do so would make the game look incredibly incomplete, and lowers the overall quality of the game. Once the standard is set, it can not be deviated from without being detrimental to the reception of the game. People can handle one well made ship. They can also handle no internals/cockpits. Playing mix and match with the content like you suggest, however, would look incredibly unprofessional.

The only way they could reasonably do this without backlash is if they hid that option behind a cheat code, like 'Thereshallbewings' unlocked the scripting in X3 and before.

[jasonbarron]

...
Most players play the game in an m6 and barely use cap ships ...

Sorry, but that's just total bull. There's absolutely no evidence to support such a statement.

And why has this devolved into a 'one ship vs flying cap ships' debate? While a lot of players may not fly capital ships (but might I remind you that both M6's and M7's ARE capital ships), there are many, many different ships that different players liked to fly in the past games. Just take a look at all the ship debates that go on in the main forum, if you don't believe me. And if we were restricted to one ship, there would be huge diversity of ships that different players preferred. It certainly wouldn't be 'one size fits all' as in the upcoming game.

As for the multiple ships vs walking around debate, Egosoft could just as well have provided multiple ships first, and then developed the walking around bit later. Having multiple ships is a proven winner (and if you don't believe THAT, just check out the original thread with the poll results ), but walking around we really know nothing about, and so we can't say whether it will be a good or bad thing at this point. All we can do is speculate.

It seems to me there's a very vocal minority here that insist on claiming not having the ability to fly more than one ship is a good thing, or at least, not a bad thing. IMO, and according to that poll, that's simply not true. IF we get the ability to change and fly other ships in the future, that will be a major improvement to the game. However, that's a very big IF at this point, because nowhere has Bernd or any other dev stated that there will be that ability in the future. All they've said is that it's a possibility. There are no guarantees.

Yep. Consider me part of that vocal minority. One ship is just fine by me--oh, wait, we have more than one ship. We actually have between 5-8.

Also, count me in for the station interiors--I consider this a huge plus.

Despite some of the commentary on the forum, Bernd & Co must have reason to think that the vocal minority your citing could also be attached to a much larger "silent majority". I guess we'll see in Nov.

[triplecrownroyal]

Jason you keep throwing that 5-8 number out there while completely ignoring the fact that drones are not the same thing as ships. To suggest otherwise would be disingenuous.

Nanook is right, there is a very vocal minority with an agenda to promote the one ship idea as something "good" for the series. And to counter Shootist, if X:BTF had the recipe for success with one ship only then why were we able to fly them all in X2? It is called progress and furthering the sandbox. Again, your support is disingenuous.

[jasonbarron]

You control the drones directly in the first person via the VR goggle; this equals ships in my book.

I will even go so far as to say that they sound like more fun then controlling ships from previous games.

[A5PECT]

Having different playable ships is one way to "further the sandbox." It isn't the only.

The way I see it, there are two parts to a sandbox game: the sandbox itself, and the tools used within it. Having multiple flyable ships is an easy way to increase the number of tools, but it doesn't directly affect the size or quality of the sandbox itself. If you follow what Bernd and other developers have been saying over the years, the fundamental flaw in previous X games was the limitations of the engine, the sandbox.

So naturally, when developing a new game, they want to focus on improving the sandbox. New tools - i.e. extra ships - can come later; no matter how complex cockpits get the amount of resources to create a single ship will pale in comparison to the amount of time and effort required to build an entire game engine. They've done it before, iterating from BTF to The Threat, and it worked out fairly well. Obviously they can do it again.

Oh, and it seems people have a tendency to mistake ambivalence for opposition. A person can prefer having the choice between multiple player ships, but also not care too much about not having it. Fixating on a single feature so strongly seems a little monomaniacal for an X game.

[jasonbarron]

You control the drones directly in the first person via the VR goggle; this equals ships in my book.

I will even go so far as to say that they sound like more fun then controlling ships from previous games.

Edit--and I make no effort to "suggest" anything, Triplecrown, I'm flatout saying it: drones equal ships, and suggesting they're not is pointless complaining. Just for the record, the constant drumbeat of negativity borders on the absurd.

[Shootist]

And to counter Shootist, if X:BTF had the recipe for success with one ship only then why were we able to fly them all in X2?

Yessee, Gave the early games a sense of progression? Especially since Tension was more like a dlc than a new game.

Be patient. Your game will give you more ships. You just have to learn to walk first (in a manner of speaking).

[Inverness]

Nanook is right, there is a very vocal minority with an agenda to promote the one ship idea as something "good" for the series.

That's funny, because from what I'm seeing it's just the obvious.

The people who don't like the idea of being limited to a single ship are raising a shitstorm and trying to act as if it renders the game an unplayable no-buy and try to portray themselves as something other than a very vocal minority. The same goes for all the Steam angst.

The fact of the matter is, while people like me think more ships are better at a fundamental level, we understand that Egosoft is trying to raise the bar and redefine ship to player interaction as something much more intricate and meaningful. This means that they have to devote a significant amount of resources into crafting the player ship and its interactive cockpit than they had in previous games. This limits what they can do for X: Rebirth, but certainly does not preclude them from adding additional player ships in future updates/expansions, or allowing modders to add their own ships.

When it comes to the people who want capital ship piloting back, I can't really take their opinion seriously since it seems like they're merely enamored with the idea of being able to pilot a capital ship manually and ignore the execution, which involves fighter type controls for a massive, slow moving, slow turning ship. Egosoft is also said that capital ship mechanics in the previous games involved them being smaller and faster to turn than what would be realistic. Capital ships should not handle like fighters anymore than speedboats should handle like aircraft carriers or submarines.

Finally, one of the reasons the protests are not credible is because they're not actually made by people who have played the game. Egosoft wants you to play the game, give it an honest go, then tell them how they can improve it so you'll actually have some ground to stand on. I'm sure they'll be adding more player ships in the future, so that isn't a concern.

[triplecrownroyal]

Inverness, when the moderators of the forum owned by the company making the game are actively posting their displeasure in the feature choice to lock us to one ship... that is no longer a vocal minority. There seems to be the same half dozen people supporting the one ship decision with great passion. There seems to be a half dozen that are complaining. There seem to be just about everyone else who has hesitation but are being patient.

But don't spin it like we are some kind of crazy fringe group drinking koolaid waiting for the mothership. There have been at least two moderators and a dozen or so people voice serious concern on issues of one ship, trade and UI.

[pigeonpigeon]

But don't spin it like we are some kind of crazy fringe group drinking koolaid waiting for the mothership. There have been at least two moderators and a dozen or so people voice serious concern on issues of one ship, trade and UI.

I have my own concerns about the game (one of which being that the game isn't doing everything I've ever wanted out of a video game , and that the skunk is ugly), and I wouldn't call anyone else with concerns crazy fringe groups drinking cool aid. But I do think most people complaining about this feature or that (or lack thereof) are being extremely dramatic, even hyperbolic, and often based off of tiny snippets of information. Complaints about the UI? We've seen so little of it, and getting a feel for UI by watching short videos of someone else quickly flipping through menus is just not possible. You really have to use a UI to see how well it works, except for extreme cases of badness.

Likewise, concerns about trading? There was one fairly short video that gave us the roughest outlines, leaving us with at least as many questions as answers. Being curious and maybe a little worried is one thing, but expressing serious concerns in light of our lack of information just makes no sense. Sure, there are concerns about things like automation... But Egosoft is doing themselves a favor by not showing us complex and confusing UI panels, if such things still exist, in these videos. Most fans of X games will buy this anyway (particularly if it's received well in general once it's released), but newcomers will likely base part of their decision on promotional videos, and there would be nothing more intimidating for most prospective new llayers than a demonstration of something like CLS.

The ship limitation is the one thing I think it makes sense to be seriously concerned about, at least for the people who really like piloting whatever they want, especially if they don't care for the features that seem to have created the limitation.

I just wish people would stop saying things like "this feature is terrible!" without having played the game at all, and with very little information a out it to boot. It took me weeks to learn X3TC well enough to feel like I knew what I was doing, and if Rebirth is even a pale shadow of that, there is no way for Egosoft to give us anything really representative of the overall experience besides putting the game in our hands. After all, do you think a slow-paced 10 minute promotional video would've told you very much at all about trading and mining in X3 in any great detail?

[AkrionXxarr]

Inverness, when the moderators of the forum owned by the company making the game are actively posting their displeasure in the feature choice to lock us to one ship... that is no longer a vocal minority.

Mods are normal people who have volunteered to help Egosoft manage their forums, they're not Egosoft fanboys/girls, so that point is irrelevant. Them being mods only gives them a superior voice when it comes to enforcing rules, nothing more.

[DaMuncha]

Why cant people just accept that a large number of us on this forum realy dont want to be limited to one ship. I dont want to be forced into playing a jack of all trades. I want to be able to fly a realy realy fast fighter or a huge cargo trawler if I think I need to. I want to play the game how I want to like I have been in the previous X games.

I dont want to be the grand master of the Mages Guild AND the listener of the Dark Brotherhood AND the speaker of the fighters guild AND a vampire lord AND....

I want to have a reason to replay the game if I choose.

[pigeonpigeon]

Why cant people just accept that a large number of us on this forum realy dont want to be limited to one ship. I dont want to be forced into playing a jack of all trades. I want to be able to fly a realy realy fast fighter or a huge cargo trawler if I think I need to. I want to play the game how I want to like I have been in the previous X games.

I dont want to be the grand master of the Mages Guild AND the listener of the Dark Brotherhood AND the speaker of the fighters guild AND a vampire lord AND....

I want to have a reason to replay the game if I choose.

Why can't people just accept that there is only going to be one ship (at least to begin with), and that no matter how much they complain, it isn't going to change? Why can't people wait to see how the game plays, given how much has changed, before making dramatic decisions about just how bad feature Y is going to be? Why can't my fellow Americans vote even a single well-meaning, intelligent and ethical person into Congress or the Presidency?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can accept that people don't want to be restricted to one ship (I don't want to be either). I'm just so damn tired of seeing the same people complain about it over and over, often more and more dramatically.

[Hemmingfish]

Why cant people just accept that a large number of us on this forum realy dont want to be limited to one ship. I dont want to be forced into playing a jack of all trades. I want to be able to fly a realy realy fast fighter or a huge cargo trawler if I think I need to. I want to play the game how I want to like I have been in the previous X games.

I dont want to be the grand master of the Mages Guild AND the listener of the Dark Brotherhood AND the speaker of the fighters guild AND a vampire lord AND....

I want to have a reason to replay the game if I choose.

Why can't people just accept that there is only going to be one ship (at least to begin with), and that no matter how much they complain, it isn't going to change? Why can't people wait to see how the game plays, given how much has changed, before making dramatic decisions about just how bad feature Y is going to be? Why can't my fellow Americans vote even a single well-meaning, intelligent and ethical person into Congress or the Presidency?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can accept that people don't want to be restricted to one ship (I don't want to be either). I'm just so damn tired of seeing the same people complain about it over and over, often more and more dramatically.

But they're not the same people complaining. That's when it really hits you that it's not a small group that dislikes the removal of multiple ship piloting. The people complaining about it recently are people who I don't recognise as having complained in the past.

As for why can't people accept single ship? Easy: They can. They just won't buy the game.