How would you improve Xenon?

[Thomas2052]

- MkII / III kit
- Mods (BUC shows it can be done)
- Recycling economy (seems in keeping with the whole robot chicken concept of their ai)
- More H ships, and as large miners

I don't know anything about how their jobs are programmed, but something akin to the intervention fleets who seem to have a specific, coordinated target in mind might help - set them for only neighbouring sectors to structure takeovers.

Regards

[mr.WHO]

Further increase Xenon variety:

L-size freighters and miners to boost their economy.

L-size destroyer with main batteries.

Proper XL carrier (bring back J).
Super heavy fighter (bring back LX).

Xenon Construction Vechicle (so that their station do not pop out of nowhere).

[Damian Swift]

To be honest, is is kind of embarrassing that the 'Big bad' of the past games is now a pathetic shadow of itself. The amount of times the subject of 'Where are the Xenon' comes up on various other Foundation forums shows it is a real problem that needs to be addressed by Egosoft rather than them worrying about flight models or new player ships.

There are several problems I have noticed with the Xenon;

1) lack of Xenon ships/invasion strength - A perfect example is the Izamus Zura/Matrix 451 gate.. within a game day I counted over 12 Teladi destroyers and seemed like hundreds of smaller Teladi ships gathered around the gate ready to push into Matrix 451 and what was the Xenon force ready to meet this threat? 1 I and 2 K's embarrassing.

2) Xenon ships outclassed - seems the boost to the other races ships (E variant) now easily outclass the Xenon destroyers, especially in out-of-sector combat.

3) Their mining ships getting destroyed all the time meaning the Xenon can't get the resources they need.

[stooper88]

Super heavy fighter (bring back LX).

If so, please don't disgrace its memory and, more importantly, please make it capturable and player pilotable.

Regarding the actual topic of discussion, a lot of smarter and wiser folks have already given their ideas. I can only concede that it's a difficult problem to solve, as it's another Goldilocks dilemma, making the Xenon not too weak nor too strong, but just riiiiiight.

[LameFox]

Regarding the actual topic of discussion, a lot of smarter and wiser folks have already given their ideas. I can only concede that it's a difficult problem to solve, as it's another Goldilocks dilemma, making the Xenon not too weak nor too strong, but just riiiiiight.

This is one reason why I like the idea of being able to buff/restore them through a mission (like the crisis).

Default faction balance in a game where the player doesn't do much to support anyone should try to be relatively stable IMO. Not completely—a few systems might change hands—but like, I don't think any faction ought to collapse if you spend your time in a new game on something like exploring and figuring things out.

That way when we start doing plotlines we can use wars and whatnot to push it into a more chaotic state (if we want), or pick and choose who to support materially.

[Blaze1st]

Make the Xenon friendly mod during Yaki plot a craftable mod that you can put on anything (after the plot I guess) with a repeatable mission to kick off a "re-seeding" of a chosen sector.

[jlehtone]

Further increase Xenon variety:
...

Xenon Construction Vechicle (so that their station do not pop out of nowhere).

More variety as in "less boring"? A faction with Builder when all other factions have Builders is ... "more" within faction, but not necessarily overall. More importantly, a perceived main issue is "weak" Xenon and explicit Builders do not make Xenon station building stronger, do they?

There are several problems I have noticed with the Xenon;

Yes. How would you improve these issues?

If so, please don't disgrace its memory and, more importantly, please make it capturable and player pilotable.

Would giving player access to "superior weapon" make Xenon great? Yes, if player uses the weapon to kill enemies of Xenon.
However, we want better Xenon in order to not have to kill enemies of Xenon (just to keep the Xenon alive).

Yes, players like to have "shiny things". However, with "Big Bad", shouldn't they primarily be red?

[ZUBO]

In the last few weeks since 7.5 I have been playing a lot again and observed the "Xenon weakness". It has been an ongoing process over time as the might of the Empires improved but the Xenon got very little on their side. However, I don't think that any drastic changes are needed, just some adjustments, especially on the defensive side.

1.) The fleet/ship limit should be increased. About 50% for M/S Ships (including Miner/Transporter) and about 200% for Capitals.

2.) Denfense fleets (also the ones spawned during universe creation) need to be about 2x larger (2I, 6K for example) and actually come to the defense of their stations. I have sometimes observed that they can be very slow to react to assaults on their assets (but seemingly only when the AI does it, if I do it myself the whole Sector comes rushing in).

3.) Offensive fleets should consist of at least two K`s (plus escorts), a single one does not get much done these days.

These changes alone should be enough to have some healthier Xenon. You must not forget that the AI only flies around with 12 destroyer fleets because they rarely ever loose them, so they pile up over time. If there are some more frequent losses this situation should hopefully not arise, or at least not as quickly.


There are other changes I can think of that would make it more interesting, but these are more "nice-to-have" rather than really needed. Some of them may also just not be feasible from a dev-time investment point of view.

- Xenon stations take too long to build, so just make them build a bit faster. Maybe put on a grace period before a destroyed station module can be re-built such that the station isn't rebuilding while it is still being destroyed at the other end. I have observed some Xenon pockets just die because their power plant took too long to re-build.

- Xenon large-scale AI updates. This would include targeting a different invasion location if they get beat back several times. If that fails they would save up a much larger invasion force before trying again, leading to fewer but more powerful offensives. Basically they should adjust to the situation around them a bit.

- OOS/low attention combat rebalance. Especially K`s take too much damage from other capitals/stations. If you actually observe them they can usually dodge about 50% of large plasma attacks against them and are rarely directly in the line of fire of main guns of the enemy due to their high speed.

- Increased defense drone engagement distance for defense stations/wharfs/shipyars. I always find it funny that defense drones just do nothing just because the the attacker is not quite close enough. These ciritcal stations should have some range bonus to their defense drones. (This would actually be useful globally, not just for Xenon)

- Focussed attacks on large targets. You can sometimes see that a quite sizable force of M/S ships attacks a group of destroyers. Now they would be able to take them down slowly, if they all focussed on one, but instead they often split up and attack different targets, getting nothing done.

- The first sector the Xenon sucessfully invade (neutral sectors would only count if they got claimed by someone else first) get a shipyard and wharf added, effectively becoming a new staging ground. This would mean a random location in the universe would be much more Xenon infested then the rest, but it would at least be somewhat random where it occurs, mixing it up a bit.

- Assuming the changes in the first section get realized, the Xenon need some faster ship-building for capitals, so adding an additional construction facility to their shipyard will anable them to replace losses more quickly.

- Additional ship types to fill up some holes in their arsenal, such as anti-capital bombers or siege-capitals (stations are their main enemy right now)

There are many more things one can think of, and I am not suggesting doing ALL of them. Just do something to make the Xenon feel more like an actual threat again.

[LameFox]

Would giving player access to "superior weapon" make Xenon great? Yes, if player uses the weapon to kill enemies of Xenon.
However, we want better Xenon in order to not have to kill enemies of Xenon (just to keep the Xenon alive).

Yes, players like to have "shiny things". However, with "Big Bad", shouldn't they primarily be red?

I don't think the player is really worth factoring into that. In a sense you could say that any capturable Xenon ship conceptually weakens them because we can use it against them, but in practice the player is free of so many rules and limitations that bind AI factions, it's not going to make any difference. I could take one small fighter and cripple their whole economy. Or out-build them to the point I can overrun their entire faction with a swarm of discoverers. Players having the option to wipe them out isn't really the problem.

[vkerinav]

Xenon Construction Vechicle (so that their station do not pop out of nowhere).

More variety as in "less boring"? A faction with Builder when all other factions have Builders is ... "more" within faction, but not necessarily overall. More importantly, a perceived main issue is "weak" Xenon and explicit Builders do not make Xenon station building stronger, do they?

This would probably require a bit of coding as well as modeling, but; how about a construction ship that moves into position, and begins to convert--with the help of additional supplies from SEs--into a station. Fully equipped versions could have the defensive capabilities to hold off a destroyer or fighter wing. The idea being that it would start with significant defensive capabilities, so you couldn't just camp out near the construction site and blow up the SEs as they come in. It could even be a way to introduce a new Xenon XL turret that would only be active once deployed, and present at a new module at the defense station.

[vvvvvvvv]

Xenon Construction Vechicle (so that their station do not pop out of nowhere).

More variety as in "less boring"? A faction with Builder when all other factions have Builders is ... "more" within faction, but not necessarily overall. More importantly, a perceived main issue is "weak" Xenon and explicit Builders do not make Xenon station building stronger, do they?

This would probably require a bit of coding as well as modeling, but; how about a construction ship that moves into position, and begins to convert--with the help of additional supplies from SEs--into a station. Fully equipped versions could have the defensive capabilities to hold off a destroyer or fighter wing. The idea being that it would start with significant defensive capabilities, so you couldn't just camp out near the construction site and blow up the SEs as they come in. It could even be a way to introduce a new Xenon XL turret that would only be active once deployed, and present at a new module at the defense station.

.... like red alert MCV in space?

https://youtu.be/1DAOdnymNZM?t=19

Could be possible to make it pack up and begin moving, I guess? And here's Xenon supercarrier mobile base.

[stooper88]

Would giving player access to "superior weapon" make Xenon great? Yes, if player uses the weapon to kill enemies of Xenon.
...
Yes, players like to have "shiny things". However, with "Big Bad", shouldn't they primarily be red?

I don't think the player is really worth factoring into that. In a sense you could say that any capturable Xenon ship conceptually weakens them because we can use it against them...

Players having the option to wipe them out isn't really the problem.

100% agreed, thank you. My response regarding reintroduction of the LX was strictly from the perspective of being a long-time fan of the ship. Its existence and availability to players is quite orthogonal to whether the Xenon flounder or flourish.

I'm pretty confident that those players most concerned about Xenon dying out aren't simultaneously and blindly applying every means available to accelerate the Xenon's demise. Players CAN exercise their own discretion.

[vkerinav]

More variety as in "less boring"? A faction with Builder when all other factions have Builders is ... "more" within faction, but not necessarily overall. More importantly, a perceived main issue is "weak" Xenon and explicit Builders do not make Xenon station building stronger, do they?

This would probably require a bit of coding as well as modeling, but; how about a construction ship that moves into position, and begins to convert--with the help of additional supplies from SEs--into a station. Fully equipped versions could have the defensive capabilities to hold off a destroyer or fighter wing. The idea being that it would start with significant defensive capabilities, so you couldn't just camp out near the construction site and blow up the SEs as they come in. It could even be a way to introduce a new Xenon XL turret that would only be active once deployed, and present at a new module at the defense station.

.... like red alert MCV in space?

https://youtu.be/1DAOdnymNZM?t=19

Could be possible to make it pack up and begin moving, I guess? And here's Xenon supercarrier mobile base.

The station builder, no. Though maybe it just drops off a station core--more like a TL from X3--and then returns to the shipyard for another one, while the rest of the station is built as normal. This is probably more realistic from a design perpective.

While we are talking about expanding deployable ships(as in changing from a mobile to a stationary configuration), though, the idea of a rapid-deployable defense ship is worth exploring. Again, though it would need the ability to at least engage with a destroyer, with would mean an XL turret.

[jlehtone]

Would giving player access to "superior weapon" make Xenon great? Yes, if player uses the weapon to kill enemies of Xenon.
...
Yes, players like to have "shiny things". However, with "Big Bad", shouldn't they primarily be red?

I don't think the player is really worth factoring into that. In a sense you could say that any capturable Xenon ship conceptually weakens them because we can use it against them...

Players having the option to wipe them out isn't really the problem.

100% agreed, thank you. My response regarding reintroduction of the LX was strictly from the perspective of being a long-time fan of the ship. Its existence and availability to players is quite orthogonal to whether the Xenon flounder or flourish.

I'm pretty confident that those players most concerned about Xenon dying out aren't simultaneously and blindly applying every means available to accelerate the Xenon's demise. Players CAN exercise their own discretion.

Fair points. Non-player-usable ships ought to be cheaper/faster to model (and I have no great desire for more player-accessible ships).

[Casishur]

The Xenon could be split into their own factions in their own clusters. This should limit the SE from flying to their deaths across the X universe.

This could only be implemented in a new game.
But there should be a second way to realize this in an existing game


The endgame crisis would actually be a way to generate the separate xenon factions without a new game start.

The then try to build their main shipyard (god module) in a certain sector, even if the sector is claimed by another.


During the crisis, attempts are made to build these shipyards during the waves.
The attacks themselves are then diversionary manoeuvres.

[LameFox]

Sounds kinda like a Stellaris end crisis. Could be interesting.

On separate factions, I'm not entirely sure that would help or even be necessary. Based on the jobs for SE, I got the impression there are some that roam between clusters, and others that don't. So that seems like a thing they could potentially tweak with only one faction. Plus, separate factions do still trade if allied/neutral.

[Retrox]

Xenon need a dedicated fleet doctrine. Quantity but not quality? What are those I doing there? Quality but not quantity? Whats up with those many fighters? Specialist vs Generalist? Not much of both to be honest, to specialist to turrets usage in bigships, but to generalistic in their fighters.

It would also help:
- if all Wharfs/SY have their dedicated miners/energy transporters, that have a blacklist for not going through enemy sectors, in addition to generalistic ones.
- if the Xenon have a higher ship limit, as they cant do much with what they have, if the races dont underperform hard

[MarStrMind]

* While I would prefer to have travel outside of gates [...]

You could always restrict yourself to travel by anomaly only Extra-challenge here would be to find stable anomalies, so that you sort of "build" your own jump network that NPCs won't use.

[vvvvvvvv]

* While I would prefer to have travel outside of gates [...]

You could always restrict yourself to travel by anomaly only Extra-challenge here would be to find stable anomalies, so that you sort of "build" your own jump network that NPCs won't use.

I was talking about flying between planets within starsystems. See Space Engine or Elite Dangerous.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Having removed the Xenon threat in only a small number of sectors, I went on to find that the rest had already been removed by the other races.

So my suggestion would be to randomly enable currently disabled jump gates to allow for Xenon invasion fleets. The sector beyond the gate would contain a large number of Xenon stations and a large number of Xenon to invade.

There could well be many interconnected sectors beyond the original connection.

The connection would only stay open while there are Xenon around. So maybe the Xenon have worked out how to operate the gates themselves.